Clava
Well-Known Member
My horses are not bred to be eaten and killed, cattle are. If they were meat horses in France than no I would have no more sympathy.
Whatever your views on a badger cull in the fight against bovine TB please watch
- Thread starter TED2010
- Start date
My horses are not bred to be eaten and killed, cattle are. If they were meat horses in France than no I would have no more sympathy.
mon
Well-Known Member
I hope no one ever turns up at your place and orders destruction of apparently healtHy animas on the back of a test whether they are for meat or not they are his animals being killed without his say, and would you be there whilst they are shot?.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
I watched fractions of it, could not watch it all to sad 
.
Poor guy poor cattle. This was a very moving sad clip gut wrenching .
.Poor guy poor cattle. This was a very moving sad clip gut wrenching .
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
There is NO EXCUSE for killing illegally
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
But the cattle are being culled, that is why farmers are protesting, for each individual farmer this is a dreadful thing to have to cope with, to see his animals slaughtered, when he can do nothing to prevent it, just as with Foot and Mouth, only there are no funeral pyres across the countryside and the mass effect is not so economically disastrous.
The video showed how one farmer, an ordinary chap chose to record his view and you have picked up on the "murder", there are two vets who are also concerned, not to mention all the evidence, what is so wonderful about badgers? Can I assume you are not anti fox-hunting as this is not a mass cull, oh no, it is a hobby for many people so can't be tolerated either.
Last edited:
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
duplicate
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
But the cattle are being massively culled, that is why farmers are protesting, for each individual farmer this is a dreadful thing to have to cope with, to see his animals slaughtered, when he can do nothing to prevent it, just as with Foot and Mouth [not such a debilitating disease by the way], only there are no funeral pyres across the countryside.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
In your opinion there is no excuse, but in someone who has his livelihood and that of his family and of his employees this is a good reason to defy the law. a law which says crows are bad and seagulls are good....... please re-read Animal Farm.
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
Staged in what way? As for the 'murder' comment... It is used (incorrectly) by many people about animals when emotions are a bit high... Other than that, which I could ignore as I do when many others bandy the term around, the footage appeared quite genuine to me in circumstances/experience...
So if an animal is going to be killed for meat, it's perfectly ok to slaughter it 'early' and not for meat? If it is being kept for breeding it's obviously just a hobby and ok to slaughter unnecessarily? Everything is going to die so by that argument, your horse being a leisure not meat animal is irrelevant if someone decides it should be slaughtered - it's going to die at some point anyway...
It'll be interesting to see the results of the welsh vaccination program... Available evidence is undoubtedly conflicting as to the best way forward but in the meantime, making light of the animals being slaughtered or the livelihood of the farmer, is somewhat crass IMO...
Alec Swan
...
Indeed it will, but I suspect that the problem will be that one side, or the other wont get the result that they were hoping for, and it'll be back to a programme and the argument, of killing them, or not.
I'm a little confused as to how this planned for vaccination programme is supposed to work. Will it be given by injection? If it is, then would a pregnant sow pass on a partial immunity to her unborn cubs, and would that be an immunity to BTB, or the vaccine? Does anyone know?
Alec.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
He was being filmed watching his stock being stunned, hauled off etc etc with a sad look on his face and stroking the animals. That is bound to be what he does on camera - he's hardly going to stand there coldly and walk off commenting how much money he has lost. The biggest effect he could have is tug on the heart strings and talk about how sad he is at losing his cattle which he loved so much and is devastated that they are now dead. More the the point he is devastated more so for the loss to his pocket. Which is fine - it's a business, but using the word 'murder' is the most ridiculous and laughable comment! He was actually saying that badgers are murderers! Lol - I'm afraid he lost credibility in my eyes from that comment. I mean wtf?!!! I wonder if the badgers premeditate the murder or if it's second degree?!
Joanna710
Well-Known Member
Well said.
Alec Swan
...
