What's peoples beef with Ceasar Millian?

CaveCanem said:
Lexie, horses for courses, I do agree with - but that is not what is being taught, more's the pity - it's this way, or no way and the dog cannot be helped. That's only one course though.
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Tell me about it..... I had my fair share of this does not work- do not come back. I very much doubt your training lot run round doing fluffy bunnie methodology tho! So they also only have the one way!!
 
We have several different trainers using several different methods, from the fluffy bunny to the non-fluffy - horses for courses, as you say. Most of the dogs are clicker trained, including my own, but ultimately he has had too many choices given to him and we are having to re-start a few things - heelwork with food and a ball, doesn't get much fluffier than that, but just making him work a bit harder and concentrate a bit more. With something like tracking, for example there can be no negativity or correction or compulsion at all. Most of what we do is trained through play/prey. It has to be fun.
 
Spudlet I can understand your worry and am happy to accept your apology and completely understand. I know Henry is an old dog and that makes it more difficult with his age, what he does have on his side is he is fit and previously healthy and whilst I cannot offer any advice on his disease Im sure you have a very good vet doing all the right things. Fingers crossed his current treatment works and he is returned to full health.

As regards my naughty Dobe I didnt hold back on telling them exactly how it was on the phone as I realised it would have been pointless. The fact is they reassured me they had experience of this problem but when they saw him it was a different story. As regards stooge dogs it wouldnt have worked with them if they didnt bark as he just went into major protection mode. If you or anyone else had walked around that hall with them and all the dogs barked he wouldnt have reacted at all. My ex police dog handler told me I had an incredible bond with this dog and that was not an eupherism for anything else as he was very straight talking and told it like it was.

Im not going to go any further with this as I did lose him and it still kills me to talk about him but my ex police handler trainer did turn him around and helped turn him into the most amazing trustworthy obedient dog I ever had.
 
CaveCanem said:
What is wrong with dogs having to cope with stress? Humans have to cope with stress, horses have to cope with stress. Sometimes we can't avoid it and sometimes we have to work through it and sometimes we have to help our animals through it.
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^^^This!! I have found this thread a fascinating read, and have so far not replied because I am just a two pet dog owner with relatively little experience, so not really qualified to judge CM or his methods. However, common sense to me suggests that a trainer trying to resolve a problem will have to witness the problem in action, and will therefore inevitably have to push the dog to a point where it is demonstrating it. So what if this involves putting the dog under some temporary pressure :confused:

Going off on a tangent for a bit...

To my simple mind installing discipline (the difference between right and wrong behaviour) in a dog isn't so very far removed from doing the same with a child :o And supernanny Jo Frost has marvellous results with her techniques, which all involve the child demonstrating the bad behaviour and then being punished via the naughty step or similar. They key is that the parent must clearly explain why the punishment is being imposed.

I can't see any problem with punishing bad behaviour in a dog, as long as it is crystal clear to the dog what that punishment is for. Similarly, I think it is essential that all good behaviour is fully and enthusiastically praised.

And I will be adopting the same approach to the rearing of my first child, due in just over a week!! :D

ETS: Sorry to hear about your poorly dog Spudlet - I hope you get good news soon.
 
Broodle said:
^^^This!! I have found this thread a fascinating read, and have so far not replied because I am just a two pet dog owner with relatively little experience, so not really qualified to judge CM or his methods. However, common sense to me suggests that a trainer trying to resolve a problem will have to witness the problem in action, and will therefore inevitably have to push the dog to a point where it is demonstrating it. So what if this involves putting the dog under some temporary pressure :confused:

Going off on a tangent for a bit...

To my simple mind installing discipline (the difference between right and wrong behaviour) in a dog isn't so very far removed from doing the same with a child :o And supernanny Jo Frost has marvellous results with her techniques, which all involve the child demonstrating the bad behaviour and then being punished via the naughty step or similar. They key is that the parent must clearly explain why the punishment is being imposed.

I can't see any problem with punishing bad behaviour in a dog, as long as it is crystal clear to the dog what that punishment is for. Similarly, I think it is essential that all good behaviour is fully and enthusiastically praised.

And I will be adopting the same approach to the rearing of my first child, due in just over a week!! :D

ETS: Sorry to hear about your poorly dog Spudlet - I hope you get good news soon.
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Very sensible post and the type I expect from a pet dog owner looking in on a situation and a realistic one at that.

