What's a "Blue and White Mare"?

[Meowy Catkin]

If you look at spots (as in appaloosas/knabstruppers etc...) there are two genes that work together LP and PATN. Looking at it very basically, LP causes spots and PATN says how much area of the horse will be spotted. This is why you can get non spotted appys, but they are useful to breed from as a horse that carries a 'big area' version of PATN but no LP, can be crossed with a homozygous LP (which aren't very spotty) to produce very spotty offspring.

With pinto genes, some give some white when the horse has one copy and lots of white when the horse has two copies. it depends what gene you are specifically talking about.

I have seen photos of maximum sabinos (all white) where their parents were both minimal sabinos, but that's pretty rare and sabino isn't fully understood yet.

 

[undergroundoli]

Cool, thanks for taking the time to explain it all. I hope you enjoy teaching as much as I enjoy learning.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No problem, it's nice when others find it interesting too Sorry to those who don't.

I hope that fewer people will call my flaxen chestnut 'palomino' in the future (he's not even a pale Pangare chestnut like some Haffy's are) ;p At least people don't call my grey 'strawberry roan' now, she's far too grey these days.

 

[undergroundoli]

Well you have Arabs, and they don't carry the cream gene that would dilute chestnut into palomino, even I know that. I cant really see the difference between some haffies' colour & palominos though. Can you look & tell, or do you just know that like Arabs Haffies' don't carry cream?

 

[doriangrey]

DG - looks seal brown to me.

Thanks She does look like a seal brown (especially in the top right hand pic), but what you can't see on the photos is that she does have black points. The tips of her ears are black even in Summer, her muzzle looks sort of greyish in summer but in winter her nostrils and lips are black. Her mane has some sun-bleached ends but mane and tail are black. She rather reminds me of this horse - Ramblers Renown rather than Seattle Slew on the same page.

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html

I think I'm still leaning towards bay for her, but of course without a test I don't know for sure

 

[Meowy Catkin]

DG - not all agouti tests distinguish between the different forms of agouti. Seattle Slew is a very dark Seal Brown. Some seal browns are paler, especially in their summer coats and it can be easier to tell what form of agouti they have during the winter. I would say that it's the pregnant photo that really says that she might actually be 'brown'. The dapples are separate (sooty) so don't get distracted by them.

UGO - you are right, both arabs and Haffy's don't have cream - so it's impossible for a purebred of either breed (or a haffy/arab cross) to be palomino. Haffy's have pangare like exmoors (although haffy's are chestnut based unlike exmoors). Palominos have a more consistent colour all over, where as a flaxen pangare will be paler on the nose and have paler bits seeping up from a paler undercarriage.

This one shows the pangare very clearly (not all are this strikingly marked, but it's a good one to get your eye in on).

Palomino

 

[Casey76]

My old lad Pinto (that was his name, not just his colouring lol), who was bay with both tobiano and sabino

 

[Tern]

All the 'Blue & White' horses i know are white and the 'blue' is not very visable its under a grey layer of fur so im guessing it's just different colour skin of something, i dont know.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

All the 'Blue & White' horses i know are white and the 'blue' is not very visable its under a grey layer of fur so im guessing it's just different colour skin of something, i dont know.

All horses have black skin apart from under white markings (even if the white marking is so big that it covers the whole horse) and double dilutes. So all coloureds/pintos have black skin under the base colour bits and pink skin under the white bits. Greys have black skin, again apart from under white markings.

 

[Tern]

What if the bay has white markings (which are caused by 'pinto' genes of course)? Does that count as three colours on the horse, or is it another arbitrary situation, like when does a the horse have enough white to count as a 'coloured' thing?

Anyhoo - would all of these count as tri-coloured in your opinion? If not, why not?

Colour - Bay Sabino

This to me is Minimal Bay Sabino if we are going to be fussy.

 

[Tern]

All horses have black skin apart from under white markings (even if the white marking is so big that it covers the whole horse) and double dilutes. So all coloureds/pintos have black skin under the base colour bits and pink skin under the white bits. Greys have black skin, again apart from under white markings.

