What would you do with this horse?

It’s always worth having videos to look back on / compare. @Michen remember vets have to cover their backs these days and as previously said they’ll not be wanting to take risks, but in your shoes l’d be cracking on in an appropriate way. Good luck 😀
 
I dunno guys. I just walked him on this loop and even on this downhill he gets kind of stressy. Nippy, rushes or slows right down. Just doesn’t seem right and to me it seems like pain but I also take the vets point that if he finds it hard cos neuro then that could explain the behavior too. And it’s hard to say it could be pain when he seems very sound. I can kind of “make” him walk sensibly and politely with lots of half halts but I’m not sure that’s the point. And “stabby” as she said going up.

I don’t think this hill should be much of an ask.

I’m a bit tempted to do a pain relief trial with the meds my Colorado vet sent me with. Not as effective as bute and would need to be limited on the time he has it but it could be interesting to see if two days of it or so makes any difference.

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Stifles can be sore going downhill, if hes still growing and not working the ligaments could be slack

Did she examine his eyes, distorted vision can affect where he puts his feet , especially when on a non level surface

Theres no indepth mention if his feet, ie heel depth in relation to the toe, my slight fumbler one had very short toes and deep heels sometimes he broke over too quickly and sort of knuckled, corrected angles lower heels and slightly longer toes stopped that, i thought he was a bit neuro at one point, but fine now

The rescue has taken years to reach his maturity and outgrow several small things that just had to be figured out
 
Michen said:
I dunno guys. I just walked him on this loop and even on this downhill he gets kind of stressy. Nippy, rushes or slows right down. Just doesn’t seem right and to me it seems like pain but I also take the vets point that if he finds it hard cos neuro then that could explain the behavior too. And it’s hard to say it could be pain when he seems very sound. I can kind of “make” him walk sensibly and politely with lots of half halts but I’m not sure that’s the point. And “stabby” as she said going up.

I don’t think this hill should be much of an ask.

I’m a bit tempted to do a pain relief trial with the meds my Colorado vet sent me with. Not as effective as bute and would need to be limited on the time he has it but it could be interesting to see if two days of it or so makes any difference.

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Exactly the behaviour the hooligan showed as a youngster. Stifles for us and apparently very common in younger horses.

Have you got any Tellington Touch practitioners in your area? That methodology came about through helping EPM horses but can be applied to any horse
 
Are you working on his proprioception in your groundwork? I have a horse that cannot walk in a straight line and used to frequently knock into herself. I don't think there's anything neuro going on (although she is unlevel behind) she's just very uncoordinated. My field is steep and for a while she couldn't trot downhill without either standing on herself or tripping, but if ridden and held together she could. I have spent quite some time working on her body awareness and movement patterns and she now gallops down the hill and no longer regularly knocks herself.

It makes for a much more pleasant ride, especially as there are some pretty steep hills around here. Maybe not as steep as yours, but topped with slippery tarmac and rough stones.
 
His bodyworker does always say he has tight hamstrings. He's in a fair bit of work, 6 days a week albiet mostly groundwork. A mixture of poles, cavelleti, long reining, he's recently been starting to do much more canter work and that's been really coming along (he was bucking into canter and now doesn't, his leads and pretty spot on- etc etc).

He's a little chubby but not terrible.

I think I'm fairly set on a plan, I think I should move him to the place with a hilly pasture, herd, out 24/7 and they can also do groundwork with him 3 days a week and I'll do the other 3 just to keep his waistline in check at least. It's certainly not fancy, no indoor floodlit arena and round pen but I think it'll give him a much more natural lifestyle and a good shot and finding his own feet and improving or not- and giving me an answer either way.
 
Beausmate said:
Are you working on his proprioception in your groundwork? I have a horse that cannot walk in a straight line and used to frequently knock into herself. I don't think there's anything neuro going on (although she is unlevel behind) she's just very uncoordinated. My field is steep and for a while she couldn't trot downhill without either standing on herself or tripping, but if ridden and held together she could. I have spent quite some time working on her body awareness and movement patterns and she now gallops down the hill and no longer regularly knocks herself.