Sorry to to hear about Henry, but suprised you mention not wanting to come here due to debates (this debate) has remained sensible imo, no spats, name calling, arguments (full on scraps):D obs people get a little more frustrated when a deabte does not go their way.
I get frustrated at some points of view, but its their/other point of view at the end of the day.!

Kylr (sorry) if thats not the right letters, CM does indeed (has indeed) used E collars and explained he was using them (never hid the fact) not like the shameful little fat fella in DG's link pretending he walked behind a car and turned up out the other side with a trained dog:rolleyes::D or his jingle bells that cure all behaviours;):D
I have no issue with E collars (dont use them myself) and deal with way more than a dozen dogs! and have a similar set up re (the many dogs) he has in his yard/compound/property and use for his flodding methods with the already rehabed dogs of all shapes, breeds and sizes and it works fantastic, aslong as you are confident in your handling. (Im talking hundreds of dogs here, not a handful) and this part really interests me as its a method I use, aswell as his exercise and stimulation and his anology of treating dogs like babies:rolleyes: ( I worked with and trained dogs long before the CM shows began and have taken nothing new from him but I still watch with interest) I dont agree with all the methods he uses but also dot understand all the flack he gets either.
I have limited time to deal with dogs (we are a rescue) I cant spend 6 months a time on a dog and unlike an owner with 1 or 2 pet dogs who can have all the time in the world to spend on a behaviour (you will still find they want a cure quick however);)
People dont want dogs to die yet dont want them to be trained or handled in a firm manner nor do they want the training to string out (they want a cure yesterday!), so whats it to be?? (and yes indeed firmness is needed and some amount of stress as CC suggests is indeed needed) believe me!
Its gets back tot he same old, methods, vary them use them all to your advantage, but (be realistic)

Re the trainers, I was talking more of the few we have on TV already (or those with strong views against CM with a passion who would like to come show us their methods!, the few we have....Cesar and a few that deal in very basic behaviour.
I am more than confident to work with dogs (involve a camera) and I would hide:o:D I dont use any aids, bar firm handling (should I need it) this would be in the form of a check! and my vocals and my own dogs. Also the owners would hear a few more rude (home truths from me) so I would not make good tv for that reason:p and my ugly face and lack of super model body and leather whip lash outfits:p
 
horserider said:
LOL Is that because they are too noble or is it because they haven't been asked ?

Unless a trainer is prepared to move in with a family and wait for the behaviour to occur, using a trigger to get the dog to display the undesired behaviour is necessary. Of course the trainer can take the dog away to train, but what use is that ? Its the owners that need training.
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^^ good post, and the stress involved dealing with so many dogs each and every day (including rescue) of which he seems to do equally if not more than dealing with owners and dogs, I can tell you it's life consuming and very very stressfull and emotionally draining. He has divorced through this to has he not? no doubt to the dogs consuming his life.
 
Some good posts on here, I think people do need to realise that different dogs need different methods. If you have a dog that responds to all positive reinforcement, great, but some dogs need to have things put across to them rather more strongly and there is no doubt in my mind that some of the trainers nowadays just can't deal with this sort of thing.
That clip of the little fat man is classic, it is so obviously the dog has been zapped with an e collar. I can imagine people watching that clip and frantically searching for a rattle tin that plays Barbie Girl :p
Spudlet, I hope Henry has picked up now, the fact that you are aware that it might be seasonal canine illness means that you can be on the case fast, so I am sure he will be fine. Keep us updated.
 
Can I just point out that 26 UK charities including the RSPCA and DogsTrust are calling for Cesar's methods to be banned in the UK. He freely admits to using electric shock collars and these are now illegal in Wales with calls to have them banned elsewhere in the UK.

This isn't a bunch of extremist animal rights activists. His opponents are professional, qualified dog trainers and organisations that support said individuals.

More information here: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/press-statement.php

Craig
 
Yep, the arguments have been put forward many times and then the same people strop off or leave the thread if you don't agree with them. I'm still of the 'horses for courses' school of thought.
And I am sorry but the words 'electric' and 'collar' in the same sentence don't make everyone fall off their chairs. I've not used one personally but it is a tool that can be abused in the same way as any other tool (or by any other tool :p).
At least he admits to using them, there are plenty of people who call themselves positive trainers who use slightly less positive methods 'behind the shed'.
You're on a horse forum. People on here often put metal things in their horses mouths, including chifneys and pelhams, fence them with electrics, hit them with sticks/whips, spur them with metal and nail metal shoes onto their feet but nobody bats an eyelid.

