What on EARTH are these?

Am I getting old or something :confused:

I just dont get the whole 'choke chains are cruel' thing and I never ever have - the problem is that around 75% of the numpties who use them dont put them on correctly, so they do not 'pull and release'? I have used one extremely successfully with my fluffy donkey-sized lurcher a number of years ago, he hated and fought against a Halti but walked like a dream on a large-linked choke chain :) Even if it did take me a while to get through to my ex the correct way to put it on :rolleyes:

As far as pinch collars are concerned, they are a tool to be used by intelligent, experienced people when necessary - like so many training aids used for horses. Draw reins anyone? :p

But please dont have such an exciting thread when I am at work again, I nearly missed out :D
 
Alec Swan said:
To teach a dog to walk to heal, they should FIRST learn OFF the lead. They will have previously learnt what a lead is, that I accept, but aids, the physical type, will teach a dog nothing. The dog must learn to walk at your side, before the lead is applied.

A previous post mentioned a change of direction when teaching heel walking, absolutely right. Progress will be made with a dog when you have two things in place; firstly that it wants to please you, and secondly, and when you have that in place, then the dog LOOKS at you. It's vital.
Click to expand...

I can't help but think that this is the perspective of a person who has always had dogs from young pups and of generally biddable types/breeds.

When you have a dog such as Cayla describes, any dog that is aggressive towards other dogs or people, that has insurmountable natural or breed instincts - or even of the majority of biddable, naturally human-focused breeds, the odd one who just bucks the trend and is stubborn and inclined to human-ignorance - an adult dog with an unknown or troubled history, etc... the above method, while ideal, may well not work.
 
blackcob said:
I can't help but think that this is the perspective of a person who has always had dogs from young pups and of generally biddable types/breeds.

When you have a dog such as Cayla describes, any dog that is aggressive towards other dogs or people, that has insurmountable natural or breed instincts - or even of the majority of biddable, naturally human-focused breeds, the odd one who just bucks the trend and is stubborn and inclined to human-ignorance - an adult dog with an unknown or troubled history, etc... the above method, while ideal, may well not work.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you. I just couldn't be bothered to hash it out again to a person who's only aim on here is to argue :D I'm lazy :D
 
GinaB said:
As usual, people jumping to conclusions without properly understanding how an item works and how in the correct hands they are useful for training. :rolleyes:

I hope CC comes along and sees this thread to give her insight into them. It just might change people's minds.
Click to expand...


GOD i HATE people mouthing off about stuff they know nothing about!!!!!!!

Bit like hunting really ... 'it's cruel' really??? And describe which part of your experience on a days hunting you found cruel ... "oh i've never been" .... GRRR!!

These collars are very useful in the correct hands and can do no more damage that a slip lead in the wrong hands for example.

I also agree with the comparrison to horses and bits...
 
Scranny_Ann said:
GOD i HATE people mouthing off about stuff they know nothing about!!!!!!!

Bit like hunting really ... 'it's cruel' really??? And describe which part of your experience on a days hunting you found cruel ... "oh i've never been" .... GRRR!!

These collars are very useful in the correct hands and can do no more damage that a slip lead in the wrong hands for example.

I also agree with the comparrison to horses and bits...
Click to expand...

In what way did I 'mouth off' ...?
 
i saw them in the states last year and they arent sharp as such but they were nasty. Not my choice in any way shape or form, but better that than a pitbull attached to your throat!
 
Lady La La, ignore the histrionics and excessive use of exclaimation marks, you are perfectly entitled to post questions regarding any piece of kit used on dogs or horses for that matter. 'Tis true they look like an appalling instrument of torture but know you know from the more sensible members on this forum, that they have their uses in the right hands. :)
 
a bit of a pointless addition to the thread but i must admit when i have a puller i also take the lead off and train to walk to heel :o in fact - my rescue cocker only now walks without a lead as he was such a puller i took it straight off and never tried again as he walks to heel so well!

suppose i should try him on the lead again... just never have the need to walk him on one...

oh - and i'm of the - uss what is needed sensibly and effectivly to stop the behaviour school of thought - same said cocker got an electric collar used on him 3 times - to break a behaviour pattern he had in grained (and no was not the cocker rage behaviour - that just went with hierarchy lessons!;)) - never been used since and never had 'problem' again - sometimes something 'extreem' is needed - but only in the right hands
 
Brownmare said:
I seem to remember there was a thread about these a while back. Not my choice at all but I guess it's like bitting up a horse - it's better to have control in a pelham that pull the horse's mouth to bits with a snaffle.
Click to expand...

Was going to say the same. Waterfords/Dr Bristol/Swales or even a snaffle in the wrong hands/mouth can be rather nippy things. In the correct hands, they are useful and might even save a life. Wouldn't like to see everyone and their granny walking yorkies in pinch collars, but they are humane if used correctly.

How many times do I see plain old collars with no choke/half check being used and dog is dragging himself on forehand half choking himself when a correctly placed slip lead (or in some cases a pinch?) very lightly used would be far more beneficial.
 
