What to do next with problematic horse... About at wits end :(

How can it be behavioural when the OP has said the horse has kissing spines, has had steroid injections for it and been referred to Cotts for an opinion on the surgery?!

When was the horse treated with injections? My horse only showed improvement for 1-2 months, at best you get 6 months out of the injections before the problem returns. They are not really a solution, more of a diagnostic aid to verify the source of the pain.
 
The dorsal processes were close on previous X-rays taken, they could well be further apart now she's had plenty of proper work any physio treatment.

Steroid injections didnt make a blind bit of difference. She napped before them, and after them. They were done February this year.
 
bollybop said:
The dorsal processes were close on previous X-rays taken, they could well be further apart now she's had plenty of proper work any physio treatment.

Steroid injections didnt make a blind bit of difference. She napped before them, and after them. They were done February this year.
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I am not a vet but I strongly doubt work and physio could cure KS.

The reality is that you have a horse with problematic behaviours AND strong evidence of physical discomfort. The only way out of this predicament is to inevstigate and rule our/treat every possible cause of pain and then see what happens to her behaviour. Unfortunately you may need to spend some serious money investigating the possible problems but your only other option is to keep riding her through what might be pain related behaviour.
 
Only going on what the vets have told me re the spine. Three vets have looked at it, and none of them have been overly bothered about them.

After the first set of X-rays were taken the vet said that given how much muscle tension she had, and the fact she wasnt in full work at the time, relive the muscle tension, and get her working properly and there could well be a change in them
 
bollybop said:
Only going on what the vets have told me re the spine. Three vets have looked at it, and none of them have been overly bothered about them.

After the first set of X-rays were taken the vet said that given how much muscle tension she had, and the fact she wasnt in full work at the time, relive the muscle tension, and get her working properly and there could well be a change in them
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Why did the vet recommend steroid injections if they were not bothered by it? What did Cotts tell you regarding the surgery?

So you have re-x-rayed and the problem is gone?
 
I asked for the steroid injections whilst I was there.

Cotts have said she is a candidate for the surgery.

I haven't had the spine xrayed recently, but will be done next week
 
bollybop said:
I asked for the steroid injections whilst I was there.

Cotts have said she is a candidate for the surgery.

I haven't had the spine xrayed recently, but will be done next week
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They wouldn't have administered a steroid injection just at the request of an owner - there are too many factors to take in to consideration.

She is a candidate for surgery - ergo there is a problem.

Seems quite simple to me.
 
bollybop said:
The dorsal processes were close on previous X-rays taken, they could well be further apart now she's had plenty of proper work any physio treatment.

Steroid injections didnt make a blind bit of difference. She napped before them, and after them. They were done February this year.
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As someone who is riding this week after ligament resection six weeks ago. I would be very wary of spending over 1500 pounds on a horse which did not respond to spine injections. Even though they lasted only three weeks, the difference the injections made to mine was enormous.


Are you sure your mare does not also have PSD and or SI issues, which are very often present with KS?? Cotts estimate 60% have them as well as KS.
 
What the posters above said.

A vet wouldn't give steroid injections just because you asked for them, they we re investigating KS. The fact that she did not respond to them suggests that it may not be KS but it is not definitive. You may end up with a scintigraphy to really find out what is going on. Best of luck.
 
I asked for the steroids as I knew she had some processes that are close. She cannot have bone scan as I simply cannot afford it.
 
This is beginning to make no sense to me. Is there someone that just doesn't want to accept that the horse has a physical pain issue here? Seems a bit odd. I have never known a vet give steroids to a horse on the owners request where they have already said it is ok, especially a horse that is a candidate for surgery. Too many contradictions, so something just isn't ringing true.

Sorry OP, but I get the feeling there's a bit more to this.
 
Try reading the original post. The horse went into hospital for further tests. The vet did not see anything wrong with her. We knew she had some processes close together so they were re xrayed and then injected??? Which bit of this is not clear?

As to not accepting the horse is in pain? She might be she might not be, I don't know. Yes she's a candidate for the surgery as she has processes that are close together, and unexplained napping behaviour.

The napping could also merely be behavioural as she has learnt she can nap.
 
bollybop - I have not read all the replys however I had a mare that was very jekell and hyde in her attitude. Everyone told me to get rid of her but I felt like I was giving up. Anyway after a series of injuries, nothing too much splint etc. I took her for a hack with a friend and she just collapsed on the road, this was not due to a trip she just dropped, and opend all her knees up.

She had always been a perfect patient but over a week or so her behaviour got worse and worse to the point that she would not let me in the stable to clean and dress wounds (very unlike her) she trashed her stable and generally was not herself. I came to the heartbraking desicion that she would have to be PTS as there was something fundamentally wrong.

