What to do next with problematic horse... About at wits end :(

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bollybop

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Just after some opinions really. My horse has started playing up again recently, and to be honest dont really where to go next.

Horse has a history of ulcers, has required very regular physio visits, and has some dorsal processes close together. Has also got some historical nappy issues.

Had all required vet treatments, sent horse away for re schooling, then to an experienced rider to bring on for me. I now have horse back.

All has been going well up until a couple of weeks ago when the napping suddenly returned out of the blue.

Feed has been changed to just a balancer and some sugar beet with supplements in; one for gastric health, and Equifeasts cool calm and collected. Discussions about the formula are ongoing with manufacturer.

Went out for a lesson couple of weeks ago and it was awful, thought I was going to get chucked off. Instructor must have thought I was an idiot, and said it looked like my horse was in pain.

Physio has been out since, and found absolutely nothing wrong. Dentist is coming out in a couple of weeks. Have also got a trial with a treeless saddle booked.

Horse naps in situations she's not 100% comfortable with, and this time round, the napping has only happened with me. Other people are riding her as well ATM; however given that she has exhibited this napping behaviour with pro riders, it's not all my fault.

Not really sure where to go next with horse. I've already spent a fortune on her, with not a lot left to be going at.

I have made enquiries about either another local practitioner coming out for another once over, just to check that there's nothing going on. She's maxed out her insurance money, barring that on ulcers.

So what would you do next? I could try booking a thermal imaging person, see if that shows anything up. I have also emailed cotts equine to see if they think she's a likely candidate for the standing ligament ks surgery they do. I could also talk to my vets, see if we can do a Castro guard trial, see if that makes any difference. I have also contacted a local horse behaviourist, to see if they think they may be able to help me. I can obviuously also try and work her in situations she doesn't like, but I do value my own health. I Also would like to be able to go somewhere new (ie a show) with all the toys coming out of the pram.

She's had her ovaries scanned, and all fine inside. Blood function test on liver and kidneys fine.
 
Sorry OP but if there are no clinical or skelatal issues with the horse and others have ridden her, possibly you are just that bit anxious on her and she can feel it so acts against it, so would say maybe she is the wrong horse for you, it happens.

I am led to believe that sugarbeet can have some affects on different horses but as she had this issue befoe the speedibeet it would seem this is not the case. Just my opinion dont shoot me down in flames, but good luck
 
I used to have a mare who was completely unpredictable in her behaviour (although when we looked back we could see the pattern). We carried on trying to deal with her for 8 yrs. Eventually, just before we made the decision to pts, sis saw an article in one of the horse mags about allergic reactions to feed. We stopped all hard feed and the mare was just like a junkie going 'cold turkey'. After 3 days she was easy to handle again and, except when well-meaning passersby fed her on stuff she shouldn't have, she was absolutely fine. IIWY, I'd stop feeding her on anything except hay/lage and see if that helps.
 
How bad is this napping....what is the horse doing, how often with you, how do you get though it?

Next..... Well I wouldn't be doing anything else that requires money on the horse. You must pin point the triggers to the nappy behaviour, go over in your mind when it happens....in the school, out hacking...when, where......certain place in the school or doing a certain movement....
Evaluate your behaviour before, during and after the nap..... Are you part of her confidence issue? Does she look to you for leadership and find you don't offer what she needs???
 
amymay said:
The horse has a problem with its back.....
Click to expand...

What else did the crystal ball tell you ....

Op what are you feeding/doing for the ulcers and have you tried a bute trial ?
Does she do the same if others ride her ? Not saying your rubbish etc but does she pick up on nerves.
 
It sounds as if the horse has fairly recently returned from schooling, did you ride her regularly while she was away and why are you not going for lessons with that trainer, it sounds as if you went to someone new?
Keeping continuity in training would be helpful if it is a rider. training issue and not just pain, if she has a history of ulcers they are the first place to explore, she has moved a few times, that is stressful so they may have come back.
The spinal problem may be changing, as the muscles build up, which I expect they have with pro schooling, her back may become more compromised as the work increases.

I would not take her to unfamiliar places until you have explored further, keep the stress levels down for both of you, there is no reason to start something at this stage that you already feel you are going to lose, she will not build up trust if that is part of the problem by being put into new situations until you are both ready, then go somewhere with no pressure just to mooch around if you can, set out to succeed by making it as easy as possible rather than too challenging that causes set backs.
 
