What would you pay for this horse?

Goldenstar said:
Not wanting to pay for an mri is a complete red herring I have never had an mri done for lameness .
Much can done by a good experianced vet with a combination of assessments of different surfaces flexions and nerve blocking it’s nonsense to say I don’t want to pay for an mri so I am doing nothing .
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I mentioned MRI specifically because I was responding to someone who mentioned it. I don't use any conventional diagnostics. I don't use x-rays, ultrasound, nerve blocks, flexion tests. Vets are not super human creatures with mystical powers. If you have the right experience, knowledge, education, open mind etc, you can achieve so much without the vets intervention. 9 times out of 10 their prescribed treatment is the same in any case.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I mentioned MRI specifically because I was responding to someone who mentioned it. I don't use any conventional diagnostics. I don't use x-rays, ultrasound, nerve blocks, flexion tests. Vets are not super human creatures with mystical powers. If you have the right experience, knowledge, education, open mind etc, you can achieve so much without the vets intervention. 9 times out of 10 their prescribed treatment is the same in any case.
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I don’t think vets are mystical creatures they are highly trained medical professionals and the sort of vets I use are extremely skilled in doing dianosiscs that’s all they do everyday .
However the fact that you don’t vaccinate for tetanus pretty well says it all , I don’t need to understand why you manage as you as I am not to learn anything useful from it .
Personally I think a horse that pottles round the block deserves the same respect as one that jumps a metre forty .
 
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I'm checking out of this thread now. It's turning into a complete interrogation of my entire management system. If only some of you knew.....

Thanks to those who answered my original Q. I made an offer on the horse, which was robustly rejected and I wanted to see if I was miles out. If I end up with the horse (quick, some of you, RSPCA number at the ready for the poor sod!), I'll come back and update.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I don't use any conventional diagnostics.
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Do you use crystals? Psychic? Ask the horse? Aura? Magic? Wave your hands over suspected area? These are unconventional.

I’m confused as to what you mean by conventional diagnostics. To me conventional diagnostics are hoof testers, obvious signs of lameness (wounds/swellings), blood tests, urine tests, scan, X-ray, flexion test, nerve blocks, actual physical examination (ie. Pain on palpation/unusual lumps bumps), trot ups, clinical suspicion if obvious signs, you saw the injury happen eg. Kicks, signs of infection/swabs, Bute trial. The list goes on. A Vet isn’t necessary for all diagnostics but they are still conventional.
 
One of my horses went a little unlevel on odd strides a few weeks ago. It had just been re shod. As I too am not 'naive' or 'new to horses' I assumed that it was likely that the farrier had nailed a bit tight or close to the white line. Farrier came and took shoe off but could see no place where there would be a problem but the horse did have a deep crack up the heel so we treated that for a couple of days. The rider rang me (it is a top sport horse) and I said OK time for vet. After a full (and I do mean full) assessment in the vet clinic it became obvious that the horse only came sound when nerve blocked behind the knee. Full ultra sound scans and x rays revealed nothing. Only after an MRI scan did we find that the horse had a stress fracture to the proximal cannon bone plus a chip and ligament damage.

I doubt any of your barefoot track walking on gravel would heal this - in fact there is every chance it might allow the horse to keep moving and cause further damage.

I too would not spend the money that this will have cost me, on a riding horse, but I would not be naive enough to think that I could diagnose and cure the lameness without even knowing what was causing it.

Would I buy a lame horse however good/suitable? Not a chance. In my world riding/working a lame horse at any level, is cruel. End of.
 
I wouldn't have it even if it was being given away & I had no livery to pay.

I'm sorry, but to me the thought of taking this on & not at least having a vet out to try & identify the cause of an ongoing lameness is plain wrong. The problem could be almost anywhere, assuming it can be fixed by taking shoes off is not a good plan in my opinion.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I mentioned MRI specifically because I was responding to someone who mentioned it. I don't use any conventional diagnostics. I don't use x-rays, ultrasound, nerve blocks, flexion tests. Vets are not super human creatures with mystical powers. If you have the right experience, knowledge, education, open mind etc, you can achieve so much without the vets intervention. 9 times out of 10 their prescribed treatment is the same in any case.
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I know the OP has stepped away from the thread, but this reminds me of the thread a while ago where several posters managed to diagnose a horse with kissing spines simply by looking at one still photo on here.
 
So if you have a traumatic injury and end up in A&E will you refuse an x-ray?
If you have a horse with a suddenly swollen and hot leg would you prefer to guess which soft tissue structure is damaged and guess at when it's sufficiently repaired?
If you have a horse with a suppressed appetite, cloudy urine and cramped up behind will you pass over the blood test or urine sample?
And you don't vaccinate for tetanus?

I'd say don't buy the horse. Buy a rocking horse, I find they don't generally require the vet
 
ycbm said:
I've done three, essentially that way. Walk in hand on roads. Walk ridden on roads. Trot when sound to trot. When sound at trot they are sound at canter but if you never do it it doesn't matter. Provided they walk enough to trim their own feet, that's all a barefoot rehab actually is.

