What would you do?

[PercyMum]

Thank you all for your advice. I have this morning spoken to the vet, physio and my trainer. All agree that turning away would not really help him as we are not exactly pushing him at the moment. I have contacted Jason Webb and hope to hear back from him with a way forward. I am also contacting a lady who deals with behavioral issues who might be able to help. Hopefully we will get somewhere this time!

Thanks all once again - I'll keep you updated.

 

[ischa]

Well fingers x for you and your horse and defently keep us updated

 

[Chavhorse]

Fingers crossed for you Percy's Mum that you can get this worked out x

 

[ladyt25]

OP - I think, when it comes to situations like this where you feel you are just getting nowhere and have ruled out any physical pain issues then trying various different treatment avenues is all you're left with to be honest. I know if I was in the same situation then I would certainly pull out all the stops whether that meant an animal communicator or getting someone from outside to come in and ride and assess him.

What were your intentions for him when you first bought him? Did he jump ok to start with or were there always issues and then you found he had kissing spines?

Certainly if a kissing spine op has been successful then the horse should be able to return to work without pain. My sieter's friend events a 9yo horse at Novice level, he had a KS op about 2 years ago I believe and then was turned aware for a fair time afterwards. He certainly seems very happy competing still.

I would firstly look at working on the hacking, see if that can be resolved as I find it odd he can lead out and yet once you're on he is stressed. That would suggest either he's picking up on rider nerves, he gets nervous overall about being ridden or he is still in some pain/discomfort somewhere.

I hope you do get to the bottom of it as I imagine it must be a fantastic feeling to find out a horse's problems and resolve them!

 

[Fairytale]

I havent read the last page or two of this, but my initial thoughts are that if the poor chap has had to have kissing spine surgery then he was obviously in a huge amount of pain previously and maybe for a long time too, and is possibly remembering his pain and is reacting accordingly even though it might not actually hurt now. And if he is a bit of a stress head his imagination could be making it a lot worse.

If he were mine; as it sounds like 'being ridden' issues, I would go down the thermal imaging route, turn him away for as long as necessary (ignoring the fact that he might not like being out, he would most likely grow to like it - he is a horse after all ), then bring him back into work in maybe 12 months, and start at the beginning with rebacking and treating him like a youngster.

Not sure where you are located but there is a place in Hampshire that offers retirement/turn away livery.

Hope this makes sense.

Fairy

 

[Naryafluffy]

There's a guy called Michael Peace that's been metioned a couple of times on the BD forums, there was 1 girl who had a really dangerous horse and pretty much had her in tears every day, someone on the forum recommended this guy, he's been out once I believe and the mare has been going great, not quite sure what he does (sure google would help), he also helped the person that had recommended him (don't think she could even tack her horse up it had got that bad).
Just a thought in case the other person doesn't work out.

Just googled his prices are £240 + mileage from OX5 2TF @ £1 per mile, his website does say that it's normally only 1 visit that is required (the 2 people on BD only required 1 visit), he does the 'Think Equus' stuff.

 

[Chavhorse]

If you are going down the "Celeb" Trainer route then look at Richard Maxwell or "Max" as he is known.

I have never heard a bad word about him.

 

[lochpearl]

If you are going down the "Celeb" Trainer route then look at Richard Maxwell or "Max" as he is known.

I have never heard a bad word about him.

I have and he is very local to me! Michael Peace is the only one I would allow on my horses.

 

[Broodle]

To answer the question in the title... I would sell/gift this horse to someone experienced looking for a project and move on with my life!

Sounds like this horse has done very little work for one reason or another for 3.5-4 years, so have no idea why some think a holiday might be helpful

It's meant to be fun, so if it's not then don't feel bad about moving him on and moving on yourself! That said, if you cannot bear to part with him then you have had some helpful advice about professionals who might be able to help you.

 

[Pally]

Just wanted to say good luck.
If you are interested in trying a horse communicator I shall PM you a link, I had James French out to see my pony and it did seem to help.

 

[JingleTingle]

Forgot to say if he will lead happily off another horse but will not hack with others then it seems the rider is the problem, so lots of avenues to investigate there.

Have only whizzed through the answers but this is my take on the problem too - not to be insulting OPs riding at all but could have some bearing on it - or the willingness to go happily lead of another horse might also suggest there is still some unresolved pain issues with being ridden?

 

[cronkmooar]

If you are going down the "Celeb" Trainer route then look at Richard Maxwell or "Max" as he is known.

I have never heard a bad word about him.

I have and he is very local to me! .

I have personal experience of when he first started and had his own yard - brilliant.

I have personal experience since he became a "celeb" horsewhispering type with an entourage - never, ever again!!!!

So theres now two people

How about chucking Kelly Marks into the mix?