I am sorry you are in this situation .
Have you had the branches of the suspensories in the hind legs looked at ?
There are so any things it could be
Does the horse nap out hacking as well as in the school ?
 
Well, what a selection of possible causes. That'll take some time and money to work through. But, you said the horse has a history of ulcers and then you say you might ask your vet to do a GastroGuard trial. Have you not done a course of GG after your horse was diagnosed with ulcers? Was it scoped; how bad and where abouts were the ulcers? If your horse has an untreated on going ulcer, made worse by the stress of pain from orthopaedic troubles and stress of training in a different yard, I would imagine it could react in the way you describe. And certainly, unless the ulcers have been shown on scoping to be completely healed, do NOT try a Bute trial; that could really get the ulcers going.
 
Could be kissing spines OP which could explain the behaviour. I don't know how long ago you got the x rays done on the back, but it might be worth getting another set of x rays done on the back. Thermal imaging will also show up any hot spots. If the processes were close together this could be causing quite a lot of pain. If you do get x rays down it might be worth sending them off to Cotts equine as they do the inter spinous desmotomy where they cut the ligaments between the processes to widen up the spaces. I know people who have had this op done with very good results. Or send them to Svend Kold who does the more traditional process removal op. my horse had this done (not by Svend) with very good results also.
For more information look on the Facebook group. Horses with kissing spine.
 
Balancer will have soya. My mare would kill someone if she has soya in feed. And hopefully you're using unmolassed beet. So I would try feeding a diet without.

Terri
 
I would concentrate on the most obvious problems, i.e. ulcers and the dorsal processes.

How were the ulcers first diagnosed? What was done to treat them? Many horses need repeat treatments of GastroGuard and some require a small dose very long term.

How were the dorsal processes diagnosed? If you have x-rays you can e-mail them to Cotts for an opinion on whether the horse is suitable for surgery, however before taking this drastic option you need to be more certain the problem is in the back. You need to exclude other causes of pain like the ulcers and also see if treatment alleviates the back problem. So you could try steroid injections and if you see a difference then you know the problem comes from there. Alternatively you could do a scintigraphy which would give you a clearer picture of the extent of the problem.
 
Have you had X-rays of her back?
My very unpredictable horse always had back problems, which I have had treated regularly by recommended back people. It was only when I finally got X-rays we found the problem. Didn't pay for examinations etc just told them I wanted his back x rayed and would bring him in.
Cost me £140 which saved me a fortune
 
I would investigate the ulcers as others have said. I would also take her off the hard feed especially sugar beet. If your horse does have ulcers then look at a high fibre low sugar starch diet. Lots of feed companies pack feeds full of sugar and rubbish and that can really irritate ulcers. So something like fast fibre and linseed with lots of turnout and a lib hay day an night. I would also want to get an d ray of the back to rule out kissing spine. If all of that is ok then it sounds like a real insecurity. Id spend time walking out in hand and building relationship with your horse.
 
Close dorsal processes doesn't necessarily mean a problem. If they cause pain, then there is a problem. I was told my old boy had close processes 6 years ago - he was out of work at the time with another lameness, which was when it became apparent there was a back issue also. Vet's advice was to keep him working and lunging. With work, the pain went. We never had to have surgery or other treatment. His back is checked every 6 months (osteopath) who is happy with him.
 
Will try and answer everything here:

Horse has shown napping behaviour no matter what feed she's been on. Curent sugar beet is unmollssed. She needs some form of feed to put her suppliments in.

Napping has been shown with three previous riders, and myself. Not however napping with girls that exercise her for me... However chances are she won't be ridden in a situation she finds intimidating. When I have ridden her in the school without any distractions she goes like a dream.

She was scoped for ulcers, put on a course of gg, and then scoped clear. Not currently exhibiting previous non ridden signs of ulcers. Has also appeared un-stressed by yard moves.

Back has been xrayed twice, once for initial diagnosis, and once when injected for steroids. That's how come I know she has them! These have been emailed to cotts with an extensive description of her history.

Suspensories have n
 
Stupid phone... Not been scanned nor had a bone scan done.

She was taken to an equine hospital and they basically couldn't see anything wrong with her, although she wasnt ridden. She won't be having a bone scan either as there is no insurance money, and I haven't got £2k laying around to fund it myself.

Think that about answers everything mentioned!
 
