What would you expect of a rising 4 year old...

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I have been watching some training videos on Youtube and reading a few books I found stashed in the book case on young horses recently which got me thinking. Through these, horses seem at varying levels of 'work' and 'progress' which I found quite interesting.

One of the videos I found very interesting was a 3 year old class in Germany where the horses were not ridden anywhere like what I thought they would be... it took me quite by surprise. They were ridden so forwards and little attention was paid to the front end other than ensuring it was soft and in front of the vertical slightly.

So, I was wondering people's thoughts and what they would hope to see if they were trying a rising four year old as a possible purchase for example?

I have a rising four year old at the moment who has had a stop start education up to now through no fault of her own, so is very green indeed and is still trying to work out what it is the leg means exactly... She needs to learn to draw the hand forwards and take the contact correctly by working more through, but that is not something that bothers me at the moment as she is good to get on and will walk, trot and canter without any fuss.
 
I'm riding a rising 5yo who is at the same educational level as most rising 3yo's. We haven't braved a canter under saddle yet for lots of reasons but we're hacking alone and in company and doing the odd bit of schooling. She understands moving forwards and is getting the hang of leg yielding around cars. I should do more schooling really but I only get to ride at weekends at the moment and she's unfit so we're just doing walk/trot hacks and seeing the world a bit for now.
 
Just forwards with a steady contact . Would not worry about anything else really just forwards ,straight and calm . Not too much schooling. lots of hacking out . Alot of horses are not even backed until they are 4 ,unfortunately some do too much as they are produced to sell but don't be in too much of a hurry, there is a whole lifetime in front of her
 
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I'm riding a rising 5yo who is at the same educational level as most rising 3yo's. We haven't braved a canter under saddle yet for lots of reasons but we're hacking alone and in company and doing the odd bit of schooling. She understands moving forwards and is getting the hang of leg yielding around cars. I should do more schooling really but I only get to ride at weekends at the moment and she's unfit so we're just doing walk/trot hacks and seeing the world a bit for now.

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I had one of those... although she is rising 9 now and only just getting into the swing of things due to various injuries and ailments
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Just forwards with a steady contact . Would not worry about anything else really just forwards ,straight and calm . Not too much schooling. lots of hacking out . Alot of horses are not even backed until they are 4 ,unfortunately some do too much as they are produced to sell but don't be in too much of a hurry, there is a whole lifetime in front of her

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I am not really thinking of mine, more rising 4 year olds in general... It just got me thinking when I was reading these books and watching the videos how very differently they are progressed. I know a lot depends on the horse too!

I agree though, throughness and drawing the hand forwards are the things I am aiming to achieve with my girlie, but interesting how they can differ so greatly.
 
In my opinion, this is the time to get a good mouth, an understanding of flexion and a response to the leg- short 15min schooling sessions once or twice a week would be the max I'd do, with hacking 2 or 3 times.
 
I agree, also I would want to brainwash pony into thinking you are a source of great fun and adventures, heading off resistance at the pass and asking acheivable questions.
 
It all depends, a lot of horses aren't even backed until they turn 4, so it's really difficult to generalise.

A friend bought a lovely Stedinger last May when he was 3, he was already established in walk, trot and canter with easy, smooth transitions and an incredible contact, really text-book, soft and light at all times... a pure joy to ride. He then spent the whole summer on holiday (four months in the field) and was slowly brought back to work in October, and they managed to carry on precisely from where they'd left. He is now starting some very light and easy lateral work, has been playing with flying changes which also seem very easy and will be aimed at Bundeschampionat qualifiers later on, in the Spring.

On the other hand, Frodo is rising 5 and is at the same level (because he was backed late, as a 4 year old). So it is really difficult to say.
 
I would want a 4yo going straight, in a nice rhythm and a soft contact, taking me forward. I wouldn't expect too much though personally. Just nice transitions, etc.

Work wise I'd only school 2/3 times for up to 20-30 mins and then hack 2/3 times. I think hacking is so so important at this age.
 
