What on earth do i do with this pony?

I completely agree - he is clearly miserable and probably has been for a long time. I very much doubt this is any of your fault OP. His problems probably began years ago and the behaviours have become entrenched. I'm afraid I would PTS. He's fairly young to put out to retirement livery and as a good do-er cob might not do well on it anyway. You can't do what the previous owners did and pass him on to another child. Finally working out what is issuses are and putting them right will take considerable time, money and effort. Not everyone has the facilities and money to do that. You need to move him on and move on as a family. The Children's riding lives are really quite short and when you can't afford multiple ponies it is important not to waste that time.

See if you can get a pony on loan through pony club for a year - its a good time for kids going to uni for the first time. Work to rebuild their confidence - and yours - with something you know has a forever home
 
Pearlsasinger said:
How on earth can the physio tell that he is stiff but not in pain? If I am stiff, something hurts!
This pony sounds very unhappy and I would get a vet's opinion before labelling it as unrideable. PTS is not a welfare issue but tbh, I wouldn't be willing to loan a' tried and tested' pony to a family that couldn't be relied on to get a vet when there is an obvious problem.

I bought a horse whom I was told was a biter, she was always tied up short and the bridle put on first when tacking up. When I got her home, with her tack, I found that her browband was much too short and the saddle was too tight. I found her tack that fitted and, lo! and behold! she stopped biting (after a while).

Equines that behave like this are screaming that there is a problem but no one is listening.
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Gosh what an unpleasant person you are.
He has had a check over from the vet but not the complete works yet which I have said I will do.

I posted last night in complete shock after seeing my daughter kicked in the head which is a new low for him. He has periods where his behaviour is better which lulls us in to a false sense of security.

I've always respected your opinions and always followed your advice but I have zero respect for people who get a kick out of knocking someone when they are down. It costs nothing to be kind and makes it much more likely that you will listened to if you put your point across respectfully.
 
Thank you so much for all your kind advice.

His previous owner bought him from a sale as a 2 year old so we have no way of knowing what happened to him prior to that.

I'll have the vet out and if nothing is found he will be PTS. I cannot allow him to hurt anyone else and I won't pass him on to an uncertain future.

Thanks again for your support and advice. Much appreciated.
 
southerncomfort said:
Thank you so much for all your kind advice.

His previous owner bought him from a sale as a 2 year old so we have no way of knowing what happened to him prior to that.

I'll have the vet out and if nothing is found he will be PTS. I cannot allow him to hurt anyone else and I won't pass him on to an uncertain future.

Thanks again for your support and advice. Much appreciated.
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You are doing the right thing and I would add that unless something obvious is found that can completely explain his behaviour and can be easily fixed then I would pts anyway, you will never be able to trust him again with your children so it would be far better to make the decision and move on, they cannot all be fixed and a childs pony has to be as kind as possible.
 
BP I was part way through a post saying that even if the pony is in pain, it's reactions are extreme and it can't ever be trusted to be safe with a child. All it would take is a touch of colic or a tweaked muscle in the future and it could hurt someone or kill them.

SC, personally, after eighteen months of this I wouldn't be paying a big vet bill to find out if anything is wrong with him. If there is something, it's not likely to be quick to fix and will be expensive, and at the end of it he's still never going to be able to be trusted not to revert to ingrained habits. I would have him PTS.
 
Firstly, id your daughter OK?

You've given him a damn good chance, 18 months is a long time and it sounds like you've put a lot of work in with little result. I agree with the above, he sounds dangerous (maybe damaged from previous experience, abuse/pain memories?) and personally I would probably PTS and have a look at the horse charities for an accessed coblet for your daughters.

I'm not a believer that any animal/person is born 'bad' but it's very much a case of nurture over nature with the exception of those with neurological conditions (Psychopaths).

Look at police horses for instance, horses are prey animals and they'll face down a screaming mob!

