What the hell is wrong with this horse??

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Chocka

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Hi All!

I'm a long time lurker but I'm at my wits end with my new gelding who has had a couple of major bronking episodes and is showing some odd behaviours.

I bought him as an unbacked 6 year old earlier this year with the intention on bringing him on to sell. He is a lovely natured hunter type (1/4 tb) and 16.3hh but when I got him he was totally lacking in muscle although not too thin or fat. I was told by the previous owners they had lost their grazing so he had been kept stabled for a couple of months and hence why they were selling.

All fine, I started doing ground work and lungeing etc, and he was progressing nicely. Also building muscle well without needing too much extra feeding. At this point all seemed normal except he was lying down alot in the stable and was always very vocal but not neighing, more grunting, groaning, snoring etc!! Also, he was reluctant to track up on the lunge and tended to tense his tail occasionally. He has been very laid back and kind right from the start.

When I introduced the saddle he was NOT happy! Although I always do up the girth gradually he bucked in the stable with it the first time, although got better with practice and if I walked him round between tightening the girth each time. He would also tend to lead / walk backwards almost as if he was trying to get out from under the saddle.

In the end he got used to it and stopped reacting although he would groan a bit when he first felt the girth and hump his back when first walked forward.

Surprisingly, given the above, backing went very smoothly and he acted like a beach donkey for about 3 weeks. Then he was (I think) stung by a wasp just where my left heel would sit and understandably he rodeoed like a mad thing and I went airborne. There was no warning whatsoever (that and the lump that came up is what made me think wasp sting).

I ended up with a torn muscle and a haematoma so didn't ride for a couple of weeks (although I did get back on immediately after and he was tense but ok). While I was off I got his back done (all fine bar slight soreness on right lumbar muscle & hindquarter) and put him on an ulcer supplement as a precaution (not sure why really but it made me feel better if nothing else!!).

I was nervous as hell when I got back on but bluffed it out - I lunged first and had a helper on the end of the lunge as an anchor when I got on. He was pretty nervous too but over the course of a few sessions we gradually went from being led to walking and trotting on the lunge nicely.

Then one day when I got on he just felt really tense - due to a combination of little things I think, there was another horse in the arena which was unusual, also some farm livestock by the fence and I was wearing a waterproof coat which I hadn't done before. Anyway, I thought no this feels wrong and asked my helper to stop so we could calm things down but no sooner had I opened my mouth than he went off bucking like a mad thing. I have never sat on anything like it before he was turning himself inside out and giving it everything he had for about 5 minutes. God only knows how I stayed on (full credit to Kerrits here!!) but I did and my helper managed to keep hold of the line too and when he finally stopped he was shaking like a leaf, poor lad. We stood and calmed him for 5 mins then walked round on the lead rein for 15 min after and he was still tense and worried but well behaved so we called it a day. He was clearly very shaken as he was still jumpy when being turned out afterwards.

His back was pretty sore after this (given I had been bouncing around on it I'm not surprised) so he again had his back done and lots of massage followed by a few days off. I have noticed, however, that he is now constantly holding his tail very tense i.e. it is pressed down on his anus but sticks out in a straight line so the end of his dock is behind his hocks iyswim. He is very supple and flexible in every other part of his back and neck and can lift his tail to poo etc and showing no pain reactions where he has before so I am a bit stumped. I don't want to keep working him if he is in pain but I also don't want to give up on him but equally he isn't insured I haven't got a bottomless pit of money to throw at investigations etc.

I'd really like some thoughts / tips on what might need investigating and how to move on from here. Weirdly, I am not at all worried or scared to get back on him but I would consider sending him away if need be.

Thanks x

PS it may be just that he was trying out a new trick and never does it again but my gut is telling me it is more than that...
 
An 'unbacked' 6 year old would always raise suspicions to me, especially when combined with the issues you are now seeing.

My first step would be a vet check with a view to back x-rays.
 
What has your vet said? I would be having him checked by a vet - there are a couple of things I would want to rule out - KS/gastric ulcers for starters. A bute trial might give you an idea whether it is pain related - all you have to do then is find where the pain is!
 
ihatework said:
An 'unbacked' 6 year old would always raise suspicions to me, especially when combined with the issues you are now seeing.