I had a PM done and my fears were confirmed - she had, had a mini stroke was the way it was explained to me when she fell, only half her heart was working and they felt it had been like this for a while and also all her organs were shuting down slowly.

She was only 8 years old, and although this may not be the case with yours I would urge to get her heart checked, as her behaviour might be her way of saying she is in pain.
 
bollybop said:
Try reading the original post. The horse went into hospital for further tests. The vet did not see anything wrong with her. We knew she had some processes close together so they were re xrayed and then injected??? Which bit of this is not clear?

As to not accepting the horse is in pain? She might be she might not be, I don't know. Yes she's a candidate for the surgery as she has processes that are close together, and unexplained napping behaviour.

The napping could also merely be behavioural as she has learnt she can nap.
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It's not fair to get narky at people who are only trying to help.

Like you and everyone else on here, I don't know what is wrong with your horse. It could be clinical, could be behavioural. Could be a combo.

If it is clinical, your vet is the one you need to ask. If you cannot afford some of the tests they suggest, that's just the way it is.

I suggest you complete any testing/referral work that you can afford. When you have done all the testing they have suggested/ you want to/ you can afford, turn the horse away for 6 months. Move him if necessary to somewhere where the land makes that possible.

Whilst your horse is off work, do some groundwork with him. If the problem is behavioural, any increase in the respect that the horse has for you, must help. Then, if all seems well, try to bring him back into work, with vet advice, v v slowly.

No, it may not work, but you can but try. Sometimes horses just have to be retired.

Good luck.
 
re the KS, having had a horse treated by the RVC and having spoken to Richard at Cotts who's considered a leading expert, the both said you shouldn't gon on xrays alone for KS and you need a bone scan to detect if it's active or not. So without that I don't think you have the full picture.

Echo what CPTrayes says, often other assoc conditions that cause or contribute to KS, or which the KS triggers, which might well explain some of this. I do think you need to rule out pain though, otherwise you could spend a lot of time and effort and still not sort it.
 
bollybop said:
Try reading the original post. The horse went into hospital for further tests. The vet did not see anything wrong with her. We knew she had some processes close together so they were re xrayed and then injected??? Which bit of this is not clear?

As to not accepting the horse is in pain? She might be she might not be, I don't know. Yes she's a candidate for the surgery as she has processes that are close together, and unexplained napping behaviour.

The napping could also merely be behavioural as she has learnt she can nap.
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She is not a candidate for surgery if she did not respond to steroid injections into the dorsal process spaces. Her lack of response to removing pain that way shows that removing pain with a ligament resection, which is reckoned to work mainly because it denerves the DSPs, is not going to work either.

My understanding is that Cotts will not operate on a horse which does not respond to steroids. Did you tell them that when they said from your xrays that she was a candidate for surgery?

Personally, having just come inside from riding my horse that had them done six weeks ago, I think you would be unwise to go for a ligament resection even if you can find a vet who will do it.

I think you are likely to end up two grand poorer with a horse which still naps.
 
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A Musing said:
re the KS, having had a horse treated by the RVC and having spoken to Richard at Cotts who's considered a leading expert, the both said you shouldn't gon on xrays alone for KS and you need a bone scan to detect if it's active or not. So without that I don't think you have the full picture.
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No bone scan is needed if you get a clear reaction to the injections. Luckily I did.

Certainly the case for a ligament resection in the OPs horse is far from clear.
 
Cptrayes is right. Have spoken to vet. She needs to see clear improvement on "nerve block" or steroids on her spine for any pain to be eminating from her back.

When she originally went in to vets hospital I was fully expecting them to suggest a bone scan. The vet said she didn't need one.
 
I will say that I feel in most of such cases with horses pain is at the root of the behaviour.
You just have not found the cause yet .
I PTS a horse n a similar she showed bizarre and very dangerous behaviour it was inconsistent but very dangerous we spent around £10,000 on trying to find out what it was in the end after a very nasty day I threw in the towel she was miserable I was miserable I had her put to sleep I was heart broken and still am TBH .
While I don't think you are there with your horse I understand how difficult it is .
If flexions are fine and no reaction to using the hoof testers across the heels it's difficult to know where to go without spending a fortune
Thermal imaging will do no harm and won't break the bank it's worth a go.
I think if I where you I would consider removing the shoes and find a large field with other horses and let the horse run out for six months and then reassess.
The back may well be a red herring the fact that medicating the back does modify the behaviour defiantly makes this possible .
I would also gastro scope however if the horse has ulcer they may well be a secondary problem triggered by pain else where .
Not easy you have my sympathy.
 
Horse is going into vets next week to get nerve block in her back (well I'm going to ring them tomorrow to book that part of it) scope for ulcers, and maybe have a poke about with flexion and ultrasound on her legs.