You've done everything in your power by the sounds of things since owning him and well done for giving him a chance.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
How on earth can the physio tell that he is stiff but not in pain? If I am stiff, something hurts!
This pony sounds very unhappy and I would get a vet's opinion before labelling it as unrideable. PTS is not a welfare issue but tbh, I wouldn't be willing to loan a' tried and tested' pony to a family that couldn't be relied on to get a vet when there is an obvious problem. ....

Equines that behave like this are screaming that there is a problem but no one is listening.
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Wow this is a bit harsh! My awesome vet physio will often differentiate between stiffness/tightness and pain. And anyone who exercises regularly will know whether they need a massage or a visit to a GP if something is sore. OP has already said she will ask a vet and has already tried plenty of things. But without any physical symptoms to guide where to start looking, it is very, very difficult to get any answers. Having just spent thousands of pounds over the 5k insurance limits on 2 ponies in a row and still not had answers for either of them, I speak from experience!

The emotive last line is particularly unnecessarily judgemental. OP is trying to understand the ponies behaviour and is asking for help. So in what way is she not listening?
 
Pearlsasinger said:
How on earth can the physio tell that he is stiff but not in pain? If I am stiff, something hurts!
This pony sounds very unhappy and I would get a vet's opinion before labelling it as unrideable. PTS is not a welfare issue but tbh, I wouldn't be willing to loan a' tried and tested' pony to a family that couldn't be relied on to get a vet when there is an obvious problem.

I bought a horse whom I was told was a biter, she was always tied up short and the bridle put on first when tacking up. When I got her home, with her tack, I found that her browband was much too short and the saddle was too tight. I found her tack that fitted and, lo! and behold! she stopped biting (after a while).

Equines that behave like this are screaming that there is a problem but no one is listening.
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this is not the same as some horse that had slightly ill fitting tack for goodness sake, its a pony thats kicked and bitten, causing damage, numerous times. not all issues are sorted out by such basic horsemanship.

VitE might be a good call but I would understand if the OP can't trust the pony again-his reactions are extreme.


OP the one thing I was going to add to my first post was do the deed by all means but don't advertise it -there are too many who will judge you for it.
 
Peter7917 said:
I personally do believe that some horses are just nasty, for no given reason. I would PTS, I wouldn't be throwing money at this pony.
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I think i may be of the unpopular opinion that nothing/no one is born nasty. Some are more sensitive than others and it can take the smallest thing to trigger reactions that turn into behaviour habits. Whether that be a bad experience at a young age or pain related. I don't dispute the fact that PTS may be the kindest option and the safest for you and your kids. The pony is unhappy and if this behaviour has been present for a number of years, unfortunately it is more than likely it won't improve. Of course, with treatment he could be a different pony but can you afford to take the risk...
 
Ive seen on one of your previous posts he is an 8 year old ex-riding school pony who has extremely wonky shoulders & slipping saddle.
Yes there are occasionally horses who are just nasty but there are far far more that are screaming out in pain.
As you know he has issues anyway & more than likely these were created/exacerbated by his riding school stint, I would only feel satisfied at reaching the conclusion of PTS once I had bottomed out a work up with the vet including scoping for ulcers.
As people have posted his behaviour may well then change once any issues have been sorted.
I totally understand your children will have lost their trust in him but finding myself in a similar position with ulcers & pony bronking child off , even if your children have lost that faith please give him one last chance.
 
My vet suggested a Bute trial for my pony. If it has no effect that does not rule out pain but if there is a marked improvement on bute then that does suggest a pain response. My pony was a totally different pony on bute but was a biter/kicker off it. So we went down the vet route. Though the outcome was the same in the end anyway. But if there was no response to bute and no other symptoms of pain that could point you in some sort of sensible direction as to where to start looking, then you there is no limit really as to how much money you could end up chucking at this. And as others have said, the ponies reactions are extreme so I would not trust him again anyway.