 

[Fellewell]

I would call on the services of a good farrier with experience in remedial farriery for 'broken' dressage horses. Then I would ask a good saddler for his opinion of the horse in walk (which you say he can manage?)

The thing is you know about the dressage yard, then he went somewhere else and wasn't kept. How many names are in his passport? not that that is always reliable

You have done a lot for this horse including surgery which may/may not have been successful. He has also had loads of rehab with you. Don't let sentimentality get in the way of good animal husbandry. Good luck

 

[PercyMum]

Thanks again everyone for all the replies! I took him out for a hack in a bridle and he was fine - the usual being a fairy at everyone but he just hides behind my other horse and its all ok! I feel a bit better now I have some more options to consider so thank you all again. I am going to get an animal communicator in, and am waiting for a reply from Jason Webb and the behavior lady.

I fully take onboard that my experience/riding etc could be the problem but I have had alot of people look at him and me together and all say that its him that is the issue, not me. I also didn't say that when anyone else gets on him, he generally goes totally mad straight away, so I do get off lightly!! My trainer does get on with him but he does the same things to her as he does with me. Of course, there are a million and one things I could improve on but I do have the ability to make a horse do W/T/C and he won't!

To answer a few questions, he was imported as a 2 year old from Holland and cost a fortune. He went to a well-known dressage yard and then was swiftly ejected but I do not know why. He then was sent to a SJ yard at about 4/5 but then ended up at a dealers and was sold as a hunter. He then nearly killed the guy who bought him and he was sent to the place I got him from. He was sold to them with the wrong passport and when they had him checked out, his microchip popped up and they were able to identify him. SO he had been pushed from pillar to post at a very young age, so he must have issues from that but all this time in the same home I would have thought would get him over that.

I went to see him and initially said no, because I didn't want a problem horse. I went to see loads of others but couldn't get him out of my head so I bought him. I perhaps have not emphasized that when he isn't being a nutter, he is the most incredible horse to ride and to jump. Sadly though, the bonkers streak is coming out more and more. Pre-op, he jumped like a dream, and his flatwork was alright, but I felt he could do more and was not quite right. Part of me wishes I had not had the op done but I felt I had no choice.

So fingers crossed this new path might work! I have a lesson tomorrow so I will see what my trainer thinks of the new plan!

 

[123Jump!]

tbh, if he had a breakdown then he isn't really going to be the best behaved horse. maybe you could have him re-school and try again??

 

[Chavhorse]

Thanks again everyone for all the replies! I took him out for a hack in a bridle and he was fine - the usual being a fairy at everyone but he just hides behind my other horse and its all ok! I feel a bit better now I have some more options to consider so thank you all again. I am going to get an animal communicator in, and am waiting for a reply from Jason Webb and the behavior lady.

I fully take onboard that my experience/riding etc could be the problem but I have had alot of people look at him and me together and all say that its him that is the issue, not me. I also didn't say that when anyone else gets on him, he generally goes totally mad straight away, so I do get off lightly!! My trainer does get on with him but he does the same things to her as he does with me. Of course, there are a million and one things I could improve on but I do have the ability to make a horse do W/T/C and he won't!

To answer a few questions, he was imported as a 2 year old from Holland and cost a fortune. He went to a well-known dressage yard and then was swiftly ejected but I do not know why. He then was sent to a SJ yard at about 4/5 but then ended up at a dealers and was sold as a hunter. He then nearly killed the guy who bought him and he was sent to the place I got him from. He was sold to them with the wrong passport and when they had him checked out, his microchip popped up and they were able to identify him. SO he had been pushed from pillar to post at a very young age, so he must have issues from that but all this time in the same home I would have thought would get him over that.

I went to see him and initially said no, because I didn't want a problem horse. I went to see loads of others but couldn't get him out of my head so I bought him. I perhaps have not emphasized that when he isn't being a nutter, he is the most incredible horse to ride and to jump. Sadly though, the bonkers streak is coming out more and more. Pre-op, he jumped like a dream, and his flatwork was alright, but I felt he could do more and was not quite right. Part of me wishes I had not had the op done but I felt I had no choice.

So fingers crossed this new path might work! I have a lesson tomorrow so I will see what my trainer thinks of the new plan!

Good luck with everything sounds like there is much to think about. One last suggestion to try is Janet George (on this Forum), she has had great success with fettling many a so called un-rideable horse from people on this forum she may well be worth a pm or a phone call.

 

[MrsMozart]

He is sugar-intolerant (found this out after months of colic and a gastric scan) so has Happy Hoof and Speedibeet, and nothing else (not even treats). He is also on Magnitude (in the vain hope it might help!!) and Glucosamine. This was the diet recommended to me by the guys at Liphook. As for living out 24/7, we can't do that at our yard. ANd I think he would have a heart attack at staying out overnight. There be beasties out there you know.....