Sounds like pain to be honest! Have you done a bute/danilon trial? 4 sachets a day (2 x morning and 2x night ) for minimum of a week, if there is obvious improvement then you need to decide whether you can find/afford the money to investigate further or you have no option but to rest/retire
 
So behavioural then. If it was me id take away all ridden work and get back on the ground with her. take her for walks let her graze, walk the routes you plan on hacking. sit in her field with her not expecting anything from her, take a book. take all pressure off her completely so that your time with her doesn't have a purpose to her. you could then do some ground work with her and eventually when you are out walking together, jump on her back for five mins then get off, then up to ten and so on. if it is that shes insecure and untrusting then she needs to see you as one of the herd and the only way that will happen is if you spend time just being with her. my mare was really spooky out and about and schooling so I spent about six months doing the above and continue to do it now and shes a different horse. if you are willing to sacrifice riding then its worth it.

two others things that I just thought of also is could it be hormonal since its not all the time. maybe a sup might help and the other thing is, bitless. some horses are so sensitive in the mouth, it might be worth seeing if shes any different without a bit.

really hope you find out whats happening
 
I agree it sounds behavioural. You've investigated a number of physical causes, and the behaviour is sporadic, yet the horse consistently does it with you. Sounds like he knows he'll get away with it. Sometimes, even quiet horses are just 'naughty'.

That's happened to me. I had the horse schooled for two weeks and then following on I went and had lessons with the professional rider for some time after they had done 'sorting him out' as such.
 
Sounds like pain to me too and I'm going to stand up for Amymay here as I think she just said what others have thought...just in her special style :-)

Seriously OP. When Molly landed her full weight on me on the tarmac earlier in the year it has had some serious long lasting effects. Initial MRI did show the extent of the bruising and soft tissue damage so was sent home to rest (short version). Rest I did for a bit but...I have been to the GP a few times and seen a specialist as I am still getting occasional very bad twinges in my lower back. They have looked at everything, done all the tests and scans and nothing there to be seen. Consultant explained that because of the way the vertebrae have become closer since the fall (I about 1cm shorter than I was), I can get trapped nerves and other problems that cause these excrutiating pains. They don't last long, just seconds usually and sometimes I will just get one, other times it will happen a few times in a row. Consultant explained that I would need to be in an MRI scanner and Thermal imager WHEN it happens for them to be able to actually see it, so just because there's no evidence does not mean there is no pain.

I would say that there is a possibility that your horse is exhibiting the same. Maybe he doesn't do it when the people who exercise him for you are riding because they just don't ask as much and so nothing is tweaked to cause the pain? Maybe the tweaks that cause the pain can be triggered by tension...my back is more likely to "go" when I am generally tense, even if it's in another part of my body.

In all honesty, if the horse was mine, I would be inclined to turn him away for the whole winter, just complete rest and let him rough out the winter. No going on the walker or being lunged or long reined, no riding, even gentle hacks. I would do complete rest and turn away. If he's the type to get bored and has to be stabled, I would take for walks in hand in place of hacking and I would turn out in the school and let him do what he wants in there, but ideally, just turn out and care for as a companion horse.

It's not going to cost you anything, may give you a chance to save up a bit in case he does need future treatments but the way I look at it is, if you keep going, you are costing yourself money and possibly never going to get anywhere. However, turn him away and the long term rest may just solve the issue for you....or at least, it will not cost you any more and he'll be well re-charged and rested mentally as well as physically before coming back into work.
 
So a sensitive horse that does not cope with pressure or what she views as pressure, light exercise with grooms causes no issue as they are not working her or expecting what you do, that is fair enough and pretty normal for a horse with history of discomfort, it may be genuine or remembered pain but the feeling of working properly or being in new situations increases her tension and creates the napping.
I would be wary about a bute trial without ruling out the ulcers as it will not do her any good if they are starting again, as you still have insurance left to scope then treat if required I would do that first, then do a bute trial if nothing shows.
The steroid injections in her back may have worked but now require repeating or as you have suggested an op, look in vets to see cptrayes reports on her horse who did not respond well after steroids but is looking great after the ligament op.
 
The grooms that are riding her are doing far more with her than me.

Not so easy to turn away over winter here. Due to the state the land gets in (at any yard) there is little turnout. However if she did go for the cotts op, it would tie in nicely with that.
 
Forgot to say I am also aware it could be hormonal... However (previously) the napping has not been periodical or cyclical. It's generally there.
 
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