It makes for a much more pleasant ride, especially as there are some pretty steep hills around here. Maybe not as steep as yours, but topped with slippery tarmac and rough stones.
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Yes- he does plenty of backing up, poles, lateral work, the lot. With a very good classical dressage trainer half the week and me the other half. He's very good at it.

Trainer was shocked he was branded as neurological given his abilities on the above.

But he does also do funky things sometimes too, could be a baby thing, could not be.
 
Michen said:
Here’s the vet report I just got. I did think she had said that she was happy with his cross stepping and she felt it was acceptable but this reads a little different I guess.

Just toured the other barn. Very rustic, great pasture, very direct and straightforward French manager who would also be happy to do some ground work with him. It would be a third of the cost of my current board, certainly no frills. I’m thinking it could be a good half way house between a retirement home but somewhere still where I could do some things with him and see how he goes.


Exam

On examination, Atlas was bright and willing, with behavior consistent with a young, inexperienced horse. At the walk and during flat evaluation, there was mild right-sided stiffness on circles to the right, but no consistent lameness identified.

Neurologic exam revealed appropriate backing and tail pull responses after initial learning behavior. Tight circle work showed mild inconsistency with crossing behind, with occasional delayed or stilted steps that could represent a mild deficit versus training-related difficulty. When evaluated over poles, the horse demonstrated appropriate limb placement and awareness, with only occasional contact of rails. On hill work, abnormalities were more apparent and repeatable, including a short, “stabby” stride when moving uphill and a less coordinated, “floaty” gait with inconsistent foot placement when moving downhill. No clear evidence of foot soreness or primary lameness was identified.

Summary

Mild and somewhat inconsistent neurologic deficits are present, most notably exacerbated during incline and decline work. Examination on flat ground is largely within normal limits for a young horse, but the repeatable abnormalities on hills raise concern for residual neurologic dysfunction. The most likely etiology is residual deficits from prior Equine Protozoal M. Other differentials include cervical vertebral stenotic myelopathy, hindlimb mechanical issues such as stifle or hock dysfunction, or less likely foot pain. Given the timeline of approximately one year since treatment, prognosis for complete neurologic recovery is guarded.

Plan

Recommend continued conservative management with a focus on conditioning and strengthening, particularly with

controlled hill work on mild inclines, followed by reassessment for improvement or persistence of deficits. Additional diagnostics may be pursued depending on intended use and owner goals, including repeat EPM titers with or without CSF analysis, serum vitamin E levels, and cervical radiographs. Safety considerations for riding, especially on steep or uneven terrain, were discussed. A recheck examination is recommended in 2–3 months if the horse remains in work. Referral for a second opinion and advanced neurologic evaluation at UC Davis is available if desired. Long-term
management decisions, including suitability for intended use or alternative placement, should be considered based on progression and safety.
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You might be shocked at the difference large hilly turnout does for him over the next few months. You can do all the in hand hill work you want but it just really can’t compete with hilly turnout that’s got some real acreage to it. Also my guy lived out 24/7 during the summer in a grazing muzzle and was no worse for wear. It made him walk even more so he stayed in even better condition lol I did put sheepskin cover on it. You’re also still really early out from treatment of epm. That can take a while to really get them where they can be confident in their steps again. Vet reports also usually sound worse than the convos with the vet. They are more clinical and try to avoid biases
 
I think what you’re suggesting sounds like a really sensible next step to see how he copes in a larger, more varied turnout area with friends whilst still being close enough to do some groundwork to help his waistline and keep his muscle tone and how he copes with all that might answer some questions about how he’s going to manage in the long term.
 
The vet report seems pretty standard to me. It is guarded in that they don't want to be definite about anything, but it does say that in the arena, he is within normal parameters and out on the hill he is funky and that what funkiness is there is mild and inconsistent. I also read it as crack on sensibly and see what happens.

I also see it as a positive that it is as a result of an illness and she is talking about what chances of recovery are as opposed to deterioration.
 
I think all written vet reports are totally guarded for their insurance purposes these days and I take some of them with a large grain of salt. I would much rather have a knock-down, drag-out conversation with a vet I totally trust and then make my decision from there so maybe a video to your UK vet might be helpful to you.