I'm sorry Moomin1, but though A_A's response may be a trifle strong, the sentiments were entirely correct, and your post was an insult to any caring and committed stockman.
Alec.
Last edited:
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
But bovine TB is not a new problem? Why didn't the farmers deal with it 60+ years ago? As I stated in an earlier thread my great-grandma died of TB as during the war she packed bombs using old cow straw... Which had nothing to do with badgers. There is evidence that TB stays dormant/has a long incubation period so what seem healthy cows are carrying the disease and spread it around the country. IMHO I don't feel a cull will work.. It will not be rigorous enough and I don't feel badgers are the main reasons. I think farmers and scientists should work together to solve this issue.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Unrealistic! An animal has to be dying on its feet to be evicted, and by then it will have infected the whole sett (a badger sett is a bit like the over-crowded slum accomodation which is heavily implicated in human TB!)
And healthy badgers are often alone and wandering - particularly males!
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
I know someone who is doing research into badger family dynamics and illness etc so may help shed light on this whole subject.
Alec Swan
...
shortstuff,
you may well be to young to remember 60 years ago, as I am clearly, but following on from the War Effort, the Ministry of Agriculture was formed, and I remember very well how Ministry vets were testing cattle for TB, and then, as now, those who farm had no say what so ever in the decision making.
Pointing out that farmers should have sorted the problem, is a facile remark. Had they been allowed to do so, then we wouldn't be in the muddle which we are now. Government, and desperate for votes from the masses, will agree to anything, rather than consider right from wrong, and it's Government, YES 60 years ago and beyond, who are responsible, not those who farm.
Alec.
you may well be to young to remember 60 years ago, as I am clearly, but following on from the War Effort, the Ministry of Agriculture was formed, and I remember very well how Ministry vets were testing cattle for TB, and then, as now, those who farm had no say what so ever in the decision making.
Pointing out that farmers should have sorted the problem, is a facile remark. Had they been allowed to do so, then we wouldn't be in the muddle which we are now. Government, and desperate for votes from the masses, will agree to anything, rather than consider right from wrong, and it's Government, YES 60 years ago and beyond, who are responsible, not those who farm.
Alec.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Why were they not allowed to do anything? Why was nothing done If the problem is easy to solve by culling badgers? Or is it not? Is the problem perhaps a lot more complicated then we all believe?
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
I agree... Lies, damn lies and statistics and that's before twisting to suit agendas...
I'm not totally sure on the implementation yet - the U turn to vaccination (pilot in Pembrokeshire) is fairly recent but AIUI, the idea is that farmers, landowners, rangers etc will be trained in the use of traps, IM injecting and release... Arguably a burden on farming communities so far as time and commitment is concerned - some of whom, being realistic, may well also find temptation in different methods once Mr Brock is parked in a trap... It'll be years I guess before there is any real information forthcoming... I believe the BCG is being used so uptake rates are way less than 100% and it'll be way less than 100% trapped and vaccinated... 60% or less uptake (totally questionable rates given general uptake and very young animals are unlikely to be trapped) and maybe 30% or so of the population caught/released will see a low vaccination rate and that's if every bit of land is involved...
Not sure about the placental transmission at time of vaccination... Pregnancy in humans was contraindicated so not much info there... There is no (to my knowledge) immunity passed from mother to unborn during subsequent pregnancies in any species...
FWIW, I don't think eradication is possible... Vaccination of cattle and a more sensitive test to differentiate vaccinated reactors from non vaccinated seems the most straightforward to me... The EU don't agree...
I agree the use of the word murder is overtly emotive but it's certainly not restricted to this chap... The suggestion that any emotions he displayed or devastation implied was purely for the cameras though or financially motivated, no, I cant' agree with that...
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
NO!!!
Illegal is illegal . Because your not allowed too period.
Its illegal to kill swans
its illegal to kill owls .
No reason to kill badgers.
