:( What the hell was that? Horse attacked other horse hacking

Exasperated said:
Tbh, if the OP were pregnant, an equine terrorist is the last thing she’d need.
It doesn’t make much difference whether this horse is reacting to pain now, has a memory of pain, has defective eyesight, PTSD or any damn thing else - sadly, he is currently a dangerous liability - for whatever reason.
If his owner wants to have him examined, blood tested, xrayed, scanned, biopsied, analysed by a behaviourist, saddle fitter, equine dentist, re schooled, or whatever - that is up to the owner, but not the OP (who has had enough misery with recent losses, anyway).
He isn’t being defensive or snakey, this horse is actively attacking.
This is highly unusual, serious red flag stuff, it’s not behaviour to be ‘wondered’ about or pondered over, but requires a decisive response before real damage occurs.
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I agree tbh. If he was mine, I'd get a good vet check and if that didn't throw up anything obvious I'd PTS.
 
bonny said:
The horse is 16 and well known by the OP and the owner and this sounds completely out of character. He might never do it again, he might which is why anyone dealing with him needs to be careful but all horses are capable of causing harm and shouldn’t ever be completely trusted.
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He's done it twice so it wasn't out of character the second time and the OP will now be liable, possibly criminally, if he does it again and kills someone. His "foible" is impossible to prevent unless he is kept compete isolated. No amount of carefulness can prevent a horse from giving no warning and attacking backwards.

It's his goto position now for a trigger which has not yet been identified. Who knows when that trigger will present itself again. If it's pain and he's 16, that's almost certain in future.

No horse's life is worth risking a human's life for.
.
 
The horse has recently moved and lost its new companion in very quick succession. It's probably reacting to that change.

However, the way this horse chooses to express that reaction isn't something I would want in my life.

This isn't your horse, it's on loan and that is the advantage of a loan. I would send the horse back, with a description on email of what happened and why you feel unsafe. Then you've fulfilled your duties by making sure the owner knows (and can prove that) and the owner can make the best decision for the horse.

If mine did that, it wouldn't be ridden. If it did it in the field, it would be pts.

Even if the horse had the most reasonable trigger for that kind of behavior - whether that is moving and an unsettling loss, or pain or neurological reason - the behavior itself is unsafe. The reason is almost irrelevant. If my horses are unsettled and upset, or in pain or box rested, the worst I get is one that bounces about like tigger and the other who will snake her head and give a mare stare. In the worst of circumstances, they are never aggressive. You really don't have to tolerate that.

I'm so very sorry to hear about your magnificent grey. I hope you're ok.
 
Waiting to make a plan, I had a converastion with the Y/O yesterday who is a friend and as i say Ive helped on the yard now and then, She was the go- between or introducer for the loan and the owner (also a good friend of hers) is on holiday so i felt it appropriate to discuss with her. She was great, totally agree's with how I'm feeling about the whole thing, which is a massive relief. I once put a horse on loan who did something terrible that he had never hinted at before and i admit i didnt believe the lady loaning him at the time- until he did it again back at mine.

So the owner returns today I think.

Thank you for the kind words re. poor old grey horse :( It truley has been a rubbish few weeks.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Waiting to make a plan, I had a converastion with the Y/O yesterday who is a friend and as i say Ive helped on the yard now and then, She was the go- between or introducer for the loan and the owner (also a good friend of hers) is on holiday so i felt it appropriate to discuss with her. She was great, totally agree's with how I'm feeling about the whole thing, which is a massive relief. I once put a horse on loan who did something terrible that he had never hinted at before and i admit i didnt believe the lady loaning him at the time- until he did it again back at mine.

So the owner returns today I think.

Thank you for the kind words re. poor old grey horse :( It truley has been a rubbish few weeks.
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It’s rotten for you, any horse keeper would sympathise, and the Y/O clearly understands.
At least you’ll have less stress once this horse is no longer on your property or your responsibility, absolutely the right decision - chin up!
 
I too think you are doing the right thing.

I sold my best mare, who'd taken me to Intermediate BE and what is now CCI**, because at a small dressage competition she nearly kicked the head off a small child on a pony.

She would deliberately aim at stuff in a collecting ring, such as a dressage marker or suchlike. On that occasion, she deliberately aimed at a kid.

She was fit, sound, vet could find nothing wrong. I decided that now she was fitter I was no longer a good enough rider for her and sold her, full disclosure and vetting, to a fabulous young rider who had a wonderful first year.

I was glad for everyone.

But, the year after, her behaviour escalated and she was found to have a cancerous ovary. I believe it was pain all along.

I was sad for everyone concerned, but could not have known. It was the right thing for me to sell at that time though. I was not able to take responsibility for her at all times.
 