Depends on the horse, obviously.
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I've had horses that went calm, forward, straight pretty much from the get go and others that struggled with one or other of those basics for months. I know that's not a "popular" answer but it's the one every young horse person I admire has confirmed. Of course it's different if you have specific, time related goals in mind - a practised eye can tell you "if you want the horse to be doing x at this point, he should be doing y at this point". What that really means is if the horse is not doing y at the first point, then it won't be doing x on the schedule you want but it may - or not - be at that stage at some later date.

And while I agree that it's preferable to err on the side of safety, I don't think doing too little is necessarily a great deal better than doing too much. Horses have developmental needs and windows (just like people) and if you miss them it's likely the horse will never meet optimum levels of performance. Of course, this doesn't matter for most of us since we'll never need all that our horses could theoretically give and usually taking the time works out better for most horses IF the extra time is not related to aspects of the training going off the rails.

The "material" classes are just that, to judge the horses' "raw ability". Of course, one of those aspects is ridability (different from level of training) so how the horse performs in the situation comes into the test, but it's to assess the basis to go on. If a horse shows obvious signs of having it's training already going off the rails (behind the hand, leaning etc.) then that would count against. I think it's a bit of a "myth" that the Germans etc ride their young horses behind and massively strong in the hand as a matter of course - it was very interesting to me to talk to and get some help from someone who prepares young stallions for approvals and material classes in Germany, as it was quite a different approach than I'd been led to believe.

I think it's also important to remember material and YH classes are an ideal, not a goal. They do not represent where most horses *should* be, they test for the exceptional young horses that are hopefully destined for the top end. Even then, they favour prodigies and not every horse that's destined for a good GP career will hit those developmental markers at those particular times.

All of which is not at all pertinent.
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Personally, unless a horse is targeted for a specific end I'm not too fussed about how far along a horse is, riding wise, at 3 or 4. (I'm more concerned about what has come before in terms of things like turnout situation, social development, correct basic handling etc as I think all this has a much bigger impact on long term health and soundness than many people like to admit.) I find if the training and development goes well it all evens out at around 6 or so and not always in the way one would think. I've seen lots of promising 4 year olds turn into average 6 year olds and I know there are lines of horses that don't really come into their own until they're 7 or 8.
 
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In my opinion, this is the time to get a good mouth, an understanding of flexion and a response to the leg- short 15min schooling sessions once or twice a week would be the max I'd do, with hacking 2 or 3 times.

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That is interesting... I am dying to get mine hacking but we have a 60mph road which is the main road to the motorway (take that as minimum of 60mph too
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) so hoping to box her up and start taking her out to local areas once the clocks change!

In your opinion, should pole work etc be introduced at this point?
 
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I agree, also I would want to brainwash pony into thinking you are a source of great fun and adventures, heading off resistance at the pass and asking acheivable questions.

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That is a lovely way of looking at how it should be... how much easier would a horse be in the future if everyone carried this belief!
 
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Depends on the horse, obviously.
wink.gif
I've had horses that went calm, forward, straight pretty much from the get go and others that struggled with one or other of those basics for months. I know that's not a "popular" answer but it's the one every young horse person I admire has confirmed. Of course it's different if you have specific, time related goals in mind - a practised eye can tell you "if you want the horse to be doing x at this point, he should be doing y at this point". What that really means is if the horse is not doing y at the first point, then it won't be doing x on the schedule you want but it may - or not - be at that stage at some later date.

And while I agree that it's preferable to err on the side of safety, I don't think doing too little is necessarily a great deal better than doing too much. Horses have developmental needs and windows (just like people) and if you miss them it's likely the horse will never meet optimum levels of performance. Of course, this doesn't matter for most of us since we'll never need all that our horses could theoretically give and usually taking the time works out better for most horses IF the extra time is not related to aspects of the training going off the rails.

The "material" classes are just that, to judge the horses' "raw ability". Of course, one of those aspects is ridability (different from level of training) so how the horse performs in the situation comes into the test, but it's to assess the basis to go on. If a horse shows obvious signs of having it's training already going off the rails (behind the hand, leaning etc.) then that would count against. I think it's a bit of a "myth" that the Germans etc ride their young horses behind and massively strong in the hand as a matter of course - it was very interesting to me to talk to and get some help from someone who prepares young stallions for approvals and material classes in Germany, as it was quite a different approach than I'd been led to believe.