I suspect life in a riding school has made him pretty sour and grumpy about people in general and 18 months of good quality care have not changed him mind about that.
 
While I'm not against PTS for behavioural issues, in this case it does sound very like the pony is in pain. Uneven development of the shoulders doesn't happen for no reason. I'd guess he is in pain and compensating for it. The only way he has of communicating that is to bite/kick. Maybe the issues are too longstanding and ingrained to overcome, but if it was me, I'd be getting the vet to assess.
 
Ambers Echo said:
My vet suggested a Bute trial for my pony. If it has no effect that does not rule out pain but if there is a marked improvement on bute then that does suggest a pain response. My pony was a totally different pony on bute but was a biter/kicker off it. So we went down the vet route. Though the outcome was the same in the end anyway. But if there was no response to bute and no other symptoms of pain that could point you in some sort of sensible direction as to where to start looking, then you there is no limit really as to how much money you could end up chucking at this. And as others have said, the ponies reactions are extreme so I would not trust him again anyway.

I suspect life in a riding school has made him pretty sour and grumpy about people in general and 18 months of good quality care have not changed him mind about that.
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Yes that's a very good suggestion.
Another suggestion would be to study the Sue Dyson facial pain signs which some Vets are not aware of - it would be free & help you decide further.
Good luck - its not easy this horse ownership is it!!
 
First of all, I hope you and your daughters are OK.

From the sounds of it you, have given him 18 months of care, he has seen various professionals to help with his behaviour and he is no different. As a parent myself, we can all do the 'Oh sh*t' moments when our children hurt themselves or see them being flung off. You've given him several chances, allowed spooks or given him a reason. Sought further advice and he hasn't changed, I too wouldn't be trusting the pony again for any one else to ride, I'm sorry if this reads harshly but I wouldn't waste my money on any further check ups.

It's a sad situation all round but this pony does sound like he has had issues before you brought him and they have continued over into his new home with yourself, don't throw good money after bad. I'd have him PTS, ask your daughters and yourself if you would like to continue with riding given the bad experience, go back to a good RS again to build up the confidence then look for another one if you want to continue again with horse ownership and I would look to loan from one of the larger charities that have given a rescued pony a good start, basic education and will be on hand to give you the help and advice should you require it.

I wish you and your family the best of luck, as I know things must be feeling pretty rotten now.
 
Vet check then one of these https://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/recommended-trainers/ They are all trained and certified and not all are horrendously expensive. But involve your daughter, so she knows how to gain his trust and respect.
I would say all of the behaviours you have referred to are self defence - he has more than likely been on the receiving end of one of the "sort 'em out" merchants in the past and cobs are very strong willed so that the "treatment" carries on to the edge of cruelty. And now he will be getting the first blow in - he needs to learn to trust as well as respect
 
I was going to suggest a bute trial, too. It won't solve the problem, but it will tell you if there is pain somewhere and if it's not fixable, you'd be more than justified in pts (although I think you'd be justified now, given his history). My mare struggled with hind gut issues for years. Vets couldn't find anything apart from her walking slightly odd - she'd always been like that. I retired her earlier this year at the same time as my old boy and she's been so much calmer. I did suspect SI issues with her, but it was never investigated fully as she wasn't insurable due to the gut, skin and allergies!! Such a shame for all of you. Hope your daughters are ok and things work out.
 
TheMule said:
You either have to have a full work up with a decent vet, retire him out in a little herd or PTS.
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This.. a physio can't say if hes in pain or not. Sometimes even a vet can't! 2 physios told me my mare was mareish, just rude and being a cow. Turned out she had severe kissing spine.
She was in agony every day.

I’d go for a full vet work up as your next step. He clearly is unhappy to be like that, and surely if hes stiff that means pain?!

Good luck!
 
I don't believe that horses are born nasty. And I don't believe they are nasty for no reason. But I do believe that some horses, like humans, are born predisposed to being unhappy, anxious, in pain somewhere or irritable.