IrishMilo said:
Sorry @Red-1 but there’s no way I could in good faith sell a horse who did that. The horse in all consciousness tried to double barrel a child and you passed it on?
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Yes, to someone who was looking to join the British team... They had a wonderful first year and she went a lot better for them than she did me. We all thought we'd cracked it, especially as she SJ all winter (affiliated newcomers) well, including tight collecting rings.

She bucked and twisted in a collecting ring with me, on that occasion, at a small unaffiliated competition, where it was a packed collecting ring with mixed horses and ponies, and the kid on a pony turned far too close behind her. She was not suitable for that environment. She was great at home, out hacking... it was just at competitions where she was hot. She'd never aimed at a person riding in the arena before, but a 13.2 is not to be ridden near her ever again, and I didn't want to just do professional level events where the collecting rings are half an acre and generally sensible adults only.

It's not like she ran randomly backwards to a small child, one rode up her ass. That reaction was understandable but could not risk being repeated, so she was permanently removed from that situation. Obviously, had I known the issue, I would have tried to resolve it myself, with the ovary removal that the new owners did!
 
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Red-1 said:
Yes, to someone who was looking to join the British team... They had a wonderful first year and she went a lot better for them than she did me. We all thought we'd cracked it, especially as she SJ all winter (affiliated newcomers) well, including tight collecting rings.

She bucked and twisted in a collecting ring with me, on that occasion, at a small unaffiliated competition, where it was a packed collecting ring with mixed horses and ponies, and the kid on a pony turned far too close behind her. She was not suitable for that environment. She was great at home, out hacking... it was just at competitions where she was hot. She'd never aimed at a person riding in the arena before, but a 13.2 is not to be ridden near her ever again, and I didn't want to just do professional level events where the collecting rings are half an acre and generally sensible adults only.

It's not like she ran randomly backwards to a small child, one rode up her ass. That reaction was understandable but could not risk being repeated, so she was permanently removed from that situation. Obviously, had I known the issue, I would have tried to resolve it myself, with the ovary removal that the new owners did
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Tbf if anyone rode up Farans butt they would get both barrels 👀 it’s entirely inappropriate to ride your horse up someone’s butt.

I had to educate some younger riders at the last jumping competition for my RC as they had no concept of left to left, no concept of fastest gait on the track and no concept of anyone shouting ‘jumping’ and naming the jump. They were just zooming about on their ponies almost aiming them at people in a sense and the parents were too busy gassing at the coffee van to actually watch them.

They were well educated once I was done. The gate steward just let me get on with it then backed me to the parents when the kids complained. I don’t know what RS’s are teaching kids as that’s what I got taught when I was a wean.
 
It's not completely unheard of to have no body language obvious before kicking. We were on livery with a mare who would nicker and call other horses and then when they came over double barrel at them. Never did work out why!
 
Catching up on the forum!! Sorry to hear you lost Alfie OP and sorry to read about the loan horse suddenly behaving the way he did, most worrying when it seems rather out of character. I am not surprised you have sent him back to his owner it is up to ?her to investigate/treat or make the PTS decision.

Having owned a horse who I purchased well handled but unbacked at 3 whose behaviour was fine until it started to become more and more unpredictable despite an analgesic trial for a few weeks, I had him PTS at 8. It was very sad as he was talented and I had spent huge amounts of money on training, then on vet investigations but as far as I was concerned there could only be one course of action.
 
He’s not gone back yet. Decisions are being made, it’s been a shock for her to come home to this and I don’t want her to feel pushed or pressured into anything.
He’s a sweet boy but obviously somethings wrong somewhere.
We have half discussed a few options going forward but he won’t be staying here and as far as I understand he won’t be ridden again.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Different colours - The first a big black the second a little chestnut.

I did suggset pain but fiend just pointed out wouldnt he just fire me or run off or something rather than go out of his way to attack. Anyhow with all I've just been through withbthe other horse investigation wise etc I'm not able to start another goose chase. I've only had him weeks, I can't emotinally deal with another going wrong right now, but even more I cant deal with injuring someone so I'm bowing out.

I'm so sad. This time a fortnight ago I had two horses actually in work at home. In the space of a week there will be none. I've just offered to go out on foot with my neighbour tomorrow as she doesnt ride alone and is in the same situ as me- horses kept at home.
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I'm sorry OP it sounds like you're having a really tough time and this is a tough call you didn't need to have to make :(

I hope you and the owner can find a safe solution for the TB, and a sweet, straightforward hacking companion finds ypu soon.
 
Hi , Is he just showing this behaviour to other geldings? Is there a mare n season nearby? Could he be a rig?
 