I think it's also important to remember material and YH classes are an ideal, not a goal. They do not represent where most horses *should* be, they test for the exceptional young horses that are hopefully destined for the top end. Even then, they favour prodigies and not every horse that's destined for a good GP career will hit those developmental markers at those particular times.

All of which is not at all pertinent.
smile.gif
Personally, unless a horse is targeted for a specific end I'm not too fussed about how far along a horse is, riding wise, at 3 or 4. (I'm more concerned about what has come before in terms of things like turnout situation, social development, correct basic handling etc as I think all this has a much bigger impact on long term health and soundness than many people like to admit.) I find if the training and development goes well it all evens out at around 6 or so and not always in the way one would think. I've seen lots of promising 4 year olds turn into average 6 year olds and I know there are lines of horses that don't really come into their own until they're 7 or 8.

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THIS!!! I was about to write an answer but this has summed it up and far more eloquently than mine would have been. Good post.
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It all depends, a lot of horses aren't even backed until they turn 4, so it's really difficult to generalise.

A friend bought a lovely Stedinger last May when he was 3, he was already established in walk, trot and canter with easy, smooth transitions and an incredible contact, really text-book, soft and light at all times... a pure joy to ride. He then spent the whole summer on holiday (four months in the field) and was slowly brought back to work in October, and they managed to carry on precisely from where they'd left. He is now starting some very light and easy lateral work, has been playing with flying changes which also seem very easy and will be aimed at Bundeschampionat qualifiers later on, in the Spring.

On the other hand, Frodo is rising 5 and is at the same level (because he was backed late, as a 4 year old). So it is really difficult to say.

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What is the level of the Bundeschampionat at 4 years? What sort of work are they expected to produce to qualify?
 
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I would want a 4yo going straight, in a nice rhythm and a soft contact, taking me forward. I wouldn't expect too much though personally. Just nice transitions, etc.

Work wise I'd only school 2/3 times for up to 20-30 mins and then hack 2/3 times. I think hacking is so so important at this age.

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The rhythm is something I am coming across time and time again... it is so important!
 
Rhythm, relaxation, the beginnings of a correct contact, starting to understand working into the outside rein from the inside leg. Suppleness developed from basic school figures. Understanding of the driving aids (off the leg), and beginning to understand the half halt (coming back a bit onto the hind leg without shortening the neck). those in essence would be my aims for the 4 yr old year.
 
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Depends on the horse, obviously.
wink.gif
I've had horses that went calm, forward, straight pretty much from the get go and others that struggled with one or other of those basics for months. I know that's not a "popular" answer but it's the one every young horse person I admire has confirmed. Of course it's different if you have specific, time related goals in mind - a practised eye can tell you "if you want the horse to be doing x at this point, he should be doing y at this point". What that really means is if the horse is not doing y at the first point, then it won't be doing x on the schedule you want but it may - or not - be at that stage at some later date.

And while I agree that it's preferable to err on the side of safety, I don't think doing too little is necessarily a great deal better than doing too much. Horses have developmental needs and windows (just like people) and if you miss them it's likely the horse will never meet optimum levels of performance. Of course, this doesn't matter for most of us since we'll never need all that our horses could theoretically give and usually taking the time works out better for most horses IF the extra time is not related to aspects of the training going off the rails.

The "material" classes are just that, to judge the horses' "raw ability". Of course, one of those aspects is ridability (different from level of training) so how the horse performs in the situation comes into the test, but it's to assess the basis to go on. If a horse shows obvious signs of having it's training already going off the rails (behind the hand, leaning etc.) then that would count against. I think it's a bit of a "myth" that the Germans etc ride their young horses behind and massively strong in the hand as a matter of course - it was very interesting to me to talk to and get some help from someone who prepares young stallions for approvals and material classes in Germany, as it was quite a different approach than I'd been led to believe.

I think it's also important to remember material and YH classes are an ideal, not a goal. They do not represent where most horses *should* be, they test for the exceptional young horses that are hopefully destined for the top end. Even then, they favour prodigies and not every horse that's destined for a good GP career will hit those developmental markers at those particular times.