Despite all the negative publicity, people still go to him, pay him money, buy his books. So his methods obviously work for some people.
 
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Well done Alan Titchmarsh for a superb interview. Alan did his research. 15 charities including the RSPCA, Dogs Trust & APBC have issued a joint Press Release warning of the dangers of Cesar Millans training methods. It's about time people took notice of professional opinion and not to a self-styled guru making millions out of exploitation.
 
Yep, but it is information that has been out there before, people can take it or leave it - that's now three first-time posters on Cesar Millan subjects today, welcome to HHO :)


I am sure those expressing a 'professional opinion' are getting paid too :)
 
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Busted! ;)

Yeah this is a slightly hot topic at the moment with the Alan Titchmarsh interview and CM pushing promotion for his 2013 UK tour. Someone over in Facebook-world mentioned that H&H mag had run a CM advert so that's probably counting for the extra interest. I've urged people to keep it civil. Nothing to be gained from being offensive, even though we're getting trolled all over the place from a pretty aggressive CM fan base.

Anyway, just spreading the word. I'm a keen shooter myself, targets only, maybe not your average AR nut. :)

Craig
 
Yep first time posters and whats the betting we dont see them again after this thread:D

Everyone seems to be jumping on lets get CM band wagon, as Ive said before he is not the second coming or the devil incarnate.

Every dog is different and what works for one dosnt always work with another. Prong collars are no different to curb chains they do not come into force unless needed yet people are making out they are the most barbaric tool known to man. A little less hysteria and more logic is needed, go and google, do your research.Its the same with electric collars people seem to think they are linked to the mains and are on all the time:eek: if using one of these stops your dog from worrying sheep isnt it better than a bullet, not to mention the stress and injury casued to the poor sheep.
 
Now DG, be nice to the newbies, Craig has already replied twice :D

Welcome to the madhouse, this is one of the more reasoned, well-debated, interesting threads on the subject and I've taken on board a lot from it!
 
Haha CC I did say this thread.:D

Ive got to smile, Im not his biggest fan and dont agree with all his methods, the alpha roll for example I never got my head around that one.:rolleyes:

But with some of the dogs he has to deal with that other trainers have given up on he has been their last resort. When people start coming on here and saying well actually if he had done this that and this they will have my attention.:)
 
There is never any excuse or reason to use punishment, aversives, prong, shock, or anything else when working with dogs. Dogs are not out to be aggressive and cause harm just for the sheer hell of it. Aggression problems are due to fear and using punishment etc isn't going to help that dog feel better at all. Bullying and intimidating a dog until it shuts down in fear isn't helping the dog. You need to find out what the dog is fearful of and work with the dog in a positive way to help it deal with and cope with the fear until it can get over its problem. Dogs look to their owners for help and guidance and using punishment methods only teaches the dog that its owner is unpredictable and not a safe person to be around. Zookeepers can train lions, tigers, rhino, hyena etc using clickers and positive training and these animals are way more dangerous than any pet dog. The domestic dog is the most easily trained animal on the planet so one must question themselves if they have to rely on force and intimidation to just force the dog to shut down rather than actually train the dog. Cesar Millan hasn't a clue what he's doing, all he's interested in is fame and fortune. Just because he played with dogs on his families farm does not make him qualified to work with dogs in a professional capacity. I watch Grey's Amatomy but that doesn't mean I can go and perform brain surgery.
 
Copied with permission from the friend of a friend. A bit long but makes for interesting reading.

Drayton Michaels:
Has anyone on this thread been in the entertainment industry for real? If you have then you’ll understand if not then well maybe you won’t. Leah is on to something with the reinforcement for his behaviour. Also one must take into account that people own him, and they are the ones with the power.

This is a whole other beast with Milan. If he was just another pain trainer with a TV show he would have had one season and been long gone. Problem is he has made powerful friends in Hollywood and he makes money for them. At 100 million a year he is worth something.

He is a tool for those that own him, and they do, period. They are simply manipulating his natural inability to actually “think”, so it’s not difficult for him to basically “be himself” while the money rolls in, the bosses do very little and make a great profit. At 100 million a year a 10 – 15% cut of that is quite a motivator for making sure he stays on the air.

He obviously has the means and the access to seek out “help” if that were his aim. His appalling attempt to overthrow American Humans and try to put on a symposium was shut down faster than a liquor store near a high school. Why? Because finally people said “no” and he had no real intentions of doing a symposium, he thought he could “buy” legitimacy, and it failed. If he had why not simply do it and invite everyone? Because they would not be part of it that is why.