I am glad you have decided to move him - apart from the fact that it seems a much more natural environment for a young horse (muzzle notwithstanding!!) you just don't know until you try and you really have nothing to lose. Look forward to hearing reports of his progress.
 
The new place sounds ideal for strengthening him up and if he can't cope or gets worse you'll have your answer.

I don't think the vet report reads too badly (maybe I've seen too many!). But I also think if your gut is telling you not to ride him then don't discount that. It could well be young horse strength, stifle issues - very common - but taking time out to see if he improves will stop you having that little voice asking "what if". Especially if you're paying someone else to ride him (extra responsibility etc)
 
My horses live in a field with quite a steep hill. As I've mentioned on other threads one of my current horses is a wobbler. He doesn't seem to have problems on a slope which looks much steeper and has a more uneven surface than the one pictured, unless the camera angle is misleading. Horses which have struggled with the slope have turned out to have soft tissue problems like suspensory or tendon injuries.

Mine has neurological problems for very different reasons than Atlas, a physical defect in the neck not a parasitic infection. Superficially he looks and moves normally, although fails the hoof placement test and has limited sensation in his hindquarters / tail. I can work him from the ground and he lunges, backs up, does poles, raised poles, tight turns etc. He was ridden for 6 months with no obvious problems until one day he bolted. He was very distressed and I was worried that he would go through the fence, 2 rails cracked when he hit it. The first vet who saw him couldn't find a problem and said to continue riding him. I had another hard fall. A senior vet spotted the problem almost immediately and it was confirmed by xrays. That was about 3 years ago and I haven't got back on.

Moving to a location with hilly grazing with give you more information, either he may adapt and improve or not. If he's struggling in hand on a slope then there's something going on and it's hard for anyone to know what the effect of a rider would be. I personally wouldn't hack him or allow anyone else to at this stage, but it comes down what level of risk you accept. If he shows improvement start with riding in an enclosed area and see how he gets on. Tripping and falling is obviously potentially dangerous for horse and rider but I was very shaken by the bolting incident which could have been a lot worse, I wouldn't have expected it even if he'd been diagnosed already.

Mine has improved somewhat with time, he doesn't trip and I'm confident he wont fall. I'm turning over in my head whether to get a ct myelogram and an expert opinion on whether he could be ridden again. I've not ruled it out and will certainly tread very carefully.

I'm going to take a more careful look at mine going up and down the slope as I wasn't aware that this could be an indicator of neurological issues, in case he's doing something odd that I've missed.
 
I wonder if it might be worthwhile to do a consultation with Jec Ballou for groundwork/exercise plan? I've only read her stuff, not taken a course or done a consultation, but she seems to be really good at developing exercise programs that target specific issues. I would imagine that she has experience developing something for horses with similar issues to Atlas.
 
Really appreciate the suggestions and all things I’ll definitely look into to.

I don't think I can hack him to be honest. I am not even really considering riding him right now. He needs a new saddle and I don't want to shell out that kind of expense (it's a total minefield here- I'd be lucky to do it for under $4k) before I have a good idea of how things are progressing.

I also think I need to respect my partners thoughts on this. His immediate reaction was please- just go get yourself something that you will enjoy riding and that you know is safe and don't think about the finances in this, think about being as safe as possible. Of course he will/would respect my decision to ride Atlas but also, he has a valid point. I could technically afford a second horse if I wanted but actually I just don't even want to. I haven't had a ridden horse for 3 years now (of my own) and I have no desire to go out competing, or the time, given it's a 1 hr 30 min round trip just to get to a decent barn that has things I consider essential for a horse.

I know you probably all think that I'm being dramatic with not wanting to ride but truly, I see every misplaced hoof. Every trip. Hills are stressful and hills are part of the course here in Northern California, it's not so simple to just avoid them. There's no such thing as bridleways and hacking really, there's parks to trailer too and then there's the on site hacking that barns have. Even the new barn has a long gradient hill to get anywhere from to hack around the property- he might be fine or he might not. And I'm not interested in just riding around an arena.

I love Atlas and I will always look after him but my heart is just not in this game anymore.
 
