What's peoples beef with Ceasar Millian?

When I explained my problem to these accredited trainers they didnt forsee a problem, now Im just your average dog owner and was way over my head so when people selling classes and are trained trainers you do tend to believe that they know what they are talking about.

I have 2 questions for Krylr are you a dog trainer and what experience do you have with guarding breeds.
 
CaveCanem said:
OK, you don't like the word dominance.

How about genetic predisposition to handler aggression, dog aggression - ingrained and NOT caused by fear or over-exciteability - aggression over resources, sensitivity to correction, hardness to correction, vocalisation as you say, shyness. They all exist.
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I think its called innate behaviour.:D
 
Dobiegirl said:
When I explained my problem to these accredited trainers they didnt forsee a problem, now Im just your average dog owner and was way over my head so when people selling classes and are trained trainers you do tend to believe that they know what they are talking about.

I have 2 questions for Krylr are you a dog trainer and what experience do you have with guarding breeds.
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And I've had window salesmen promise me they can beat any quote - they don't know every quote I've had or would have, but they have an agenda, to make money. I don't know these trainers you dealt with but maybe they wanted money, maybe they lack experience in very reactive dogs, maybe believed your dog would cope, maybe this, maybe that...but my point is there are many positive-based trainers who would go about things very differently so you cannot strike off positive training simply by the actions of those two classes. You need to judge trainers on their individual merit - like I said, there are many things I think CM does well but some of his methods I do not like at all and would therefore not use him or any other trainer that uses those methods. I wouldn't write off every dog trainer because of CM.

I've already said I'm not a dog trainer, and yes, I have grown up with GSDs and own a GSD and Rottweiler cross, so I have some experience.
 
CaveCanem said:
They all exist.
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I believe I've already said so myself too. They're all something I would take into account with a dog but they're not things that would make me believe that physical force was a better method to use. Certain traits might have be rethink my methods or put extra training in - an independant nature would have me doing exercises at home to increase that focus on me, for example, vocalisation would warrant some specific training that I could then apply in regards to their behaviour to other dogs.
 
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Of course like everything else qualifications can mean nothing, I happen to believe now that experience is far better. CM has been slagged off in the past for his lack of qualifications but in my opinion he is head and shoulders
above a lot of trainers who wouldnt take on Pitbulls and the like.

I have to say your post came over as very patronising to me, you probabley didnt mean it and I will give you the benefit of the doubt now but perhaps its something to bear in mind for the future.
 
Dobiegirl said:
Of course like everything else qualifications can mean nothing, I happen to believe now that experience is far better. CM has been slagged off in the past for his lack of qualifications but in my opinion he is head and shoulders
above a lot of trainers who wouldnt take on Pitbulls and the like.

I have to say your post came over as very patronising to me, you probabley didnt mean it and I will give you the benefit of the doubt now but perhaps its something to bear in mind for the future.
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And so does yours, so something for you to bear in mind too perhaps.
 
If money was the main motivation behind, say, Dobiegirl's trainer's actions, wouldn't they string it out for as long as possible, using a very slow process with slow and/or limited success rather than one or two sessions with quick/lasting results?

That's not to say CM does not have a few quid in the bank :p
 
krlyr said:
And so does yours, so something for you to bear in mind too perhaps.
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Your analogy of the window salesman was patronising to the extreme, it couldnt be read any other way. As I said Im just your average dog owner though given my age probabley dealt with more dogs than you and as an average dog owner went to well qualified recommended dog trainers. I explained my problems to them over the phone and was assurred it was something they had dealt with before.

My patronising to you was in response to you so in dog parlance you could say I was reactive to your reaction.
 
CaveCanem said:
If money was the main motivation behind, say, Dobiegirl's trainer's actions, wouldn't they string it out for as long as possible, using a very slow process with slow and/or limited success rather than one or two sessions with quick/lasting results?

That's not to say CM does not have a few quid in the bank :p
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Depends, do they want to make as much money as they possibly can, or do they want to make as much money as possible with minimal effort? Therefore, bunging as many dogs into a class as they can regardless of issues. Or, like I said, it may not be money-making.
 