All of which is not at all pertinent.
smile.gif
Personally, unless a horse is targeted for a specific end I'm not too fussed about how far along a horse is, riding wise, at 3 or 4. (I'm more concerned about what has come before in terms of things like turnout situation, social development, correct basic handling etc as I think all this has a much bigger impact on long term health and soundness than many people like to admit.) I find if the training and development goes well it all evens out at around 6 or so and not always in the way one would think. I've seen lots of promising 4 year olds turn into average 6 year olds and I know there are lines of horses that don't really come into their own until they're 7 or 8.

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Great reply... thanks!

I am finding watching the videos etc so interesting and enlightening. Like you, I had heard the 'myth' of the German horses being behind etc. which is why I was so pleasantly surprised when I watched those 3 year old class videos. The horses were positively forwards and so loose in their bodies... it was very enjoyable to watch!

I also think you raise a real interesting point about their life pre-ridden career too. When I was initially looking for a 3 year old, I viewed a few who had not really enjoyed a 'natural' life as babies. I have always ensured my rising 3 year old gelding has had the best possible start to his life by living out 24/7 (have sent him somewhere to achieve this) and as a result, he has been a horse but still have great inhand manners. So when I went to see the mare I now own, I loved that she had lived in a big herd for most of her life and had a very natural upbringing. I think it really is important, to my horses anyway!

Really glad I posted this topic... finding it really interesting
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Rhythm, relaxation, the beginnings of a correct contact, starting to understand working into the outside rein from the inside leg. Suppleness developed from basic school figures. Understanding of the driving aids (off the leg), and beginning to understand the half halt (coming back a bit onto the hind leg without shortening the neck). those in essence would be my aims for the 4 yr old year.

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I read a really interesting article on one of the sites I found which really stressed the importance of them learning the half halt without shortening the neck... but can't find it again now! From personal experience, I have found this difficult in the past with Grace as she would come right back at you in the half halt and it has taken a lot of work to eliminate this. It is definitely a help if you can get this right from as early as possible to prevent the difficulties as you progress.
 
Where I am based we have 7 rising 4 year olds all bought from Goresbridge unbroken last year. They are all completely different from one another in build, brain and natural way of going (but they are all Irish). When they first arrived they were put out in the field to get over travelling etc for a month or so and brought in to break and start hacking and doing a bit of schooling and jumping little jumps (they are intended to become eventers). Depending on how quickly they each took to break and do a bit with they then went out in the field for another 2-3 months to chill out. Some took 3 weeks some a couple of months to get out of the stable with a rider on going forwards on their own without a lead. But the whole idea was to just let them see what life is about and see the world a little more. As long as they learnt to go forwards from the leg into a very basic contact- not necessarily in any form of outline, just taking the rein forwards- that was all we were after- just make everything easy with as little pressure as possible. For their 4 year old year it will be just mostly building on this basic foundation- come in from the field, learn a bit more, go out again and so on and so forth. They will learn to work in more of an outline, jump a small course of jumps and go xc schooling- but only to pootle through water and jump some little ditches and walk up and down steps just to get the idea of what it's all about, but again with not too much pressure and still trying to keep everything fun- if this takes a few months then great, if it takes a year+ then thats also fine.
But we have a real long-term persepective with these babies- some people, like the 3 year old classes in Germany etc put more pressure on the youngsters as it's their business to sell 'produced' 3 year olds as for many clients they want a young horse that is 'ready to go' (even if it's not mentally ready) but, as I say, they have a mostly completely different outlook for their horses future careers.
 
if broken and working i would like it to be able to hack out... that's about it!

personally i don't like 3yros in the school so once mine are fairly safe i hack them and get them out to see the world.

saying that, my rising 4yro was broken in December, hacked for 2 weeks and turned away as he is so big and gangly.
he will be left out now until April when the evenings are lighter and we can start up hacking again.

by the end of summer i would hope he would be able to w,t,c easily in a baby outline, pop a fence, ditch, water etc and hack alone/in company reasonably sensibly as well as having a few outings to some local dressage to get him out and about.
 