He wouldn’t have got to 16 as a rig i don't think, I think true rigs are actually very rare but he’s been on a big mixed yard the past 7 years including turned out with mares. He's with a mare here and shows no interest.
I have only hacked with geldings so yes, the two he has done it with were geldings but I have no idea if a mare would make a difference.
 
We have the perfect solution which I'm really happy with. I posted recently about my two out in a field locally and needing to bring one home and find alternative arangements as couldnt leave the other alone and couldnt keep paying for two?
Well I'm going to bring the one that is potentially rideable home and this horse will go there and live with my TB which will be a far better match, (weight wise) Its a perfect solution. I'll still look after him or mainly look after him and can keep the field on without the full expense (his owner will pay their half)
He will be pts at some point i think but no ones ready just yet and although my TB is lovely, he's a nanny type, No one will ever mess with him but he wont be nasty for no reason either so this should work really well all round.
Except for the fact I no longer have the option of nice chilled hacks, I have a fat loon to contend with.
No quite sure how to manage the switch over but will have a think about that.
 
Polos Mum said:
If the owner is genuinely surprised then I would think some sort of brain injury / tumor. I had a mare that having been broken and ridden away sweetly started throwing herself over backwards at us (when long reining) - knocked herself out cold on the metal school gate one time (my friend and I thought she was dead). then eventually got up, shook and reared over again
Vet thought tumor was the cause then.

So sorry for you.
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I agree with this. If he's never genuinely showed this behaviour before, I'd say tumour, too. If it's on the pituitary, that could lead to aggressive behaviour, due to pressure on areas responsible for emotional regulation.
 
poiuytrewq said:
We have the perfect solution which I'm really happy with. I posted recently about my two out in a field locally and needing to bring one home and find alternative arangements as couldnt leave the other alone and couldnt keep paying for two?
Well I'm going to bring the one that is potentially rideable home and this horse will go there and live with my TB which will be a far better match, (weight wise) Its a perfect solution. I'll still look after him or mainly look after him and can keep the field on without the full expense (his owner will pay their half)
He will be pts at some point i think but no ones ready just yet and although my TB is lovely, he's a nanny type, No one will ever mess with him but he wont be nasty for no reason either so this should work really well all round.
Except for the fact I no longer have the option of nice chilled hacks, I have a fat loon to contend with.
No quite sure how to manage the switch over but will have a think about that.
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I'm really glad you've found a solution.

Not sure what you have for transport, but maybe consider a professional transport company so you have experienced hands on deck just in case?
 
meandmyself said:
I'm really glad you've found a solution.

Not sure what you have for transport, but maybe consider a professional transport company so you have experienced hands on deck just in case?
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He’ll be fine I’ve taken him in my lorry before and he is probably the best traveller I’ve ever had. It’s literally 5 minutes drive.
It’s more the logistics of swapping without leaving one alone.
I think I’ll bring both mine back home then introduce the two TB’s and later on take them back down together.
Might just need a hand with the unloading and releasing bit.
 
poiuytrewq said:
He’ll be fine I’ve taken him in my lorry before and he is probably the best traveller I’ve ever had. It’s literally 5 minutes drive.
It’s more the logistics of swapping without leaving one alone.
I think I’ll bring both mine back home then introduce the two TB’s and later on take them back down together.
Might just need a hand with the unloading and releasing bit.
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Yep, it was the unloading and swapping bits I was thinking of for you! ☺️
 
meandmyself said:
Yep, it was the unloading and swapping bits I was thinking of for you! ☺️
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Sorry, I misunderstood! O/H would help, hes not horsey but fairly able. I think these two will be a bit much though, he appears to have a built in fear of bay TB's 😆 statrted many years ago when one went for him when i wasn't there, ever since apparently they all have the "same evil eyes" :oops: He's happily swing off a naughty Ziggy, who would probably be the sillier/stronger but he's not bay so its all fine!
 
I’m afraid that I’m going to be the word of caution in that I think you are most unwise in contining to care for such an unpredictable horse. He most likely has some as yet unknown underlying pathology causing these aggressive episodes.

You are putting yourself and your horses at risk. Plus if he ends up injuring a third party you are scuppered if you get done for damages seeing as he has previous.
 
out of interest are there any in season mares near by? I wonder if he's slightly riggy and stallion instincts are kicking in when he gets a whiff of mare. I've known of more than one like this. One had a retained testicle and post on the table castration became a perfectly good pony. The other was a previously serving stallion who isn't a rig but still thinks he's a stallion if any mares around and it's all he thinks about. Any potential rivals are seen off . The pony i mentioned used to go so far as to attack other horses full on and had to be completely separated from both mares and geldings
 
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