His lame “book” that was an appeasement gesture to the legit crowd is a farce. It had no relevance to train any dogs other than what was already known about the people he chose to partake. This did nothing except make him money and give the “fans” a way to say “see he tries to bridge the gap”, BS.

He is not a teen in trouble, he is a grown man and grown men can make choices based on feedback from the world at large, their internal conditioning via culture etc…which he has had, in abundance. His verbal behaviour, his intellectual behaviour and his actual behaviour interacting with dogs have all been well documented.
Look at it objectively as a “case history” instead of a fragmented story that revolves around the moment we all pay attention again.

He chooses to keep making these choices. He told Bill O’reilly back in 08 I think…that all the bites he has endured are “Mistakes” and that he has made “100’s of mistakes”.
As Einstein said doing the same thing and getting the same poor results is insanity, unless the result are what was intended, most people usually learn from mistakes when it involves being injured and putting a dog’s life at risk of being euthanized.

But for him it is “Part of the job”. Not for the legitimate among us it is not.

Despite contracts and obligations he could have made many different behavioural choices along the way, remember behaviour has a pathology. His public behaviour, his verbal behaviour and his intellectual behaviour have been very well documented. So far the results show a lack of concern or empathy and little if any intellect. The score card is in is it not? Cesar is not smart, not at all. A dolt in fact, a rube as it were.

Funny that some think he looked “stressed” and admittedly at times he did, but he also looked smug and condescending. He also evaded the questions and played “politician”. There are warning on cigarettes, indeed there are but there is also a warning on the show he hosts, because it is dangerous to do what he does. He is too stupid to even realize his correlation to smoking is a bad one to make for what HE does.

This is the problem in it’s most meta analysis, his show is not about helping dogs, or helping people, it is about HIM. That is the biggest red flag of all.

When he was asked to provide some sort of reasonable explanation as to why he “chooses violence” with dogs when he does not have to? He waffled as they all do when asked….It is because he has no reason other than “that is what I know”, and he cannot even say that. It is called having delusions and cognitive dissonances, sociopathic pathologies.

He wanted to be famous and now he is. That was his goal. Hope it is all he expected. It will not last, and in fact his “bosses” may be setting him up to fail, ever consider that?

When we stop sitting around on our collective duffs and speak up LOUDLY and with out political correctness softening the truth, and stand up against people that abuse dogs in the name of “TRAINING” it will stop. Until then it will continue. Consumers are by and large “buying” it because it has a big spot light> I have met maybe 1 or 2 people that are actually resonating and want to do these abusive things to dogs.

When you watch that video of him and the dog Holly there are an infinite number of possibilities that could have been implemented to prevent her stress and the resulting bite to his hand.

When you look at his behaviour in that video, its classic bully behaviour, even after the dog bit him he stood over the dog continuing her stress. People that are embroiled in some sort of dog related stress incident do not do this nor would they want to. They feel bad, they want the dog to feel better, they tend to their wounds. He stood their like a jail warden, blaming a dog for resource guarding her food, a natural instinct that was most likely originally caused by humans and a lack of their understanding.

This guy is an abuser of dogs’ period.

He cannot sue anyone nor can his legal thugs. Unless you walk uo to him and hit him they cannot repeat cannot sue you, It is laughable.

The reason why he continues unabated is because he and his thugs have made the very people that could put an end to it and the people that signed away their TV rights, as well as the upper echelons of dog-dom, he has made them all cow tow by written contracts or threats of legal action, which he cannot take on anyone. But like all bullies he and his gang have scared some people into inaction.
Maybe when those people that can step up and do something grow a pair this abuser will be brought down. Until then be ready for cases where dog owners are being lulled into using violence to “train” by a TV pitchman and his ignorant ways.

I recently have had a number of inquires where people are verbatim repeating the actions of this abuser.

In one scenario a 70 year old couple was being bitten in the crotch on the advice of “behaviorists” that put in writing in a training “plan”, that they should “push their bodies into the dog like a wave crashing, when they want to reclaim their space”.

I tried this in the most gentle of ways with dogs that have zero issue with me and indeed the crotch area is pretty much dead center to a dog’s mouth depending on height of person and dog.

Or how about the latest in a long line of trainers shocking dogs and espousing some leadership crap to people.