Actually, fitted and used correctly, they can be much easier on a dog than a choke chain or slip collar because you can get a good correction with a pinch collar without much force. I used one on one of my dachshunds because he had issues with the discs in his neck. He would pull against a regular collar but wouldn't against a pinch. Pinch collars are very good to use on high energy dogs that don't have a lot of body sensitivity. I wouldn't necessarily use one on a very agressive dog because if a great deal of force is put on the collar, the prongs can come apart.

For the poster who said they train dogs to heel without ever using a leash, obviously you have never trained a dachshund. If I took them out without a leash to train, they would tell me bye at the first distraction and I would play H--- getting them back.
 
blackcob said:
I can't help but think that this is the perspective of a person who has always had dogs from young pups and of generally biddable types/breeds.

When you have a dog such as Cayla describes, any dog that is aggressive towards other dogs or people, that has insurmountable natural or breed instincts - or even of the majority of biddable, naturally human-focused breeds, the odd one who just bucks the trend and is stubborn and inclined to human-ignorance - an adult dog with an unknown or troubled history, etc... the above method, while ideal, may well not work.
Click to expand...

Providing that you promise not to tell anyone else, I'm prepared to eat a modest slice of humble pie!

There is a place, for some dogs, and for some situations, where causing pain is a useful tool. The point which I was trying to make, is that with a dog who's blood is up, and he's ready for attack, be it towards his 2 or 4 legged perceived aggressor, then pain generally encourages him, not the reverse. It really isn't, and this isn't aimed at you, but others, a case of cruelty. In my limited experience, I would say that pain, for an aggressive dog, tends to make matters worse, it solves nothing.

I may well be wrong, but aggression, in people, dogs, and horses for that matter, is generally fear, especially when they're young, and unsure how to conduct themselves. Fear, in the case of animals, brought about by a lack of trust in the handler.

For many years, I took on the rejects of others. Mostly, they were an improvement, but rarely as I would have liked them. Too much damage was done, and too early. After 16 weeks, generally, the character of most dogs has been formed.

There are, as you quite rightly say, those breeds which will display tendencies towards being "difficult". All too often the wrong person has the wrong dog, and for the wrong reason, we all accept that, I feel sure! First it was GSDs, then Dobermans went trough it, where idiot breeders, with no experience, what so ever, churned out puppies, so that the "'ard man", could parade about with one. Thankfully the Doberman seems to have lost favour with the idiot sector, and the last few, which I've seen anyway, have been everything which we should need in a companion.

Currently, and worryingly, Rottweilers have gone through the "mill". As a breed, they are not for the average pet owner, in my view. Before any one stamps me into the ground, there are some super Rots about, there just aren't enough. Too many are pig headed and bolshy, and not suited to the average pet owner. They have been bred for attack work, and trying to remove that trait, will take many years, and to what end?

I've rather wandered away from the point of this post! I don't consider myself experienced enough to use either spiked collars, or those which give an electric shock. To train the canine, I would happily argue that we need to rely upon our personality, our voice, our eye, and most importantly, our hands.

I'll leave the restrictive aids, to those who know what they're doing.

Alec.
 
I've been stuck down the side of a mountain for TWO WEEKS and no one came to rescue me!!!
Only kidding :p

As you can see from the pic in my sig, my dog is scared, in pain (because I LOVE inflicting pain on animals and I can't be arsed training dogs, gawd, why have I spent the best part of two years standing on wet windy training fields....) and I am very lazy and the three of us teleported to the top of that hill we are standing on :p ridiculously, they ARE considering installing a cable car.......

He is actually wearing his pinch in both pictures, but in the correct position as a STANDBY collar.
It is not an anti-pulling device and should not be used as such. If you see a dog hauling on it, if you see it in the middle of or at the base of the neck like a normal collar, it is being used wrongly.
If it is not a quick-release pinch collar, if it is fixed, it should be thrown in the bin.
Similarly, if your dog is hauling and spluttering on a choke chain or slip lead, if you have it on your dog upside down, throw it in the bin and go to a training class and teach your dog that the best place to be is beside you.

I don't want to repeat myself and I don't want to go into a huge, long, boring diatribe about drives and fixation and the breaking of such, but basically this collar, used correctly and under the guidance of three trainers with combined experience of about 90 years in sport and civil work, helped save my dog's life.

I used to think I had nothing left to learn about dogs and training, then a dog came into my life who scrumpled up my set ideas, cocked his leg on them and them tossed them out the window.

Just a thought for anyone with some set ideas like the ones I used to have...maybe a dog like him will come into your life. Maybe he won't, but it's good to keep an open mind on things.

And for the record, he hasn't worn his for months because he doesn't really need it any more, it was always only there as a back-up and anyone else I know who uses one, uses it in that way.
He never shied away from me when I put it on, which to me, would be the biggest indicator that he didn't like it or it caused him pain - please, he hits the deck and starts whining when he sees me coming with a bottle of ear drops.