Animal Farm has nothing to do with this.
The law is there for a reason to protect certain animals . If you have a problem with badgers you go through the right channels . And do not take the law into your own hands .
If you have a license for a gun and a license to cull badgers thats one thing , but doing it for personal reasons its wrong plain and simples.
Last edited:
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Cattle are tested regularly and realistically, no more can be done on that front. The Government have control of disease precautions, and this includes pasteurisation of milk.
Last edited:
Alec Swan
...
Now this is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I no longer keep cattle, but if I did, then rest assured, I wouldn't give the killing of a badger, a second thought.
Consider this, were there a national and a natural shortage of badgers, then there wouldn't be a problem. The badgers wouldn't put cattle at risk, so the hand of man wouldn't be turned against them.
There is no shortage, in fact the reverse of that's true. There has been a population explosion, and if the numbers are reduced to a level where they cease to pose a threat to themselves, and the nations cattle, then we, that's those of us who live cheek by jowl with wildlife, whilst we attempt to farm
, and maintain a balance with wildlife, whilst being lectured by those who live in an ideal world, but in reality talk theorised and idealistic nonsense, may be allowed to do what we've done since time immemorial, and that's to manage and care for our wildlife. It isn't ours to do with as we please. We have it in trust, and must account for it to those who come after, AND Leviathan, left to our own devices, we will maintain a balance, because we actually care for the badger just as you do. There's a difference though, and I'll leave it to you to work that one out for yourself.Rant over. It isn't my intention that I offend anyone, but if I have, then that's just tough luck. I'm sick to the back teeth of being lectured to by those who have neither right nor experience to rely upon.
Alec.
mon
Well-Known Member
Well said Alec why does the badger be protected whilst the cow has to die, most folk or nearly all, do not fully understand TB and certainly are not directly affected by the consequences. We are in a 48month test area, but most are in 24month test then extra tests for selling stock at farmers expense.
Tinseltoes
Well-Known Member
What about a vaccine???????
Kiribati_uk
Well-Known Member
Its not just badgers that spread TB the deer do aswell where i live the deer are FULL of Tb its horrible to see them. My view is the are TOO MANY badgers thats why they are diease ridden, i dont agree with badgerbaiting but they need culling humanely and badgers eat hedgehogs so i would rather see hedge hogs than badgers!!!!!!
AMH
Well-Known Member
Alec, I grew up in Hampshire. I agree that there does seem to be a lot of badgers these days - I never saw them in my childhood, but since I moved away, around 15 years ago, I regularly see them as 'road kill' when I go back to visit my parents.
Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, the entire British countryside is a managed environment, and has been since enclosures in the 18th century. That's why we have grants for hedgerows and set aside strips, etc.
I'm not sure I support an indiscriminate cull, but I'm not sure what the answer is otherwise. I believe that there are anough badgers in the UK now to remove them from the protected list, and I don't know as this would result in a killing spree by farmers.
I do, however, feel that there have been some very unfair and, frankly, stereotypical comments on this thread regarding farmers' attitudes towards their stock. They deal with life and death every day (where there's livestock, there's dead stock) but that's part and parcel of every day, to a certain extent. But to lose whole numbers to a disease which one is almost unable to protect oneself from must be horrific and a massive worry to every stock farmer come testing time.
Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, the entire British countryside is a managed environment, and has been since enclosures in the 18th century. That's why we have grants for hedgerows and set aside strips, etc.
I'm not sure I support an indiscriminate cull, but I'm not sure what the answer is otherwise. I believe that there are anough badgers in the UK now to remove them from the protected list, and I don't know as this would result in a killing spree by farmers.