My first step would be a vet check with a view to back x-rays.
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Hate to say it but I agree with this, I think you have bought a lemon. Hopefully it's something that can be sorted though, I wouldn't advise riding until a vet has done a thorough examination, it's not worth breaking our neck over!
 
I'm glad you are ok and well done for sitting out the rodeo. No advice from me but I am suspicious that this horse, as a 6yo, has been sold on after previous failed attempts to back him.
 
Long period of being stabled, odd behaviour in stable inc lying down a lot. Reluctance to track up. Sensitivity when girthed or pressure with legs. And his bucking tense behaviour.
Sounds like absolutely classic gastric ulcers. Get him scoped asap.
 
ihatework said:
An 'unbacked' 6 year old would always raise suspicions to me, especially when combined with the issues you are now seeing.

My first step would be a vet check with a view to back x-rays.
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This, completely.
Tbh, I'm surprised you hadn't had his back checked (by a vet) by paragraph 3. No offence but to me this horse has been shouting 'ouch!' at you from the start.

I'm not sure I'd be inclined to believe that a 6 year old really was 'unbacked' either. And he'd been in a stable for 2 months? Are you sure he wasn't being box rested for something?

Call me cynical, but I'm cynical for a reason! People are ******* if they're trying to get money off you.
 
ihatework said:
An 'unbacked' 6 year old would always raise suspicions to me, especially when combined with the issues you are now seeing.

My first step would be a vet check with a view to back x-rays.
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I would be thinking this too, especially as you said he was very laid back about the early work - it could have been old hat to him as he's done it all before. Alternatively, it could just be another example of why it has been traditional to break horses at three, because by waiting 'til they are older the horse is less compliant in the whole process.
 
Haha ok I actually agree with all the comments about unbacked 6 yr olds - their story didn't ring true to me either (although its fair to say the only field near the yard was a 1/2 acre mud pit!) but hey I like the horse and I love a challenge! Also, I have done this before with a tb that was bred to race but "forgotten in a field" til she was 6 and she turned out to be amazing (although she too had a tendency to bronc when panicked)

Don't worry I will be speaking to my vet but, no offence meant, I have never trusted a vet to check a back unless via x-ray. I was tending more towards an SI issue than KS...

He has been on Egusin SLH for his ulcers for 2 weeks now so hopefully should be starting to see an effect. I went for that over omeprazole because it is meant to be effective for hindgut ulcers too.

A bute trial is a good idea, I will chat to my vet about that - or would it be best to do it first so I can tell the vet the results?

Thanks!
 
ihatework said:
An 'unbacked' 6 year old would always raise suspicions to me, especially when combined with the issues you are now seeing.

My first step would be a vet check with a view to back x-rays.
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This. I have decent radar for that sort of thing and it was pinging before the end of the second paragraph. There are many other very common indicators/patterns in the rest of your post. It is quite possible though that it isn't involving bone, or even primarily his spine, in which case, if the x-rays are clean, you will have to decide at that point how to proceed.
 
Patterdale said:
This, completely.
Tbh, I'm surprised you hadn't had his back checked (by a vet) by paragraph 3. No offence but to me this horse has been shouting 'ouch!' at you from the start.

I'm not sure I'd be inclined to believe that a 6 year old really was 'unbacked' either. And he'd been in a stable for 2 months? Are you sure he wasn't being box rested for something?

Call me cynical, but I'm cynical for a reason! People are ******* if they're trying to get money off you.
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I think people genuinely delude themselves, too, and this is much harder to discern because they believe they are telling you the truth. I cannot tell you how many horses I've seen out of work ostensibly because of some sort of logistical reason, but, when you investigate further, there was an incident or concern that precipitated the stop. The owner genuinely believes, a few months on, he/she stopped riding the horse because of time constraints or similar, in that way we revise history when we don't think highly of ourselves for our choices.
 
ihatework said:
An 'unbacked' 6 year old would always raise suspicions to me, especially when combined with the issues you are now seeing.

My first step would be a vet check with a view to back x-rays.
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This. Tail flashing was my kissing spine horse's way of showing he was in trouble. I'd get xrays immediately and have the ligament resection operation sooner rather than later.
 