I'd PTS the pony you have. He doesn't sound happy and that's the most valid reason there is. Tough situation for you but sometimes, it is what it is.
 
ycbm said:
Put the pony to sleep and get a one one from one of the charities who are overstocked with little cobs, and they will then have space to rescue another, and everybody wins. An unhappy pony is no longer troubled by whatever his demons are, nobody can ever be hurt by him, and another pony somewhere is saved.


.
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Best reply on the thread.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Appreciate them all and its helping me see things much more clearly.

Daughter seems fine today but I'm still keeping an eye on her as I know it can be a day or two before you get symptoms with a head injury. She is understandably feeling a bit emotional about it all.
 
SpringArising said:
I don't believe that horses are born nasty. And I don't believe they are nasty for no reason. But I do believe that some horses, like humans, are born predisposed to being unhappy, anxious, in pain somewhere or irritable.

I'd PTS the pony you have. He doesn't sound happy and that's the most valid reason there is. Tough situation for you but sometimes, it is what it is.
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I also think PTS is fairer than being passed on for sure. Not sure I could PTS without asking a vets opinion first but depends if hes insured or not..

Let us know what you decide OP
 
I find it a little insulting, when I have known my boy all his life he has never had a days ill treatment and since he was born he has tried to stove your head in at any given opportunity, but I guess the fact his dad is the same doesnt make him born bad. However he is 14 now and will be kept as a companion to my ponies until he hurts someone again or gets sick. He has severely bitten, kicked and thrown his riders and gone back to stomp on them several times so now he is My pony noone else deals with him and I should have shot him years ago but hey ho he has had a good life as far as being allowed more or less to live like a horse without too much interference his only slight deviation from having the perfect pony life is he has had laminitis so he has to have restricted grazing but he is on an acre track with one other so it isnt that restricted and he is fed daily
 
It sounds like all the above advice is very good, and you've tried your best...but at the risk of sounding like a complete twit, may I suggest an AC (animal communicator). Over 40 years of horse ownership, I was sceptical as anyone about these types of treatments, and only used one as a last resort....I have been amazed by them. If you find a genuine person, the results can be spectacular. I'll just get back to hugging this tree now......good luck.
 
The shoulder situation is highly suspicious given what you have said about it previously. Something persistant is generating that I suspect.
The two questions are is it diagnosable and fixable and at what price.
and if fixed does the pony need to have a job (may still be untrustable to be a child's ride) or can you secure his future as a companion.
Personally I would want a thorough veterinary work up of that shoulder and associated bits, but would put a limit on spends.
 
southerncomfort said:
He is generally just really narky, constantly pins his ears back and pulls faces at us, tries to knock us flying.
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I'm a bit confused. If he is this bad, wouldn't you have noticed when you viewed him to buy? So is this new behaviour or did it exist when you bought him (and if so how did they hide it from you when you assessed that he would be a good child's pony). If the behaviour is new, then there is a significant chance you can reverse it. If it isn't then I would PTS, he sounds dangerous and you must not pass him on.
 
Leandy said:
I'm a bit confused. If he is this bad, wouldn't you have noticed when you viewed him to buy? So is this new behaviour or did it exist when you bought him (and if so how did they hide it from you when you assessed that he would be a good child's pony). If the behaviour is new, then there is a significant chance you can reverse it. If it isn't then I would PTS, he sounds dangerous and you must not pass him on.
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May be simply a case of having rose tinted glasses when viewing the pony. So easy to do if not too experienced.
 
Gloi said:
May be simply a case of having rose tinted glasses when viewing the pony. So easy to do if not too experienced.
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Or sedation - was he from a dealer or a dealer resembling a private home? Did you have him vetted/bloods taken at the time - I guess not for a children's pony although as you have discovered, maybe those are the ones you should have. Have you asked them to take him back and what was the response - that can tell you a fair bit
 
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