I do, however, feel that there have been some very unfair and, frankly, stereotypical comments on this thread regarding farmers' attitudes towards their stock. They deal with life and death every day (where there's livestock, there's dead stock) but that's part and parcel of every day, to a certain extent. But to lose whole numbers to a disease which one is almost unable to protect oneself from must be horrific and a massive worry to every stock farmer come testing time.
lillith
Well-Known Member
I grew up in a rural farming community and saw both foot and mouth culls and TB culls, it is absolutely horrible. The farmers are heartbroken, their livelihoods are taken away and the animals are destroyed. I actually had TB as a teenager and both the disease and treatment are extremely unpleasant - I also stayed away from all farms (and therefore could not visit my friends or go for country walks with my family) for six months from diagnosis to the all clear.
I like badgers, I hold no hatred for them, I also dislike any bloodshed that is unnecessary. However if badgers are infecting cattle (and people) with TB then the population needs to be controlled.
I like badgers, I hold no hatred for them, I also dislike any bloodshed that is unnecessary. However if badgers are infecting cattle (and people) with TB then the population needs to be controlled.
EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
The badger is a mammal ,so I would expect it to respond to vaccine in the same way as dogs and cats.Therefore the timing of vaccine to protect the unborn cubs is to do it shortly before they fall pregnant or during pregnancy.This is what we (good) dog breeders do,vaccinate our bitches either just before mating,or about three weeks before whelping. Vaccines can be evolved as oral doses fairly easily..that is how Polio was got rid of,vaccine on a sugar lump.Now any badger cannot resist peanuts or peanut butter,most countrymen /farmers know whereabouts their local badger setts are..just issue the vaccine to applicants,all would be responsible for dealing with their own badger population.What could be easier than that? Defra seem to be so behind the times on vet medicine..for goodness sake they`ve only recently realised that the Rabies vaccine actually DOES work,now vaccinated dogs can travel freely..no more six months encarceration in a concrete cell.
Certainly in my own breeding kennel problems do crop up..Parvo and Herpes as examples,the idea of killing all contact dogs is laughable..ring vaccinate ..problem solved.
Now ,if you argue on the cost..how much to vaccinate the badger population as opposed to paying out compensation for all these reactors,as well as the stopping of the farmer concerned trading? Not rocket science !
Certainly in my own breeding kennel problems do crop up..Parvo and Herpes as examples,the idea of killing all contact dogs is laughable..ring vaccinate ..problem solved.
Now ,if you argue on the cost..how much to vaccinate the badger population as opposed to paying out compensation for all these reactors,as well as the stopping of the farmer concerned trading? Not rocket science !
Alec Swan
...
Broadly speaking, I'd go along with that.
If we accept the premiss that badgers have reached the stage of over population, then we are forced, as I see it, into accepting that those which would die from natural predation, and bear in mind that badgers have no natural enemy, are surviving, and being the weakest within their own structured environment, they are prone to ill health.
By reducing, not annihilating, the badger population, we will lessen the risk of cross infection, and there will be fewer badgers which are itinerant, in that they will roam from sett to sett, spreading disease, and we will once again have a balance. It wont happen, that we know, because those who love badgers, rather than understand them, have the ear of the vote hungry politician. The situation isn't exclusive to the question of badgers, it's an inclusive theme which runs through any discussion which is rural.
Is it a sad world? I'm not sure about that, but I do just wish that those who act for us, with authority, had the ability to think in a similar fashion!!
Alec.
happyhacking:)
Well-Known Member
i am beginning to question whether more should be being done to find a test which actually detects btb rather than an immune response to btb. From what i can work out from doing a bit of reading (and i stand to be corrected if im wrong) the test is a bit like the heath test that they used to use on people? So by culling all the reactors we are possibly doing more harm than good?
If a test were developed that picked up when an animal was actually infected not when an animal has been vaccinated against btb. that combined with an oral vaccine and cull for both badgers and deer over a period of time could get us somewhere?
If a test were developed that picked up when an animal was actually infected not when an animal has been vaccinated against btb. that combined with an oral vaccine and cull for both badgers and deer over a period of time could get us somewhere?