What level are your 5 year olds at?

jesstickle said:
It depends entirely on the horse. Some will take six times a week as a four year old, some will have their brain utterly fried. Some will be well grown and be physically capable, some will need time to grow into themselves.

I think it's impossible to generalise in either direction really. Some really don't need turning away but some really benefit from it. To imply either is the better option is to miss the point entirely. Horses are all different and have different needs in terms of management.
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where is the like button for this? I have seen a variety of babies and breeds and there really isn't a set formula for how long they will take. Its not just the physical side of growth, its their mental approach as well. There was a lovely 4 year old on our yard, WB x and he HAD to go slow as was growing so much, another 4 year old was out with dressage and jumping. I actually DO like the idea of giving young horses breaks. I have seen it first hand and it really seems to work. Let them down, grow a bit more and give them a mental break. Has anyone thought that one of the reasons so many horses are competitive now and active for so much longer (well in the UK anyway) its because they were given time when younger?
 
Supanova said:
I don't in any way disagree with what you've said, but i think in the UK in the main most people think that horses should be turned away, so i think there is a generalisation in that direction, which may not necessariliy be right, or essential, for all horses.
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Possibly, but equally the other option (the continental attitude of turning very little away) is more likely to be detrimental if you misread it. I suppose turning away is erring on the side of caution? If you give something a break that could have survived without no real harm done, if you fail to recognise the horse needs some time to digest what you've told it and keep pushing you get a potentially very confused/sour horse.

I agree though really. I am so sick of reading 'I won't even start jumping my horse until it's five'. Why?! :confused: If it's happy and confident and reasonably balanced why on earth can't it see poles? No one ever seems to have a reason when they say it. Just I don't think they should jump before then. Bizarre!
 
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Well atm my 5 year old is on box rest as she's an idiot :rolleyes: and managed to severely cut her back leg on wire (god knows how), it was very lucky she didnt damage her bone or the joint :(. But before all this we had managed to do a couple of prelims (won one :D) and had started jumping her, but then i moved back home from uni and lost all my lovely facilities and wasnt able to bring her back when uni started again, so we lost some ground unfortunately :(. Even if she wasn't broken she'd only be hacking atm anyways as there is simply nothing else i could do with her with no school. Oh well nothing i can do now but look forward to spring!

She probably could have done way more over summer if i'd, had the facilities and the transport. But thats life, not everyone has the facilities, the transport or the time to do everything they want with their horses; and not all youngsters are the same. Each horse is an individual and should be treated as such. Besides i don't care if she's behind, she's not going anywhere :)
 
I agree. I also can't really see any harm in turning away, but then on the otherhand if you go to the gym and get fit, is it better mentally and physically to keep exercising a couple of times a week to maintain a level of fitness, or is it better to stop entirely for 3 months and then start again? My view would be the former. Also, with school kids, is it better to keep them in school for the majority of the year or give them a big block of time off. I hear of teachers who say that the 6 week summer holiday is really detrimental to children as they forget everything! I know horses aren't humans but there must be similarities in physical development and learning!

Also I think much depends on the type of work they are getting - if they are not being pushed too hard i.e. good variety of exercise, no more than 5 sessions week, then i think its ok to keep them going. If they are doing "too much", then yes surely a rest is good. This then raises the debate of what is too much and again comes down to the individual horse!
 
perhaps we shouldn't get so hung up on the age of the horse, but instead look at the timescale since it was backed? My bible is Anthony Crossley's book 'training the young horse' which is probably hopelessly outdated now, but aims to take the four year old from backing to medium in 2 years. How many of us spent three months lunging and long reining to build up the back muscles before we got on - I know I didn't!! But when you think of The BD young horse classes the 6yo are expected to do a medium test, so I don't think its that unrealistic to aim for this goal. Hell I've managed ok so far with a full time job and no menage with my horse having pretty much all winter off between four and five, so many people say oh he's only four so we are only going to hack, fine, but don't just slop anlong, use it to motivate them up to the bridle, you can do so much good out hacking with a youngster, but equally can develop such bad habits that when they finally turn five and you start to 'school' them you are hitting your head against a brick wall!!!
 