If his show or videos will not convince you that he is a major problem and he should be allowed no leeway at all no matter what at this stage, as it is way past the point of him claiming “ignorance. Less it be that he is too ignorant to learn, which is a real possibility, then look through the emails and behaviour histories for correlations to his “impact” on dog training culture. I am sure you won’t have to look hard, as they are all pervasive.

Anyone that does not take behaviour cases should not comment. Seriously, if you do not sit with people and re work the damage, you have no idea what damage has been caused by this charlatan.

If you still have any sympathy for him, you get the pious award of the year.

I say animal abuse charges are in order.
 
In my opinion, Cesar has got a deep understanding of dog psychology and he can never be labelled as being cruel to them. He's the one trainer that is capable of rehabilitating dogs with issues in order to create a well balanced, happy pack. Humans are supposedly the intelligent species, but it seems as if dogs are able to understand him better than some humans!
 
That is a very interesting article Kateandbasher and puts across well what a lot of people who are against CM's methods know and feel. The Cesar Millan brand makes a massive amount of money as it is, so he is not going to change his methods. The people behind him are very litigous and will threaten to sue anyone who puplically speaks out against him.

Positive, reward based training is not permissive ! It is about building the trust between you and your dog, giving the dog the ability to learn the correct behaviour without fear of being abused. Those of us using this training do not force feed our dogs with treats, it is about rewarding the behaviour that you want and redirecting the behaviour that you don't, so the dog understands what you want and will offer that behaviour first. How often have you seen CM punish a dog for doing something wrong, but not then reward the dog for doing what he did want it to do, how is the dog to learn what you want if you don't let it know ?

My other big beef with him is he never asks if the dog has been checked by a vet prior to starting his training or what food the people feed it ? Dogs in pain will be very defensive and my own reactive dog was found to be hypothyroid, a few days on thyroxine made a massive difference to his behaviour. You can pretty much guarantee that the majority of USA dogs he see's are fed on a kibble full of additives. People giving advice on this forum are very quick to say don't feed Bakers etc, why doesn't he ?

My dogs have rules and boundaries, I don't hug trees or fluffy bunnies, but I chose to look into dog behaviour a bit more because of the dogs I have and their issues. 10 years ago I would probably have been one of those horrified at people not liking CM. You only have to read one article on dog body language to see what he says is happening is wrong, watch his programmes with the sound off and watch the dog, not his white teeth !

Alan Titchmarsh may only be a gardener turned TV presenter, but he is a dog lover and chose to read and watch some of the articles sent to him prior to CM's appearance and was obviously horrified at what he saw.
 
I find that those who make such derisory comments about CM, seem to expand their claims, and out of all proportion. "Big it up" seems to be the order of the day, almost as if their claim to experience is as limited as their abilities, and that given some of the subjects which CM has dealt with, I would be interested to watch the self proclaimed, and see just how well they get on.

I've no doubt that Titchmarsh is a dog lover, but loving dogs isn't the criteria by which abilities should be assessed, and my honest view is that he made a fool of himself. Perhaps, if instead of attacking CM as he did, his opinions would have been more valid were he to demonstrate his abilities with those dogs which either through breeding, or treatment have become, or are as difficult as they appear to be.

In-fact for all those who are more experienced or knowledgable than Milan, show us how good you are, put up a vid of how you enter a room of a house with a bag of treats, or a clicker. Demonstrate your abilities, and I will most certainly bow with respect.

Alec.
 
I agree with Alec, I will respect any method of training that works, but so far I have never seen anyone using only positive training sort out a really difficult dog. The puppy class I took Freya to is run by a trainer I don't respect, but it was the only class available in my area when Freya needed a socialisation class. There was a dobe pup there who was lovely but very mouthy with other dogs, and the trainers solution was to put her on a harness to stop her flying at other dogs (which of course didn't work) but the the trainer does not allow anyone to use even a half check collar. When the pup sat at the side of the room waiting her turn, barking at the other dogs, the trainer gave her a chew stick. Of course this did shut her up, and every week the same behaviour happened, dog barked, dog was given a chew, dog was quiet. Training - I don't think so!
 