Not read all the replies, but take him off the Speedibeat now!

Grey Mare (thirteen year old IDxTB) was on it for three weeks. Drove her whappy! Think 180 degree leaps in the air, handstand bucks, cantering sideways the entire school length - and those were the good bits! The vet told me the technical reasoning, but I can't remember it all (never good at that); the general gist is that breakdown of the sugars in the carbs.

It took two weeks for it to get out of her system. So much better now

 

[Booboos]

OP I really feel for you!

I have no idea if any of this will help but desperate times call for desperate measures!

1. Have you tried a magnesium calmer? R is loopy without his just exaggerates his reactions to everything! It's a relatively cheap thing to try.

2. This one is more controvercial but if you can find a decent treeless saddle (e.g. Solutions) and try him in it. Again this is not a solution for everyone, but with his KS surgery he might like the feel of the treeless. You can rent Solutions by the week so again not a horrible cost.

 

[minkymoo]

I feel for you and don't have any new suggestions, but maybe turning away for a while would be a good option.

I'd also like to say that I think it is so sad that horses are now under such tremendous pressure at such a young age.

I'm not horsewoman of the year or anything, but I have never understood how horses are expected to do so much by the time they are 6 - passage, piaffe, GP etc. I don't feel horses are left to mature at the proper rate anymore to learn at a steady, sensible pace and it isn't a surprise so many break down and we now consider a horse to be 'old' by 12.

This is certainly no reflection on you OP, just that people like you are expected to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong. Very sad IMO. I am sure you will do what is best for the poor lad. X

 

[0ldmare]

Am I the only one who thinks this horse is in pain? I fully appreciate you have carried out major investigations, but it just doesn't add up - he lunges well so its not that he 'hates the school', he will lead out on a hack from another horse, but can't be hacked.

IMHO if you could find what is causing the pain you would probably have a lovely horse! I'd try the thermal imaging and see if that shows anything. If it doesn't I'd turn away. Rest may well put right whatever is wrong. Poor boy, I hope you can get to the root of it.

Good luck

 

[PercyMum]

Am I the only one who thinks this horse is in pain? I fully appreciate you have carried out major investigations, but it just doesn't add up - he lunges well so its not that he 'hates the school', he will lead out on a hack from another horse, but can't be hacked.

IMHO if you could find what is causing the pain you would probably have a lovely horse! I'd try the thermal imaging and see if that shows anything. If it doesn't I'd turn away. Rest may well put right whatever is wrong. Poor boy, I hope you can get to the root of it.

Good luck

Nope, I totally agree that he is showing classic pain symptoms - but no-one can find anything wrong with him! Everyone is saying its all in his head (vet, physio, trainer x 2). However, I have never heard of thermal imaging until I put this thread on and a number of people have suggested it(see, I knew you guys would come up with a suggestion!).

So, here is the plan that we now have after a few days of frantic phonecalls and mental meltdowns (mine and his!!)...

1. He is going to a trainer on Sunday. She is VERY sympathetic and experienced but doesn't take any c**p. Equally, she will tell me very quickly if she thinks his probelms are more deep-rooted than she can deal with. She also doesn't have the emotional connection that I have with him and she made the excellent point that because I know what he will do when I ask him to do something, he then does the things that I expect. She doesn't have this preconception so she might be able to get him over this cycle of bad/panicked behavior.

2. I have contacted a remedial/behavioral trainer who will come out if the other trainer doesn't work. She has some cunning plans that might help him out but she would like to see if a change of rider and location makes a change.

3. I have booked the vet for Monday for a final teeth/back/legs etc check before he goes for his little holiday. I will also ask him about thermal imaging and see what he thinks.

4. If all the above fails/draws a blank, then I am going to strap on some ACTUAL armour and get him out hacking, and I am not taking any nonsense. If that means dragging my poor other horse around with us, then so be it!

5. Last option is turn away for 6 months. Although all the pro's have advised against it but I haven't really got any other options after all this, have I??!!

My only worry is what if he gets better at the trainers but then goes back to his previous behavior when I get back on him??

Once again, my sincere thanks to you all for the kind messages and advice. Its been very much appreciated, and I will keep you all updated. I do love my boy and I so want him to be happy xxx

 

[Amaranta]

That's a bit harsh SusieT!?

Harsh but true

 

[PercyMum]

Harsh but true

No, it isn't true at all. PTS was suggested by a number of people who are dealing with this horse but I do not believe that this is the right thing to do, hence why my original post specifically stated this!! And I would much rather have this horse than any other horse. Except without the dangerous behavior...