If this draws a blank I will get the thermal imaging people out and see if that points me in any directions. Have contacted a local behaviourist too, will get her out if vets draw a blank.

The napping behaviour may well have started from pain... And developed into a bad habit,

Ets: I have tried her with time off, and it didnt make the blindest bit of difference. In fact she came back into work worse than she was when she was left off. Given it wasnt six months, but currently, where she is at with her schooling (when she's behaving ridden with others) is not at a stage where I would like to leave off with her
 
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Bollypop you could actually be talking about my mare!!

I had X-rays done on her back and her vertebrae were also close but not touching. Vet suggested steroids which didn't make a difference, neither did nerve blocking it. Vet suggested all kinds of treatment for kissing spines but I wasn't convinced that this is what she had so i called the vets bluff and said I wanted the op. Vet then back tracked and said maybe we should bone scan to see exactly where the pain was coming from. Turned out her back was fine and it was actually her sacroiliac joint!!!

The reason why her vertebrae were close was because of the way she was holding herself to compensate. Took her to a physio at new market and she said that once we got to the cause of the sacroiliac problems she would relax over her back and the vertebra would open up.

My vets have not been helpful at all so I decided to give my mare a year out while i looked into it. Had even decided at one point to retire her as I was fed up with the constant disappointment and heartbreak of her not responding to treatment.

I now have a lovely physio who has given me a plan to work towards, starting with long reining and lunging getting her to work properly over her back to build muscle to strengthen the sacroiliac. It's gonna be a very long process as i now think my mare has it ingrained in her brain the work means pain.

I have also wondered if she may have ulcers too as she is a very sensitive soul who gets stressed out easily but like you I have no more money to throw at her as insurance had run out.
 
Also my mare has come back to work even worse and I think part of this is remembering the pain but also because now she is so weak behind
 
Have you tried a horse whisperer? I know it may sound bonkers but my mare and I were hit by a car and for many years later she was wild, unpredictable and very difficult although sometimes she was lovely. I kept a detailed diary of her behaviour/ weather etc and we eventually put her on regumate for one summer. I had used a horse whisperer before and she was useless but I found another one and she came out to see the horse and stood with her hands above her in a sort of trance. The horse was always perfectly behaved in her stable with blacksmith/ vet etc so after about 20 minutes when she went completely crazy and attacked the stable walls, I knew something was happening. Weeks/ months went by and I kept on with her diary and the whisperer kept talking to her on a weekly basis - I could tell from her behaviour when she was spoken to and we worked through it. If you can find a good whisperer, your mare may be able to tell you whats wrong - mine did and we seem to have turned a corner. If you want my whisperers name, let me know - she has also written a short book about it and we have it on the kindle. Good luck
 
bollybop said:
Try reading the original post. The horse went into hospital for further tests. The vet did not see anything wrong with her. We knew she had some processes close together so they were re xrayed and then injected??? Which bit of this is not clear?

As to not accepting the horse is in pain? She might be she might not be, I don't know. Yes she's a candidate for the surgery as she has processes that are close together, and unexplained napping behaviour.

The napping could also merely be behavioural as she has learnt she can nap.
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I did read the first post and I find that attitude unnecessary. I haven't pointed the finger or singled anyone out, I have simply said what I think. There is overwhelming belief in this thread that the horse is in pain, but there doesn't seem to be much desire to stop working her. I personally don't understand that. I totally understand how frustrating it must be as I've been there myself.

Yes, it could be behavioural, horses do learn things and KS especially they react against remembered pain rather than actual pain sometimes and horses can do things just because they become habit.

That said, If my horse was not right and exhibiting behaviour like this and there were question marks surrounding processes, I would not continue to work the horse. I would rule out pain first, then look at behaviour. I just don't personally like the idea of working horses that may be in pain. It's too much of a grey area for me and I don't see what possible benefit can come of working a horse that is in pain.

That isn't judgement, it's and opinion expressed as that is what the thread asks for. I know only too well how damned expensive it gets and how much you want to tear your hair and eyeballs out in frustration...that's why I mentioned turning away. It takes the pressure off and might just end up helping without spending any money.
 
The only indication that I have that there is anything wrong is that she naps, only when I am currently riding her, and only in certain circumstances.

It has taken six months of really good riding/schooling work, coupled with physio, to have eradicated previous muscle tension. Currently I would be very unwilling to give her six months off, as she would probably revert back to how she was.
 
bollybop said:
The only indication that I have that there is anything wrong is that she naps, only when I am currently riding her, and only in certain circumstances.

It has taken six months of really good riding/schooling work, coupled with physio, to have eradicated previous muscle tension. Currently I would be very unwilling to give her six months off, as she would probably revert back to how she was.
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The problem is you then?
 
It is me at the minute... However I have seen the horse doing exactly the same behaviour with far batter riders than myself...
 
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