I think you need to stretch your anology to people who don't have say 2 or 3 years to try and get a dangerous behaviour under control using some methods outlined, infact I have worked with people using these methods (who where advised to use) the methods outlined and it got them know where but frustrated, their moneys handed over and them left with instruction to follow such training (rarely given a demonstration) by the trainer themselves.
How much do you think people have to spend on trainers before they are living on beans, I have had people come to me who have spend into the thousands (I would say) they tried their damndest and a alot of trainers along the way and then one day if lucky enough met a trainer with common sense (realistic/experienced) in the approach to solving the behaviours, be it firm handling/negative/positive/reprimand and a mix of a few (probably the trainer) DG found in the end would be a good example.

Of course there are plenty of descent trainers out there, the difference with CM is he is willing to put his methods out there and take the critisism. There are plenty of trainers out there using hidden methods (methods they fear) may make an owner weep or turn in disgust (however happy) to have to dog handed back (fixed) someone showed me a good but shocking example of this only a few days ago (can't remember) the mans name, little fat fella, basically using (shock collars) with a rattle bottle;) then waltzing on out armed only with the rattle bottle (claiming to have trained the dog) atleast you can see up front what CM does.
We see a few other trainers but not dealing with the extreme cases CM does, infact we see them deal with the very basics (no doubt picked out from their list of) "take a look these are the problems, pick what you like and we will mkae it a show";) and make a fair bit of dosh from it.

I will answer your question CC, I would/have and still will cut of a dogs air supply to prevent it attacking me or another animal.
 
CAYLA said:
I

Of course there are plenty of descent trainers out there, the difference with CM is he is willing to put his methods out there and take the critisism. There are plenty of trainers out there using hidden methods (methods they fear) may make an owner weep or turn in disgust (however happy) to have to dog handed back (fixed) someone showed me a good but shocking example of this only a few days ago (can't remember) the mans name, little fat fella, basically using (shock collars) with a rattle bottle;) then waltzing on out armed only with the rattle bottle (claiming to have trained the dog) atleast you can see up front what CM does.
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hmmm... I am highly suspicious of the ‘shhhh’ noise he continually makes. It sounds very like a spray collar to me and there has to be a reason the dogs react to ‘shhh’ in the first place. Or have I missed something?


I still have my Jan Fennell book.. I have far more respect for her.
 
NeverSayNever said:
hmmm... I am highly suspicious of the ‘shhhh’ noise he continually makes. It sounds very like a spray collar to me and there has to be a reason the dogs react to ‘shhh’ in the first place. Or have I missed something?


I still have my Jan Fennell book.. I have far more respect for her.
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Lol its the dig NSN:D:p the little dig he gives in the side to "snap the dog out of focus" he couples with a "shhhh" vocal but becasue folk are not so bright (those using the sound alone);) they just say "shhhh" coupled with nothing else and belive it's the sound that works alone:D:D its not a spray but the hand touch coupled with "shhhh".

ETA I use "leave it" couple with a check if im working with a lead aggressive dog for instance, after a few checks, I then just say "leave it" my comparison.

Is JF the hyper older ginger woman? I watched a show with her and she made a huge boo boo with a stooge dog when it attacked the "dog with issues" but it may not have been her as can't remember her name, she was ginger (I think) talked really fast, used alot of hand movements and seemed hyperactive (or am I talking about someone else) possibly lol
 
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We use shhh-type noises and rolled tongues (brrrap?! :p) as a stimulation.

I do meet a guy with a pack of very rude dogs and he does the whole stopping and shushing and poking thing, I told him to keep walking a few weeks ago as he was just creating a stand-off and he was quite rude back to me so the next time we passed him and his dogs jumping all over the place I said to the dog, 'oh look, there's the Dog Whisperer again'.
 