My five year old only came out of racing in July is already doing prelim dressage and winning his first one, he has been jumped three times ( he was chasing when he was racing) and is off to his first little clear round tonight so then he can see a course of jumps, he hacks out on his own and gets ridden 6 days a weeks, the plan is to get him out jumping as much as possible until feb, the start cross country schooling with the aim of starting eventing at poplar park next year
 
Nicnac said:
Do you go from horses date of birth or the 1st January date? (if the former if gives me another 7 months or so!)
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1st jan, thats what BD etc use and to all intents and purposes if it cant do the 5yo test on jan 1st you are screwed as the young horse classes only run in the first half of the year!

by the end of the 5yo year ie Dec it should be schooling well towards the 6yo class level.
 
TarrSteps said:
Re speed of production. . .

Quite a lot depends on the situation and the rider! ;)
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Agree! (off to pootle round a prelim and back to new lounge as not worthy of CR as in one month my horse will be 6 even though he was 5 at the end of July. Next horse will have to be born in January so he can be doing changes & BE Novice by the November of his 5th year!) :o:o Not with me I hasten to add!
 
It depends totally on the horse, situation, and rider. some horses mature quickly, have an easy brain, natural balance, and with an experienced rider will really be able to crack on. Others at the same age on paper will still be big backward gangly clueless things.
Did anyone read Lucinda Green's article about Imperial Cavalier in last week's H&H. I quote:
Having had him since he was 4, Vicky Brake "had a difficult time with him at five and six: he refused to concentrate - he had the attention span of a gnat - and became very strong. Mary King believes the horse was incredibly lucky to have found himself in Vicky's hands, since she never hurried him or asked him to go too fast. It would have broken the horse mentally if he'd been pressurised too soon."

That's a very very experienced producer, and a horse that is now at the top of the game...
Or, we have Andrew Nicholson who usually brings them straight out at Novice at 5 and consistently produces them all the way to the top. Neither way is right or wrong, it depends primarily on the horse.
 
Really interesting thread... Echo Kerilli above

In 2011 I had 4 x 5yo in and 1 4yo. All sports horse types. They all were well bred had nice starts or were broken in by me as 4yo's one was only broken in beginning of her 5th after having a foal and the 4yo I sat on as a 3yo. Really was interesting to see how they compared as the progressed! I did the same with all of them, same exposure to new things and training, same shows etc... At the end of the 5th year the one that was broken that year was double clear at CIC1* and jumping 1m25 bsja with total ease all 5yo champs but no pressure at all, 2 of them the were lovely big laid back irish types but needed the year doing BE90 and then BE100 at the end as were still green, the 4yo went to age champs with a pro who i sold him to and the last 5yo easy established d/c at BE100 felt like a school mistress.

A year later in their new homes the 4yo was found to be limited so pro sold as grassroutes schoolmaster as did the latter 5yo as to careful and her niche was found as a show jumping super star. The 2 Irish mares suddenly matured and are flying up the grades and catching up with their age group and the one that was only broken in Jan is intermediate, (and she happened to be mine!)

So it taught me to never ever expect the same from every young horse if they are good they will make it slowly or quickly and in their own time frame. Funnily enough the two that always felt established as babies were the ones that peaked to soon perhaps!
 
ElleJS that is really interesting. I have backed plenty but they've mostly been racehorses so not necessarily that relevant to competition horses!

Do people actually turn away for three months btw? I'm turning away over winter but I mean a few weeks of nothing and then back to hacking only for a month or so not a total cessation in work for a quarter of the year?
 
Mine was turned away last year, not really through choice but because I broke my leg. He had about 2-3months off and he came back fresh as a daisy and hadn't forgotten a thing so I think it can be beneficial, obviously depending on horse
 
Mine was backed at 3 and a half, hacked lightly that summer, turned away for 5 months and then brought back into light hacking and schooling the next spring. Went XC training, fun rides, showing under saddle and little jumps at 4.
At 5 he was showing more until the middle of this summer when i started having proper training weekly.
In a matter of weeks he was buckling down to proper work, a tiny bit of collection and medium. In the last couple of months he's gone competing most weekends- walk and trot and prelim and 60cm show jumping. He's way behind in his jumping but getting much more confident and catching up on the flatwork. He was however very very immature and gangly so i couldn't have pushed him much more as a 4 year old.