I wouldnt ride him at the moment, listen to you gut

On the ground leading out or working in hand you will be able to monitor his every move, in safety
 
Thanks. Indeed. Honestly, I think I feel a little.. free. I'm also excited to get Atlas back in a herd situation on proper acerage.

I am annoyed at myself for not waiting longer to buy a very expensive new trailer (my old one is steel and heavy, I wanted to swap to a lightweight trailer that would be towable with an SUV instead of my truck that sits unused). Such a damn waste of more money but that is what it is, I guess I'll hold onto it for a bit. At least I hadn't yet splurged on the saddle!
 
Michen said:
Really appreciate the suggestions and all things I’ll definitely look into to.

I don't think I can hack him to be honest. I am not even really considering riding him right now. He needs a new saddle and I don't want to shell out that kind of expense (it's a total minefield here- I'd be lucky to do it for under $4k) before I have a good idea of how things are progressing.

I also think I need to respect my partners thoughts on this. His immediate reaction was please- just go get yourself something that you will enjoy riding and that you know is safe and don't think about the finances in this, think about being as safe as possible. Of course he will/would respect my decision to ride Atlas but also, he has a valid point. I could technically afford a second horse if I wanted but actually I just don't even want to. I haven't had a ridden horse for 3 years now (of my own) and I have no desire to go out competing, or the time, given it's a 1 hr 30 min round trip just to get to a decent barn that has things I consider essential for a horse.

I know you probably all think that I'm being dramatic with not wanting to ride but truly, I see every misplaced hoof. Every trip. Hills are stressful and hills are part of the course here in Northern California, it's not so simple to just avoid them. There's no such thing as bridleways and hacking really, there's parks to trailer too and then there's the on site hacking that barns have. Even the new barn has a long gradient hill to get anywhere from to hack around the property- he might be fine or he might not. And I'm not interested in just riding around an arena.

I love Atlas and I will always look after him but my heart is just not in this game anymore.
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Not dramatic no - you are in a different phase of life than you were when you moved out to the US.

I went quite a while in my 30s without my own. I had more horses offered to me than I had time to actually ride (I popped on a friend's horse at her livery yard one weekend and was inundated with offers within a few days - people were competing to offer me riding!!). I also did loads and loads of overseas horse trips. Work and personal life did not equal an easy horse owning situation and the ad hoc suited me fine.

I had no real plans to get back into horse ownership and yet here I am with my own farm and 3 of them.

We change, life changes and there are different priorities. Your OH would probably have had palpitations if he'd known you during your hunting and eventing days :p
 
Try ridng on an ansur saddle and see what you think, i find them close contact and horses can go very freely in them,they are quite open for the rider, you dont feel fixed or confined

They are expensive new but can be very reasonable second hand, they are almost treeless and adjustable
 
I’ve just read half this thread.

Please don’t get on him. I am going through the exact same thing with my 7yo (suspected neuro) Sound as a pound. But doesn’t truly know where her legs are. It is so dangerous. I know the floating legs on a hill and the occasional tripping. Don’t trust a horse with neuro. They don’t know what they are doing.

Nobody understands till you ride a horse that has it. I have been you and tried to “fitten her up” it doesn’t work. She still is a huge liability. One fractured hip and 2 broken ribs later I learnt the very hard way.
 
Michen said:
Really appreciate the suggestions and all things I’ll definitely look into to.

I don't think I can hack him to be honest. I am not even really considering riding him right now. He needs a new saddle and I don't want to shell out that kind of expense (it's a total minefield here- I'd be lucky to do it for under $4k) before I have a good idea of how things are progressing.

I also think I need to respect my partners thoughts on this. His immediate reaction was please- just go get yourself something that you will enjoy riding and that you know is safe and don't think about the finances in this, think about being as safe as possible. Of course he will/would respect my decision to ride Atlas but also, he has a valid point. I could technically afford a second horse if I wanted but actually I just don't even want to. I haven't had a ridden horse for 3 years now (of my own) and I have no desire to go out competing, or the time, given it's a 1 hr 30 min round trip just to get to a decent barn that has things I consider essential for a horse.