CAYLA said:
Of course there are plenty of descent trainers out there, the difference with CM is he is willing to put his methods out there and take the critisism. There are plenty of trainers out there using hidden methods (methods they fear) may make an owner weep or turn in disgust (however happy) to have to dog handed back (fixed) someone showed me a good but shocking example of this only a few days ago (can't remember) the mans name, little fat fella, basically using (shock collars) with a rattle bottle;) then waltzing on out armed only with the rattle bottle (claiming to have trained the dog) atleast you can see up front what CM does.
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I wouldn't be so sure, there are plenty of people claiming CM uses shock collars off-air to prime the dog to react how they do on camera. Of course, they're just claims, but there was a video that was released of him using a stooge dog to wind up a reactive dog before filming, and there's still videos up on Youtube of him actually laughing at a dog that was pushed into reacting - what is funny about the high level of stress that the dog must have been going through? At the end of the day, CM's show is highly edited, but the amount of controversial reports from people involved in the show suggests to me that more goes on than we see. I think even one of his camera crew came forward to complain about some of CM's methods before, I can't find the article at the minute but will have a hunt. Interestingly, apparently his clients have to sign a non-disclosure type agreement to not go to the press or anything with any fallout that occurs after his training..speaks volumes to me (and again, goes against your "what you see is what you get" statement).


As for trainers not taking on the same cases CM does - I think you'll find many do, they just choose to do it for their love of dogs rather than to be in front of the camera. I'm on a dog forum with several behaviourists who have some dogs with pretty serious issues, dog aggression, human aggression and so on. Some of them have turned dozens of dogs around and successfully rehomed them, but they don't feel the need to do it in front of a camera. Positive-reinforcement probably makes more boring TV with these cases due to the time and patience required anyway - it'd be quite repetitive, there would be no "exciting" reaction scenes or standoffs between trainer and dog, and so on. CM and his team definately know what makes for eyecatching TV.
 
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What is wrong with dogs having to cope with stress? Humans have to cope with stress, horses have to cope with stress. Sometimes we can't avoid it and sometimes we have to work through it and sometimes we have to help our animals through it.

I would absolutely prefer that people would stop breeding from dogs that can't cope with stress or pressure but they are and we have to deal with the dogs that we have and the problems that they have.
 
krlyr said:
I'm on a dog forum with several behaviourists who have some dogs with pretty serious issues, dog aggression, human aggression and so on. Some of them have turned dozens of dogs around and successfully rehomed them, but they don't feel the need to do it in front of a camera.
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LOL Is that because they are too noble or is it because they haven't been asked ?

Unless a trainer is prepared to move in with a family and wait for the behaviour to occur, using a trigger to get the dog to display the undesired behaviour is necessary. Of course the trainer can take the dog away to train, but what use is that ? Its the owners that need training.
 
horserider said:
LOL Is that because they are too noble or is it because they haven't been asked ?

Unless a trainer is prepared to move in with a family and wait for the behaviour to occur, using a trigger to get the dog to display the undesired behaviour is necessary. Of course the trainer can take the dog away to train, but what use is that ? Its the owners that need training.
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Good point!
I do lots of training -usually when owners have given up or often when owners can't be bothered.
I need to find out what makes a dog tick and need to find out quickly.
Usually the only clue I get is an answer like this to the question "Have you been to dog training?" :_
"just local one in {place} he was very badly behaved lol x

Dog was handed in to welfare for being too boisterous & can't be left. Dog is a normal teenager who learnt how to walk on a lead in about five minutes once he realised he wouldn't get a piece of sausage if he misbehaved.
CM gets results for lots of dogs and is often a last resort. We don't get to hear how many other methods the people have tried.

Pinch collars can be a useful tool if used correctly as can chains. I hate headcollars & harnesses on dogs (without medical reasons)and if a dog turns up with one I know there will be problems.

My party piece is putting a rope slip on a dog that "won't walk on the lead" and holding it with one finger as I walk around and away and back to the owner. I teach lead use with a collar round the owners wrist -no point messing with the dog.
 
Haha S4Sugar and I guess you dont have any fancy letters after your name and you are working also to rehome that dog so no fancy fees for you either.

It just kills me what is being trained now by behaviourists, much like how kids are brought up without consequences and we all know how those turned out.

When I did my good citizen award with Darcy who was fear reactive to start with she sailed through it all and her sit stays were solid. One member who was a friend and had spent a lot of money with a one to one with this trainer couldnt get her dog to sit stay for the exam. Her dog was given 3 chances and at one point all the other dogs were asked to leave the hall, needless to say her dog passed the exam but it left a bitter taste with me as I felt it devalued Darcys award.
 