I don't have a track or pea gravel, the OP does. That makes things even easier.
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Exactly. Lots of walking and then riding. The OP doesnt do that.
 
Nari said:
I wouldn't have it even if it was being given away & I had no livery to pay.

I'm sorry, but to me the thought of taking this on & not at least having a vet out to try & identify the cause of an ongoing lameness is plain wrong. The problem could be almost anywhere, assuming it can be fixed by taking shoes off is not a good plan in my opinion.
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This sums up my feelings. This thread makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't doubt that the OP is very experienced and it sounds like she has an enviable set up and not unlike the way I like to do things too. However, to take on a lame horse and not have a vet look at it is, to me, completely unethical. You could be barking up the wrong tree for a very long time and in the meantime you have a horse that's in pain. I'm sorry, for me that is not justifiable.
 
TheMule said:
So if you have a traumatic injury and end up in A&E will you refuse an x-ray?
If you have a horse with a suddenly swollen and hot leg would you prefer to guess which soft tissue structure is damaged and guess at when it's sufficiently repaired?
If you have a horse with a suppressed appetite, cloudy urine and cramped up behind will you pass over the blood test or urine sample?
And you don't vaccinate for tetanus?

I'd say don't buy the horse. Buy a rocking horse, I find they don't generally require the vet
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Dont be silly. If you keep your horse on a track and dont shoe then it never goes lame or suffers from disease. Honestly, the OP isnt new to horses and she has magical powers of observation so doesnt need to worry about any of those things!
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I have a totally different regime in the first place. I don't shoe and so I see any changes in the feet very quickly. Horses are on a track system and I watch how they move over various surfaces. We have pea gravel and they move over it confidently, for example but it means I can immediately if one is more cautious on it. I carefully manage diet and exercise and horses pretty much self trim.

Any work up at the vets results in same thing - Bute, box rest and remedial shoeing, which is the opposite of what she needed typically.
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Then you would have had a dead horse.
My horse had a keratoma, took a quarter of his pedal bone and was still growing. If i would have done what others had said and turned him away for a few months it would have fractured his pedal bone. There was no outward sign on his hoof at all
He had an xray then had to have an mri to make sure it wasnt a bone cyst.
Had the op last june and is now back in work.
Had heart bar on his hoof for six months as it needed to be kept totally solid while healing now he is back bf.

How would you have found and fixed that without a lameness work up and surgery?
 
Perhaps it hasnt occured to OP that the seller now realises the lame horse will not be seen by a vet , and is keeping the price high to make sure the sale wont happen?
I am very concerned by the attitude of a poste rthat believes 'all' lamenesses will be cured by a barefoot regime. Arrogant nonsense.
Recently vetted 2 different horses which I wanted to buy , one of which was slightly lame [it was barefoot to 'help ' it !!] , xray s found ring and sidebone - in a 5 yr old. Second vetting , vetting found worn joints high in leg [ horse had shown no lameness] Neither of these horses could have been helped or even diagnosed anyone not a vet.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
It's forelimb. No idea what it is. Owner is being very open about it being lame but if they know why it's lame, they're not letting on. Would be prepared to pts if necessary. Wouldn't pass on.
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Ok, I thought you had an idea of what it was based on experience. If you've no idea what the issue might be I'd be running away. I'm a great believer in barefoot but there are so many things that it can't resolve.

I'm struggling to get my head around the owner. Open about the lameness, no conscience about selling a lame horse, no qualms that the horse is intermittently experiencing pain/discomfort, possibly prepared to not disclose the cause of the lameness, probably unwilling to investigate the lameness and yet expects someone to pay a price for 'potential'

I wouldn't even give that type of person a token payment.
 
15hh IME is the sort of height that a lot of people (including myself!) are desirous of: ideal for shorties like me who want a "horse" rather than a "pony" and the 14.3hh/15.2hh ish size-range is just about right.

However..... however.

For the horse OP refers to, and considering the discussions about this. To be brutally honest, IF, and I say if, I was tempted to take a punt on this horse, then I think my top price would be £600 very max. Meat-price-plus-a-bit-for-luck basically.

You could spend a fortune on it, qualify it even, and the dang thing will always tend to go lame on you just when you think you're getting somewhere.

Not worth it IMO when there's plenty of good young horses out there with nice breeding; pop over to Ireland if you're really wanting something!

Think the owner of the horse is a total f@ckwit TBH: think they're taking the yellow-liquid big time.

I'd walk away.
 
Price- should be meat money or free. Could be anything from bruising to a chronic soft tissue injury

I don't doubt OP 'thinks' she is very experienced- any idiot who doesn't vaccinate for at least tetanus is in my view not a good home for any equine welfare wise.
As for telling where it is by watching a horse - obviously everyone else missed that trick in horse management you must be really special...
I see many many people who call themselves 'experienced' riding lame, unhappy horses or walking 'sound' horses you wince as you watch them walk. It really makes me sad for horses a lot of the time.
Maybe OP is truely a wonderful horsewoman.. but the lack of vaccination doesnt stand up well!
 
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I am interested in where she is “sourcing” Bute from. This is a prescription only medicine that can only be dispensed with a valid prescription signed by a MRCVS or directly from a Vet. Anyone who is selling it on or having it from a different source needs to be investigated by the RCVS and possibly the police.
 