I know you probably all think that I'm being dramatic with not wanting to ride but truly, I see every misplaced hoof. Every trip. Hills are stressful and hills are part of the course here in Northern California, it's not so simple to just avoid them. There's no such thing as bridleways and hacking really, there's parks to trailer too and then there's the on site hacking that barns have. Even the new barn has a long gradient hill to get anywhere from to hack around the property- he might be fine or he might not. And I'm not interested in just riding around an arena.

I love Atlas and I will always look after him but my heart is just not in this game anymore.
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That's a good thing though, as you've made your decision.

I went without horses for almost 5 years, when I was setting up home with Mr Red. I had an injury that stopped me and life priorities changed.

A few years down the line I got back into it, bought one, Mr Red backed me and we bought our property and I was then, at a different stage of life, able to commit more than before even.

But then, I wouldn't be surprised if a horse finds you and you do have another.

having horses and riding isn't compulsory LOL.
tristars said:
Try ridng on an ansur saddle and see what you think, i find them close contact and horses can go very freely in them,they are quite open for the rider, you dont feel fixed or confined

They are expensive new but can be very reasonable second hand, they are almost treeless and adjustable
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I took an Ansur saddle to the US when I went there teaching. I was co-training with a working cowboy on English and Western, comparing the differences and similarities. I had been trained to fit them, so took one and all the associated pads in a suitcase! They fitted any horse with the adjustments and everyone could have a try with an English style saddle.

Just enjoy him in any way that gives you pleasure. None of us has seen him so can't judge how he looks and feels. But if you don't enjoy riding him, then there is no point in doing so!
 
Red-1 said:
That's a good thing though, as you've made your decision.

I went without horses for almost 5 years, when I was setting up home with Mr Red. I had an injury that stopped me and life priorities changed.

A few years down the line I got back into it, bought one, Mr Red backed me and we bought our property and I was then, at a different stage of life, able to commit more than before even.

But then, I wouldn't be surprised if a horse finds you and you do have another.

having horses and riding isn't compulsory LOL.

I took an Ansur saddle to the US when I went there teaching. I was co-training with a working cowboy on English and Western, comparing the differences and similarities. I had been trained to fit them, so took one and all the associated pads in a suitcase! They fitted any horse with the adjustments and everyone could have a try with an English style saddle.

Just enjoy him in any way that gives you pleasure. None of us has seen him so can't judge how he looks and feels. But if you don't enjoy riding him, then there is no point in doing so!
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Thank you. I agree. Ultimately I’ve been on off nursing sick horses for 3 years and I think I need to just prioritize other things right now!

Of course I’m still keeping an eye on things for sale though 😂
 
Sometimes just giving up is the best thing to do. I bought a mare that had had a tendon issue and it was just so stressful watching every missed step, having palpatations when they charged round the field etc. I sold her in the end and it was such a relief!
 
Yeah, I mean I won’t be fully giving up cos I’ll still have Atlas. His board and supplements will still set me back $750 a month or so! So really things won’t actually change that much other than giving up the idea of having a ridden horse.

I’m going to keep my new trailer for six months or so before I lose the inevitable several thousand dollars that I’ll lose on it, just incase he does make some miracle hill related recovery but I won’t hold my breath for sure.
 
Having read all of this thread i think you are doing the right thing for both yourself and Atlas. You need a break from worrying about him and your personal circumstances have changed which is exciting . Maybe just let him be a horse for a while and have fun with your OH and dogs . You’ve had a bad few years and really need a break from broken horses ( if he really is) you may find he improves dramatically if he has to cope with the terrain on his own and if you don’t want to ride him maybe someone else would… good luck with whatever you decide
 
MatHalTed said:
Has he had his neck X-Rayed? ECVM can cause clinical signs that are very similar to neurological issues
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Hi! No he hasn’t. I totally could but it doesn’t really change the outcome. I’m not interested in going down the route of trying to medicate a 4/5 year old with issues like that so early on.

We are reasonably confident (long story) it is/was EPM but of course without the tap you can never be sure. It’s easy to go chasing diagnostics but when it doesn’t really change the future or treatment, I prefer to just deal with what’s in front of me these days.
 
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