Spudlet said:
Kindly don't tar all behaviourists with that brush. I find your post offensive.
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I think you will find I speak from personal experience and read through this post and a lot of people have had the same experiences. Of course there are good ones as well as bad that goes without saying, your experience with your trainer you feel is a good one. Perhaps you would like to tell us how they would tackle some of the problems brought up on here including my very dog aggressive 40kg male Dobermann.
 
There does seem to be a split between those influenced by academia/research/web links written in nice language and those out working practically with dogs over many years.
I'd rather take advice from an experienced trainer who can see my own dog in front of me and observe it's behaviour and preferably have a knowledge of the genetics (I realise this is a luxury) than a book or a web link or someone who has written a book or something for the web, although of course those could influence my thinking.

While I don't mean to tar anyone with any brushes, some of the things I have heard being taught to potential trainers, is a little disturbing.

Goes back to my point, how do you ignore a dog chasing a cat under the wheels of a car. Sometimes with some dogs you have to use compulsion. IMO :)
 
I have considered responding to this thread many times, but it is clearly a wasted effort. Nor am I about to post on behalf of the people I'm talking about. However to call an entire, diverse profession into question is frankly silly.

However this thread has reminded me why I didn't bother coming here for support about Henry being unwell, when once it would have been my first port of call.
 
I think the majority of us use different methods, I dont have a preference for any particular trainer and I tend to pick and choose depending on an individual dog. Darcy was fear aggressive and clicker training worked well for her, with Fred he was trying to take your arm off anyway and a treat and clicker would never work for him . I have said many times I have lots of tools in my toolbox and only a fool would expect one size to fit all.

Spudlet Im sorry to hear Henry has been unwell and you know full well you would have everyones help with this. This is a forum with people who have different opinions but Im sure and I speak for myself here I can disagree with someone on one thing but agree on another. You can certainly count on my help if I can towards Henry.
 
Sorry to hear about Henry, Spudlet, hope he is on the mend soon...I know you are probably feeling crappy about that, but it's just a debate with differing opinions - and you know how important a thick skin is in this game...you can even poke me with a pointy stick if you like x
 
CaveCanem said:
While I don't mean to tar anyone with any brushes, some of the things I have heard being taught to potential trainers, is a little disturbing.
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The problem is this is just your opinion. Others may not find the methods disturbing at all, may even have found them to work. Horses for courses. Not every method will work with every dog.
 
He has possible seasonal canine illness. I'm bricking it that I might lose him although he's still perky at the moment, just hoping he doesn't go downhill as they can drop rapidly with this thing, and that he has just eaten something horrid. So sorry if I'm snappy.

As for norty Dobe - ok, if he came to our class, yes he would have to leave initially, we can't have very aggressive dogs in a confined space with others. If the owner of such a dog was honest about his issues, I doubt he'd have come to class in the first place, as the head trainer won't lie about what we can deal with. What we do have is a behaviourist who is the boss's business partner (yep, eek a behaviourist), with proper stooge dogs - which are also working gundogs, so she is not a fluffy 'ignore all the bad' lady - like all of us, she believes that dogs need boundaries. She can do 1-2-1 or runs 'growly' classes for when they are ready. I have seen her achieve some impressive things, and not all involving a big bag of sweeties although reward comes into it as much as consequences. As to exactly what she'd do - I don't know, it would depend on the circumstances.

Most of our 'normal' training is done through play and making it fun for the dogs - our goal is for all our dogs to walk well in a flat collar, we don't have check chains in class, and slip-leads are reserved for gundog clients only as we work on both the left and right, so a slip lead would be upside down half the time. Some of our teenage dogs go through a headcollar phase but the majority come out the other side - depending ultimately on the client and how much time they can put in. I can get most of our dogs heeling in a flat collar but that does not mean everyone can, everyone is different in the time they can put in. We are not training dogs though - we are training the clients, this is very different to what many people expect of a trainer. I will take clients' dogs to demonstrate for them, but the training is down to them.
 
Lexie, horses for courses, I do agree with - but that is not what is being taught, more's the pity - it's this way, or no way and the dog cannot be helped if it isn't that way. That's only one course though.

ETA - sorry to hear about that Spud, hope it is just Henry eating something manky x
 
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