Sorry the others are right, the horse is worth nothing. My horse is lame with somewhat unknown reasons (they know the area, hopefully, but unsure if it's the only problem). Despite him being capable of high level dressage, showjumping, eventing etc, he's worthless now. Always will be, to everyone except me. He'll never be fully right now. He'll probably never jump again. Maybe not even ridden again. I paid £3000 3 years ago for him when he was sound. If I sold him now, which I never would, I wouldn't take money for him.

It's your gamble to take. But it's horrible seeing your horse struggling and on bute to be comfortable (he's booked in for surgery don't worry, if I could get it done sooner I would but there's no spaces sooner than 2 weeks time).
 
I’m more than a little amazed at this thread. Why is someone asking a silly price for a lame horse and why would someone think they could take it on without recourse to a vet? I’d call that neglect/animal cruelty. There’s no way, for example, that the OP could have diagnosed floating bone chips in my horse’s hock. Having a track system and pea gravel is, I fear, of no use here! The x rays I had taken were very useful, however.
 
what a strange thread!

was the horse advertised as companion only or lame horse for sale?

Reading this it sound to me that the OP was thinking of taking a chance on a nice young, but lame horse by popping it on her barefoot system and seeing/hoping it improves/becomes sound. If it didnt, she'd probably PTS rather than investigate(?)

How much is the horse worth(?) who knows, no-one has seen it. If you think its in its hoof, it could be as simple was an abscess, poor shoeing or something more serious.

How much is it worth, depends on how much your happy to lose if it turnout to be something more serious.
 
I think people may be misunderstanding what the seller and the OP recognise as 'lame'.

Having said that, not vaccinating for tetanus is very misguided, imo.
 
Bayracer said:
I am interested in where she is “sourcing” Bute from. This is a prescription only medicine that can only be dispensed with a valid prescription signed by a MRCVS or directly from a Vet. Anyone who is selling it on or having it from a different source needs to be investigated by the RCVS and possibly the police.
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You'd be taking up half the resources of the Police. All the large livery yards I know stock bute and dish it out like smarties.

I stock it myself, my vet is happy for me to keep ten sachets in case of emergency.

I suspect as the OP avoids vets she buys it from the unlicensed and illegal to import seller Abler.com
 
Despite the thrashing, I thought I'd return with an update!!

I bought the horse (meat money price). Lame on off fore. Took it home and we are now nearly 3 weeks into barefoot rehab. It is sound. Sound and comfortable in field, on road, on lunge (both ways) and on pea gravel. Haven't even needed hoof boots. Clean bill of health from physio. Had the vet out for injection on other horse and she informally and off the record cast her eye for me and declared it sound. Ridden work starts this week, as she needs to do miles of hacking out to improve her feet. So I'm none the wiser as to what it was. All I can see is that she was badly shod and has poor, compromised feet - under run heels, contracted frogs, weak palmar hoof but they're already showing signs of improvement. She has absolutely clean legs in every other regard. So I now have a very beautiful, immaculately bred, very expensive eventer for a couple of hundred quid. She has beautiful manners and has been beautifully produced. On this occasion, I'm so glad that there are so many people out there who are oblivious to the wonders of barefoot!
 
I think if you had told people as well that the horse had terrible feet, you'd have had different responses. Intermittent lameness could mean anything, bad feet could be just bad ownership. Mine had loads of cracks in his hooves when I got him, but it was all superficial. However his arthritis in his stifles didn't show its face til a few years later. He wasn't lame though when I got him. He was just neglected.

Good luck though hope the horse stays sound.
 
stormox said:
Well if theyve really done absolutely nothing to tryand find the cause of the problem and I liked the horse I would ask if I could have it for a couple of weeks and really have a good look, possibly even get an xray done if I thought itd help diagnose any problems.
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Me too and let them foot the vet bills. It could be so many things that aren't in the slightest bit worrying. I love horses around the 15hh height, so I definitely wouldn't consider that a minus either.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Despite the thrashing, I thought I'd return with an update!!

I bought the horse (meat money price). Lame on off fore. Took it home and we are now nearly 3 weeks into barefoot rehab. It is sound. Sound and comfortable in field, on road, on lunge (both ways) and on pea gravel. Haven't even needed hoof boots. Clean bill of health from physio. Had the vet out for injection on other horse and she informally and off the record cast her eye for me and declared it sound. Ridden work starts this week, as she needs to do miles of hacking out to improve her feet. So I'm none the wiser as to what it was. All I can see is that she was badly shod and has poor, compromised feet - under run heels, contracted frogs, weak palmar hoof but they're already showing signs of improvement. She has absolutely clean legs in every other regard. So I now have a very beautiful, immaculately bred, very expensive eventer for a couple of hundred quid. She has beautiful manners and has been beautifully produced. On this occasion, I'm so glad that there are so many people out there who are oblivious to the wonders of barefoot!
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HAHA!! Well done you. I've already posted, and my immediate thought was an issue with her feet as apparently 90% of problems are foot related. Let us know how she progresses :)
 
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