Now the light and weather are against us I ride him once in the week (lesson) and compete both days on the weekend or ride if there is nothing on.
 
jesstickle said:
ElleJS that is really interesting. I have backed plenty but they've mostly been racehorses so not necessarily that relevant to competition horses!

Do people actually turn away for three months btw? I'm turning away over winter but I mean a few weeks of nothing and then back to hacking only for a month or so not a total cessation in work for a quarter of the year?
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Well, we're big fans of the turning out in Team Reggie, but this year not so much. Last year, he went out in November, and came back in at the end of January so nearing 4 months off. It did him the world of good- he is not one for rushing or pushing hard as he needs time to feel confident. Bee was going to have a 1 month holiday this Christmas- she's the sort who makes her own mischief though, and likes doing stuff and finds it all easy- the month was more to allow Al to catch up on life, as Reg is out atm on holiday until Christmas time ish...
 
I have a 3 year old at present and I lightly sat on her and had a wander around the beginning of October. Now I am leaving her until march to grow as she looks more like a 2 year old although she is mentally quite mature.
She isn't turned away in the sense she is turned out 24/7 but she is out in the day and in at night and I am doing the odd lunging and long lining session as she enjoys spending time with me and learning new things and means she can slowly build up muscle and topline.
I will back her in March for a month and then let her have about 6 weeks or so off (while I do my last year exams!) and then start her properly in may/ june.

My current 5 year old- I backed him walk, trot and canter for a month as a 3 year old and then turned him away for 9 months and then backed him properly as a 4 year old but only worked him 4 days a week and gave him a few weeks off here and there. I do think the break really helped him mature mentally as well as fill out and has done better for it. He just had a unplanned 3 week break as he developed a bad back and then had saddle issues and he has definitely come back fresher and enjoying work again.
 
i've a 3yo & a 4yo atm, the 4yo is having some time off in the field to grow into himself, he was backed & ridden away at 2, then was schooling nicely in an outline w/t/c, jumping small fences in the spring but then he injured himself, had loads of time off to recover, came back into work & just felt he needed to grow into himself a bit more,

the 3yo has only been back home from racing a fortnight, (ran over hurdles a month ago) but i've a lesson on him next week to plan out a bit of a campaign towards 4yo classes, he's the full brother of the 4yo, & despite looking like his twin, feels very much stronger (probably the fact he's run 3 times & the 4yo didn't race as he was considered a bit too backward at 2 & 3, but they are very different despite being full brothers!!

the half sister to the above ran alot as a 3/4yo & was so big & strong she wouldn't have looked out of place over fences...... they vary so much, that a one size fits all isn't always ideal

also re: pro's consistently producing young horses to the top.... i was told a valuable lesson by one many years ago..... if it shows no talent, don't waste time or money on it (i haven't actually learnt though.... but they don't 'bother' with horses they don't think are any good)
 
Very interesting ElleJS, especially with the links to breeding and "early risers" not necessarily being future stars. I'd say my experience has been similar as really good athletes often overpower themselves at 3/4/early 5 and need to almost be protected from their own ability. Whereas slightly more limited horses are easier on themselves and have more control, so look much more finished. The problem is you can't always tell and there is a big difference between a talented but wobbly horse and one that doesn't look talented because, well, it's not! And sometimes you get a prodigy that keeps right on being one!

I would also say and have been taught that you can go TOO slowly. (No relation to the above - I'd say all those horses did more than the average amateur horse.) This particularly relates to jumping, where jumping endless small fences, for a horse that is doing the job easily and has the scope to do much more, can actually teach them to be lazy. Young horses do have to learn to use their bodies while they are young and flexible and open. It doesn't mean it's the only way but there are only so many jumps in the horse and it makes sense to use them as productively as possible. It's a tightrope though!