Chocka said:
Haha ok I actually agree with all the comments about unbacked 6 yr olds - their story didn't ring true to me either (although its fair to say the only field near the yard was a 1/2 acre mud pit!) but hey I like the horse and I love a challenge! Also, I have done this before with a tb that was bred to race but "forgotten in a field" til she was 6 and she turned out to be amazing (although she too had a tendency to bronc when panicked)

Don't worry I will be speaking to my vet but, no offence meant, I have never trusted a vet to check a back unless via x-ray. I was tending more towards an SI issue than KS...

He has been on Egusin SLH for his ulcers for 2 weeks now so hopefully should be starting to see an effect. I went for that over omeprazole because it is meant to be effective for hindgut ulcers too.

A bute trial is a good idea, I will chat to my vet about that - or would it be best to do it first so I can tell the vet the results?

Thanks!
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A Bute trial did not work on my boy with kissing spines and a vet has just told me that they have recently become aware that Bute is often ineffective with SI injuries, leading to false diagnoses.
 
I would stop work and have him scoped for ulcers and the back investigated at once .
alarm bells here to with the unbacked at six thing find out quick whats what before you get hurt.
Ulcers can be secondary to any form of pain so don't assume that ulcers are the only issue if you find them first.
 
If your horse has known ulcers then definitely do not do a bute trial, bute is contra-indicated for ulcers and you may just make the situation worse. Some of the behaviours you describe can be contributed to ulcers, but it begs the question are the ulcers primary or secondary in this instance, my gut feeling (excuse the pun) is the latter in this case.
I'm sorry but I think you have a bad buy and are in for a few vets fees here, I think it would be worth an open chat with the vet about the possible course (and cost) of action before plunging straight in.
 
Chocka said:
Haha ok I actually agree with all the comments about unbacked 6 yr olds - their story didn't ring true to me either (although its fair to say the only field near the yard was a 1/2 acre mud pit!) but hey I like the horse and I love a challenge! Also, I have done this before with a tb that was bred to race but "forgotten in a field" til she was 6 and she turned out to be amazing (although she too had a tendency to bronc when panicked)

Don't worry I will be speaking to my vet but, no offence meant, I have never trusted a vet to check a back unless via x-ray. I was tending more towards an SI issue than KS...

He has been on Egusin SLH for his ulcers for 2 weeks now so hopefully should be starting to see an effect. I went for that over omeprazole because it is meant to be effective for hindgut ulcers too.

A bute trial is a good idea, I will chat to my vet about that - or would it be best to do it first so I can tell the vet the results?

Thanks!
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You are quite within your rights and horses in trouble DO need someone to take a chance on them. But keep in mind that a "challenge" for you may be no fun at all for the horse.

Re vets . . .they aren't magicians. They will do the tests they can do and if the results are negative or questionable then that does not necessarily mean the horse is "100% okay". As the horse is not insured then you will have to decide with what/how far to proceed. For what it's worth, I know horses that have been diagnosed unquestionably with serious issues that were pronounced sound previously by "back men". See comment on vets above - no one knows everything! Use all your resources.

Re ulcers . . . if the horse has a serious problem your current regime won't sort it. It may help, but it's unlikely to cure, particularly if the ulcers are in concert with another issue. Be aware, too, that bute can cause an ulcer flair up so you may address one problem at the risk of increasing another. If you are going to do a bute trial, do it properly with sufficient dosage and for a reasonable time. Too many people give the horse a few doses and then say, "Well it can't be pain as he's not all better." You are looking for improvement, not cure.

Re pain response . . .horses are stoic by nature. You say he doesn't show any pain response doing "normal" activities but then, if it's chronic, he wouldn't, would he? Even people don't just stop functioning when they are in pain. To stop doing things like raise his tail, he would have to have something very serious and probably acute going on, which is obviously not the case. Doesn't mean much other than that.

As I said, how you proceed is up to you. I guess I can see writing off the under saddle issues as "behavioural" but the tail holding . . .?

Almost always with physical issues that effect riding etc there is both a medical and "behavioural" component. We train horses using negative reinforcement so pain trains behaviours into them, usually undesirable ones (although some horses can seem unnaturally quite and unexpressive, at least until pushed) and reversing the process is quite often not as simple as removing the cause of the pain.