I honestly think that people expect too much of their youngster and try to rush them into being what they want too quickly.

This is proved by all the early backing you see going on.

I think if a young horse at backin (4) can walk, trot and canter in a balanced manner that we shouldnt be asking them to collect or show more advanced movements. It can put unneccessary stress on young joints and you end up with problems later on. I beleive they should be started, show the basic, balanced then turned away, have done this with great success in the past and had no bother. Rushihg them in the first year I found counter productive to advancing them in later years.

I would rather be one of those people who others look mat and go 'her horse is still novicey'' as I will still have a sound and rideable horse in its later life.

Nikki xxx
 
^^^^^^^^ like millitiger said.

My 3 rising 4 yo TB mare only learned to canter in the school about March of her 4yo year. Before that she could canter in a straight line up a hill on a hack, but in the school was a no-no even though she was short coupled and well balanced.

I think we are seeing a difference here between those of us who have and are used to 'dressage' horses who are continentally bred, and Irish 'potential eventer' babies.

Fiona
 
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^^^^^^^^ like millitiger said.

My 3 rising 4 yo TB mare only learned to canter in the school about March of her 4yo year. Before that she could canter in a straight line up a hill on a hack, but in the school was a no-no even though she was short coupled and well balanced.

I think we are seeing a difference here between those of us who have and are used to 'dressage' horses who are continentally bred, and Irish 'potential eventer' babies.

Fiona

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I think your final point about the difference between dressage youngsters and eventing youngsters is a really interesting one Fiona... And it is one I had not considered before now to be honest.
 
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I would want a 4yo going straight, in a nice rhythm and a soft contact, taking me forward. I wouldn't expect too much though personally. Just nice transitions, etc.

Work wise I'd only school 2/3 times for up to 20-30 mins and then hack 2/3 times. I think hacking is so so important at this age.

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I totally agree thats all you want at this stage. Some of those horses in Germany have been produced to sell and the vendors aren't worried if they have future soundness or temperement problems from being pushed too soon.
 
My irish mare, who came from Goresbridge in June, turned 4 at the end of June 2009. I gave her until August to relax and gain condition in the field, and then hopped on and began playing. She was 'broken' but only in the rough Irish dealer sense and not at all what I would consider broken or backed.

We hacked for a month in company, then ventured alone, and in November did prelim dressage- the scores weren't great, but she tried her heart out and saw the sights of a show. In December we introduced leg yield and a shoulder fore type feeling, and began to push for a little longer stride, and collect for a few steps and took her to a jumping show to play in warm up. A fortnight ago, we went jumping at Addington and gained a double clear in the 2'6-2'9 class. Very chuffed.

She hacks alone, and in company, in front or behind, hunts, is snaffle mouthed, jumps courses and baby grids with little 2 ft ish bounces, and oxers. Some may say she's done too much, but she's happy, eager to work and content. She jumps no more than once a week, and schools 2 other times, and hacks 3 times. She's had several 2/3 week mini holidays, and I'm more than pleased with her.

Similarly, we've got a warmblood 5 year old who can do elementary tests at home, competes novice but can't get the jumping lark AT ALL. And we've got a 6 year old who has only really been balanced enough to canter with a rider in the school this year, a month or so before he turned 6!

I like to think my mare will tell me if she's done enough. I prepare to be critisised, btu that's ok, it's my choice and I think she's doing well.

I think, as much as it being to each individual horse, I think the owner/rider's commitments come largely into play. If I couldn't hack through winter because of day light, she would have had the time off completely rather than just school her. Likewise, if I didn't have an arena, she would have hacked entirely until the fields were dry enough to school in come spring.
 