Thanks for explaining! So a 'grey' with pink skin is not actually a grey?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks for explaining! So a 'grey' with pink skin is not actually a grey?

That's correct, but to confuse matters you can, for example, get double cream + grey, but they look no different to a double cream (eg a cremello or perlino) when looking at them so a DNA test is needed to identify them unless you know that one parent was homozygous grey.

PS - you can be fussy and differentiate between minimal, medium and maximum sabino if you like.

ETA - pinto was a good name for him C76!

 

[Tern]

ahhh okay.

 

[doriangrey]

DG - not all agouti tests distinguish between the different forms of agouti. Seattle Slew is a very dark Seal Brown. Some seal browns are paler, especially in their summer coats and it can be easier to tell what form of agouti they have during the winter. I would say that it's the pregnant photo that really says that she might actually be 'brown'. The dapples are separate (sooty) so don't get distracted by them.

UGO - you are right, both arabs and Haffy's don't have cream - so it's impossible for a purebred of either breed (or a haffy/arab cross) to be palomino. Haffy's have pangare like exmoors (although haffy's are chestnut based unlike exmoors). Palominos have a more consistent colour all over, where as a flaxen pangare will be paler on the nose and have paler bits seeping up from a paler undercarriage.

This one shows the pangare very clearly (not all are this strikingly marked, but it's a good one to get your eye in on).

Palomino

Never mind the colour, I'm impressed you could tell she was in foal!

 

[Casey76]

Faracat, when I went to see him I was expecting a "pinto" (coloured quarter horse type) not a fat coloured cob lol. It took a while, but he was the horse of my lifetime. I miss him every day. But he got me into looking at colour more carefully. This is his other side... which was a bit more interesting

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks for sharing, he's really cute in his winter woolies.

I have read that having coloured spots within the white areas, might indicate that a tobiano is homozygous.

 

[miss_c]

Faracat I'm wondering now... Would you say Genie has pangare?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

No, she doesn't seem to have the mealy muzzle that you get with pangare on a bay base. She does have sooty though (which adds black) and it is that that has given her those lovely dapples.

 

[miss_c]

No, she doesn't seem to have the mealy muzzle that you get with pangare on a bay base. She does have sooty though (which adds black) and it is that that has given her those lovely dapples.

Very interesting!!! I don't think I'll ever understand all these colour genetics, thank you!

 

[Tern]

Is my mare bay or red bay Faracat? Photo is not what she looks like now just imagine more red colour.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Bay, but if you want to differentiate between the different shades of bay then 'bright bay' is what I'd probably go for (given your description), but that's based on phenotype rather than genotype, so therefore subjective.

 

[Sootsme]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=1878&attachmentid=7780
What about mine, please FC? Winter coat looks black, but has brown glints in his summer coat and his forelock fades to brown round the edges, has a few dapples, very faint on his body but one lovely star shaped one on his back leg!

 

[Sootsme]

Sorry, can someone please remind me how to post a photo from my profile album, thanks

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I looked on your profile, but couldn't see any photos.

The best way I have found to put photos on the forum, is to upload them to photobucket (or similar) and post the IMG code in the forum reply box.

 

[Tern]

Bay, but if you want to differentiate between the different shades of bay then 'bright bay' is what I'd probably go for (given your description), but that's based on phenotype rather than genotype, so therefore subjective.

Thanks.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

That's a new one 'bluebald', I rather like that term.

 

[SecretAgentBilly]

If a horse has a creamy coloured coat with a pink muzzle but dark, almost black, eyes what colour would he be? He has pink skin around his eyes as well. I do have a picture but I don't own the horse so I'm reluctant to post it!

 

[Sootsme]

Hope this has worked FC

 

[Sootsme]

Argh!!!! Give in, I can't get the pic to load from my album. And not keen on joining photobucket. I have made my album public if you have time to have a look, FC thanks

 

[Regandal]

This is fascinating. Faracat, I take it my boy is a bay sabino? He has 2 white socks on his back legs.