If the horse has a serious problem - found or not - you may very well be able to work out a riding and management program that allows him to do the work. There are lots of working horses that are in some level of discomfort. You have to decide what you are willing to do/risk to get that done. And if the horse is eventually to be sold tread VERY carefully. That's the sort of thing that ends in tears and court.

Good luck. More than most I am inclined to soldier on with these things. I hope you can find a way to help him live a good, pain free(isn) life.
 
Common sense would have been to have got a vet right at the start. Another fine example of the fad of 'back people and massage' being the first port of call. Poor horse. Hope he gets better soon.
 
Personally, I would be suspecting KS or ulcers. If he were mine, I would talk to the vet, and get him booked in for a gastroscope, and a back xray at the same time (thus saving on two trips to the vet), and discuss potential of other xrays if the gastroscope and xray don't show anything up.

I also like thermal imaging
 
I think my first port of call if you do decide you want to give your horse 100% is get online/phone and get some insurance sorted. Then have an 'off the record' talk with your vet as to the next steps.

Im no expert in any shape or form but it doesn't sound like there will be an easy or cheap answer to your issues. Maybe im mean and heartless but if he has managed to go through backing and breaking he will survive a couple weeks turned away, whilst you wait until you can claim on insurance.

Good luck and I hope you can get him back on the road to health xx
 
BigYellowHorse said:
I think my first port of call if you do decide you want to give your horse 100% is get online/phone and get some insurance sorted. Then have an 'off the record' talk with your vet as to the next steps.

Im no expert in any shape or form but it doesn't sound like there will be an easy or cheap answer to your issues. Maybe im mean and heartless but if he has managed to go through backing and breaking he will survive a couple weeks turned away, whilst you wait until you can claim on insurance.

Good luck and I hope you can get him back on the road to health xx
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That is called fraud and a contributing factor to the huge premiums that the rest of us pay
 
I didnt think of it like that... just getting a horse the treatment it deserves. The horse hasnt had a diagnosis of any form therefore there's nothing to disclose at this moment in time. You could say about the back person but even then the horse got the all clear - as it reads.

If a diagnosis had been made but the lady chose not to say then I would see that a fraud. No diagnosis has been made other than by people on here.
 
BigYellowHorse said:
I didnt think of it like that... just getting a horse the treatment it deserves. The horse hasnt had a diagnosis of any form therefore there's nothing to disclose at this moment in time. You could say about the back person but even then the horse got the all clear - as it reads.

If a diagnosis had been made but the lady chose not to say then I would see that a fraud. No diagnosis has been made other than by people on here.
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The horse should have had the treatment it deserves with or without insurance.
 
Moomin1 said:
The horse should have had the treatment it deserves with or without insurance.
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Wholeheartedly agree but not everyone can afford to provide it.

Insurance/putting a certain amount away each month or week should be factored into basic care and I think you should question whether you can afford to actually keep a horse if you can't.

I would never advocate fraud but on this occasion with no diagnosis and the poster actually saying it being a possible hiccup in training I think taking out insurance would be a very good step to take.
 
BigYellowHorse said:
Wholeheartedly agree but not everyone can afford to provide it.

Insurance/putting a certain amount away each month or week should be factored into basic care and I think you should question whether you can afford to actually keep a horse if you can't.

I would never advocate fraud but on this occasion with no diagnosis and the poster actually saying it being a possible hiccup in training I think taking out insurance would be a very good step to take.
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Put like that I agree. :)
 
I too would be getting back x-rays as my first port of call. My KS horse was always a grumpy sod to girth up and could buck/explode like nobody's business when he got tense. He also did the tail pinning thing.
 
To be totally blunt you have to question with its history if this horse is worth messing about with . I dont know how experienced the OP is but there are riders who think they can sort out any thing and they are not all fixable.
All the warning signs were there with this one and most would have steered well clear they are not all fixable and the skill comes in knowing what can and cant be fixed. I expect several people will have already had a go and the physical issues are a red herring.
Sorry to be blunt but the first middle and last question should have been why is a six yo gelding unbroken!!!!! Even if caused by a physical condition I am sure somebody in its history has already tried fixing it.
 
I'm afraid I agree you've been sold a pig in a poke. Either, they have tried to back him and stuffed him up, or there is something badly wrong with him physically or both. Hopefully he is already insured so going down the vet route will not be a financial hardship.
 
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