The 4 year old test at the BuCha is a 'riding horse' test (not even 'dressage horse'), just walk, trot (both rising and sitting) and canter, some lengthening, some halts, a lot of stretching (give the reins so the horse can stretch down, forward and out both in trot and in canter) and some serpentines...This is what I remember from Frodo's competition last year.
I've only been once to the BuCha but I'd say that for the 3- and 4-year olds, what really matters seems to be the quality of the paces (and impressiveness... horses like Lissaro van de Helle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igHMZ6NnmCQ who won last year's three-year-old final). Conversely the 5- and 6-year-old classes are more training-oriented. In other words the 3 and 4 year olds all seem to move in a mind-blowing way, with fabulous walks, 10-scoring trots and canters etc, while with the older horses you can occasionally see horses with more average paces (relatively speaking; obviously they still have to score over 80% to qualify...) but really good training. I don't know if this makes any sense. At our yard there's currently a BuCha mare, rising 7, whose trot and canter are beautiful but you wouldn't drool over them the way you would at some younger horses...but she still did fantastically well as her training is so correct etc.

As for the other aspect, I've been in Germany for almost three years now, and I might have been just lucky but I have never, ever seen things like what you have described. This is not Holland
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Especially in competitions -- whenever I have competed, in fact, I have been shocked at how strict judges are if a horse's head falls behind the vertical during a test, or if the Scales of Training are not followed. Obviously there will be people who do not train classically, but in my own personal (and therefore limited) experience, the trainers I've worked / am working with are really really classical and quite outspoken about it too
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I could just tell from your wee vid of her working in the school how much better balanced she was than any 3/4yo I have had (all Irish or TB bred).

Her canter (speed and balance) was so far in advance of any horse I have seen who wasn't a WB.

Fiona
 
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The 4 year old test at the BuCha is a 'riding horse' test (not even 'dressage horse'), just walk, trot (both rising and sitting) and canter, some lengthening, some halts, a lot of stretching (give the reins so the horse can stretch down, forward and out both in trot and in canter) and some serpentines...This is what I remember from Frodo's competition last year.
I've only been once to the BuCha but I'd say that for the 3- and 4-year olds, what really matters seems to be the quality of the paces (and impressiveness... horses like Lissaro van de Helle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igHMZ6NnmCQ who won last year's three-year-old final). Conversely the 5- and 6-year-old classes are more training-oriented. In other words the 3 and 4 year olds all seem to move in a mind-blowing way, with fabulous walks, 10-scoring trots and canters etc, while with the older horses you can occasionally see horses with more average paces (relatively speaking; obviously they still have to score over 80% to qualify...) but really good training. I don't know if this makes any sense. At our yard there's currently a BuCha mare, rising 7, whose trot and canter are beautiful but you wouldn't drool over them the way you would at some younger horses...but she still did fantastically well as her training is so correct etc.

As for the other aspect, I've been in Germany for almost three years now, and I might have been just lucky but I have never, ever seen things like what you have described. This is not Holland
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Especially in competitions -- whenever I have competed, in fact, I have been shocked at how strict judges are if a horse's head falls behind the vertical during a test, or if the Scales of Training are not followed. Obviously there will be people who do not train classically, but in my own personal (and therefore limited) experience, the trainers I've worked / am working with are really really classical and quite outspoken about it too
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Thanks... I did wonder what the kind of levels were for each age group!

That canter on the video you posted is absolutely jaw dropping... thank you so much for showing me the video!
 
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I could just tell from your wee vid of her working in the school how much better balanced she was than any 3/4yo I have had (all Irish or TB bred).

Her canter (speed and balance) was so far in advance of any horse I have seen who wasn't a WB.

Fiona

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I hadn't really noticed, but it is has been quite some time since I had a baby horse so I guess you just forget! I can't remember what Dizz was like when I first got her
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I am sure she was not in the slightest bit balanced because she was a big gangly orange thing
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Her trot and canter work needs to be a lot more forwards and through in my opinion so I guess I have just focussed on that when looking at the videos, but have just watched it again and I do know what you mean now.

Does anyone have any videos of 3/4 year old Irish horses under saddle?

Or even any other breeds so I can look at the differences or the similarities. This is by no means a comparison of the individial horses, more how they are working at this age and how the different breeds compare.

My rising 3 year old is out of my IDxTB mare by a Dutch Warmblood, so that should be an interesting one... Half Irish and half Dutch
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No vids, just still pics I'm afraid. I definitely wasn't thinking about throughness though at that stage, more just go, stop and turn.

Mine were definitely backward 'irish' though.
 
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