Rd's last point is a big part of it, too. Top producers simply don't waste their time on horses that don't show ability. I always tell the story of a reining producer, talking about his record Futurity successes. He said he usually takes 1 horse for every 10 he is offered, and of that group, he expects 1 out of 10 to be a real candidate when the Futurities roll around. So that's 1 out of every 100 horses he is even going to consider a top prospect and, on the day, only one (hopefully his) will win. And there are a whole bunch of other trainer making the same decision! There is nothing wrong with all those other horses - many will go on to do other jobs, some will even shine later, like ElleSJ's Irish horses - but they will not progress as quickly to the top as the chosen few who not only have all the goods but get into the right hands.

And for the vast majority of us reality comes into it, too. Jobs intervene, schools flood, people and horses get hurt, skill levels have to be taken into consideration, goals change . . .few horses have a seamless, completely supportive trip to the top. Which was really my point earlier. There is no point comparing (I know this thread is just for fun, it's more a general comment) as no one is having the exact same experience.
 
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Mine is now 6 so not totally correct but I bought her as a freshly broken 5yo, only been taken over a few very small jumps, and has the mentality of a 3year old. She's been left a year, (got her last October and she's barely been ridden, just the odd hack) and throughout winter I'm just going to encourage her forward and do some basic reminding of what a rider and saddle is! Then by spring hopefully she's be ready to start some proper work and proper jumping.
I feel like a bad owner sometimes when I hear other 5/6 year olds are out showing, jumping or just generally schooling at a very high level compared to me, but that's because I assume most were broken as real youngsters and got brough back into work as a just turned 5 year old.
Saying this, I'm glad she's had the time off as she's really grown up mentally and built outwards like I would have liked.
As someone else said, it's really up to the horse. My friend bought a 2 year old ex racer, and now it's 3 she's hacking out 3 times a week with schooling once and jumping once a week too. Her tb has a very wise head on young shoulders, whereas mine will spook at a jump wing because she thinks its fun *rollseyes* the joys of having youngsters!
 
Fitz as MH and I have said is trainIng Medium. He was broken in May of his 4yr old year and had an easy time due to saddles until Jan this year. Did 5yr old classes in spring and has really cracked on with training since the summer.
 
The best horse I ever had hadn't been touched until August of his 5th year, but he was a natural athlete and very balanced. He was winning BE Novice and BSJA Newcomers with ease within a year. In contrast, a big Irish horse I had as a 5yo had been hunting since the age of 3, didn't mature physically until he was 8 and didn't achieve anything until he was 11, at which point he was pretty good. Most of his issues stemmed from injuries and issues arising from doing too much too soon.

It has to be horses for courses, and also depend on the rider and their circumstances (time, facilities, access to training and competition). If I were to go out and buy another young horse now I'd be looking for the sort of stamp that can crack on quite quickly, but I'd also be looking for a horse that was 4yo or 5yo and had either done very little or was unbacked. Then I can do it myself, no issues, and the horse should be very physically ready to get on with things. My approach has the added advantage that unbacked 4 and 5 year olds are often cheaper because people think they should have already done something with them!
 
Well Fairy is 5 but she only started non-racing work around May kind of time. She has also had chunks of time off because she is a self harmer :) She is ridden about 4 times a week and lunged a couple of times. She is a bit of a hat rack so is slowly developing topline. We're working on flexing and connected transitions. She's coming on leaps and bounds though so I'm hoping we'll be starting on medium paces and lateral work very soon.
 
I have a very talented horse who will be 10 next year. He has spent so much time being "turned away to mature", coming back into work and faffing around then being turned away again (not by me, I may add; I've only had him 9 months) that he has barely the education and muscling of a four year old. Such a wasted opportunity, and he may never have the muscling he needs to perform. His owner suddenly decidied hhe wanted him to "fulfill his potential", but had utterly failed to give him any rational program of progressive work - he's only ever been repeating baby lessons again and again. NOT the way to produce a performance horse.
 
Mine is ridden 5/6 days like to hack 1 day lunge another rest schooling flat with some jumping

He has his 3 basic gaits established, still just working in a very long and low outline, mostly 20m circles, surpentines etc, lots of transitions.

Jumping wise still doing odd 80cm BS class but working at home up to 1.10m but only that height last fence out of a grid etc, courses are 90cm max.

This year about doing basics and a nice slow pace, will up things in his 6 th year.
 
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