I've tried it on myself and it was fine - unlike a choke collar, it cannot close completely. And please don't take the piss, the boys at club still haven't let me forget about it - I didn't have a pocket and it seemed like the logical place to carry it :p

I don't think people should run out willy nilly and buy them, I don't think they should be freely available (only under the guidance of trainers and through clubs, etc) but for those who think they are only ever used by lazy people who like inflicting pain on their dogs, think again.
 
Lady La La said:
No, The only place I can find online stores that sell them is America!
I've put an offer on one on Ebay which they're asking 50 quid for, but I was sort of hoping I'd be able to find one slightly cheaper than that?!
Click to expand...

One way around this is to log on to the American Ebay and pay for the extra shipping that way. A lot of the American sellers on the British Ebay are just after a fast buck and hike the prices up. If you go on the actual US site you will find all the cheaper ones too ;) (though you will still have to pay the shipping). Also don't forget that you will have to pay VAT on it when it arrives too - some will mark it 'gift' to allow you to avoid this but it isn't exactly legal...
 
CaveCanem said:
I've been stuck down the side of a mountain for TWO WEEKS and no one came to rescue me!!!
Only kidding :p

As you can see from the pic in my sig, my dog is scared, in pain (because I LOVE inflicting pain on animals and I can't be arsed training dogs, gawd, why have I spent the best part of two years standing on wet windy training fields....) and I am very lazy and the three of us teleported to the top of that hill we are standing on :p ridiculously, they ARE considering installing a cable car.......

He is actually wearing his pinch in both pictures, but in the correct position as a STANDBY collar.
It is not an anti-pulling device and should not be used as such. If you see a dog hauling on it, if you see it in the middle of or at the base of the neck like a normal collar, it is being used wrongly.
If it is not a quick-release pinch collar, if it is fixed, it should be thrown in the bin.
Similarly, if your dog is hauling and spluttering on a choke chain or slip lead, if you have it on your dog upside down, throw it in the bin and go to a training class and teach your dog that the best place to be is beside you.

I don't want to repeat myself and I don't want to go into a huge, long, boring diatribe about drives and fixation and the breaking of such, but basically this collar, used correctly and under the guidance of three trainers with combined experience of about 90 years in sport and civil work, helped save my dog's life.

I used to think I had nothing left to learn about dogs and training, then a dog came into my life who scrumpled up my set ideas, cocked his leg on them and them tossed them out the window.

Just a thought for anyone with some set ideas like the ones I used to have...maybe a dog like him will come into your life. Maybe he won't, but it's good to keep an open mind on things.

And for the record, he hasn't worn his for months because he doesn't really need it any more, it was always only there as a back-up and anyone else I know who uses one, uses it in that way.
He never shied away from me when I put it on, which to me, would be the biggest indicator that he didn't like it or it caused him pain - please, he hits the deck and starts whining when he sees me coming with a bottle of ear drops.

I've tried it on myself and it was fine - unlike a choke collar, it cannot close completely. And please don't take the piss, the boys at club still haven't let me forget about it - I didn't have a pocket and it seemed like the logical place to carry it :p

I don't think people should run out willy nilly and buy them, I don't think they should be freely available (only under the guidance of trainers and through clubs, etc) but for those who think they are only ever used by lazy people who like inflicting pain on their dogs, think again.
Click to expand...

Thank you CC, (and everyone else)
my OH pointed one out on ebay over the weekend saying 'WTF, That looks nasty' and I was able to put my very knowledgable face on, and pretended I'd known all about this piece of kit for ages :D
 
CaveCanem said:
It is not an anti-pulling device and should not be used as such. If you see a dog hauling on it, if you see it in the middle of or at the base of the neck like a normal collar, it is being used wrongly..
Click to expand...

I'm in agreement with all that your post had to say -- but quick question - if not for anti-pulling what it meant to be used for? I wouldn't presume that it's the first thing one should use for a pulling dog, but did however see it used rather effectively and quietly for such. Have seen it effectively used just behind the ears, as you would correctly fit a slip lead or choke chain. But have also seen all the above low on the neck with dogs choking/gagging (as they would do if they're going to pull anyway, even if it's a nylon or leather collar without chokes.
 
It's for correction and breaking fixation.
You look away from me or show signs/look as if you are about to become fixated on another dog/livestock/vehicle - check.
Dog thinks what was that? Dog looks at me - reward.
So the idea is to break the dog's concentration (BEFORE it is fighting/chasing/whatever - once that is happening, too late) enough for it to look at the handler who immediately praises the dog.
It's a very light, swift check, not pull the dog's head off or run right to the end of the chain/slip, by that stage, it's too late and the dog is fixated AND choking if the collar is not fixed close and high on the neck.

Disclaimer - I'm not saying it is a quick fix or a miracle worker and I am not recommending it to anyone and everyone - only to be used under the guidance of a trainer. Used wrongly or at the wrong moment it can, as some have mentioned here and in other posts, actually heighten drive and in turn ruin the dog. Timing is everything.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top