KatandBasher said:
There is never any excuse or reason to use punishment, aversives, prong, shock, or anything else when working with dogs. Dogs are not out to be aggressive and cause harm just for the sheer hell of it. Aggression problems are due to fear and using punishment etc isn't going to help that dog feel better at all. Bullying and intimidating a dog until it shuts down in fear isn't helping the dog. You need to find out what the dog is fearful of and work with the dog in a positive way to help it deal with and cope with the fear until it can get over its problem. Dogs look to their owners for help and guidance and using punishment methods only teaches the dog that its owner is unpredictable and not a safe person to be around. Zookeepers can train lions, tigers, rhino, hyena etc using clickers and positive training and these animals are way more dangerous than any pet dog. The domestic dog is the most easily trained animal on the planet so one must question themselves if they have to rely on force and intimidation to just force the dog to shut down rather than actually train the dog. Cesar Millan hasn't a clue what he's doing, all he's interested in is fame and fortune. Just because he played with dogs on his families farm does not make him qualified to work with dogs in a professional capacity. I watch Grey's Amatomy but that doesn't mean I can go and perform brain surgery.
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Completly agree with this. CM has no idea about dogs body language, what he calls calm submissive behaviour is in fact the dog shutting down. People on here call the parrellis for everything and yet CM is doing much the same thing with dogs. Very worrying.
 
It's curious that so much of the criticising on CM is focussed on his dealings with aggressive dogs. I've seen him deal with shy and frightened dogs who were scared of just about everything and he showed incredible gentleness and understanding in dealing with them. When he's used E collars he has demonstrated them to the owners by getting them to hold it to reassure them. I've also seen him rehabilitate dogs who would have been euthanised if their behaviour could not be curbed.( nb..when I say "have seen" I mean on his tv programs) How does any of this make him a bad man?
Prong collars? As others have commented in this thread, can you condone using harsh bits and gadgets on horses but using gadget with the same principle on a dog, pressure and release, is wrong?
 
itsmylife said:
....... what he calls calm submissive behaviour is in fact the dog shutting down. .......
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....... and the dog, "Shutting down", on occasions is exactly what's needed. There are those dogs, and CM often seems to have them before him, which need to be pushed back into their submissive, compliant and obedient role, before they can be slowly lifted or allowed to reach an acceptable plain.

It's all to do with a balanced relationship, and if you're unable to accept that, then we wont make any progress. As in another thread;

"Don't tell me how clever you are, show me, and if you can take on the difficult, and on occasions the dangerous, and turn around those dogs which are unacceptable, and you can do it with rewards and lots of love and kisses, then I'm there to learn. I mean it, show me how it's done".

Alec.
 
I said exactly the same Alec a page or so back:D.

I can speak from first hand experience having had a very aggressive 40kg adult Dobermann, I wonder how many people on here denigrating CM have seen a truly aggressive dog. My dog wanted to kill other dogs and when you have a dog on the end of the lead lunging all teeth and frothing at the mouth you know indeed its not for the faint hearted.

He came to me as a private rescue having been told he didnt like other dogs which was the under statement of the year. Now I tried the accredited trainers and was kicked out of class, was not offered 1 to 1 just told to go and not come back . I knew this dog wasnt bad he mixed well with friends dogs of both sexes and lived with my other male Dobe in harmony. I was lucky enough to find an ex police dog trainer familar with Dobes who helped turn my dog around.
 
vieshot said:
What is it about his training people don't agree with? Someone commented on a post of a Facebook forum stating 'an owner that isn't a fan of CM is the best start any dog can have'

I was quite taken aback. I quite like Ceasar and rate him in extreme cases. Don't think that makes me a bad dog owner :-/

So what is it about Ceasar people don't like?
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Some fascinating posts on here, but for what they are worth, here are my thoughts.

An early poster mentioned that most of us "civilian" dog owners have easy breeds, with relatively easy problems.

For a situation like that, prong collars etc, etc., are clearly overkill and the " nice, easy dog" owners recoil in horror.

I don't know how effective, all training methods are, because for my easy mutt, treats and a clicker have been sufficient.

I am however quite happy to accept that for more serious problems, stronger methods may be necessary.
 
It's the same with horses. People are quick to say their horse is "crazy" or "tried to kill" them but it's in fact very rare to come across such situations and, if you've been in one, you recognise the difference immediately.

I have no real thoughts on CM, other than to think he has some interesting information and experience to contribute, but I do know he works with dogs I'd run a mile from so really, I have no experience to judge!

Out of curiosity (if anyone is still reading this thread :)) if "positive only" training is the ideal, why do animals not train each other that way? (I have a working knowledge of positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement vs punishment.) it is because they are lack the ability to figure out the better way? I am genuinely curious to know people's thoughts.
 
So the reasonable call is to use only positive reinforcement?

I'm not trying to be dense. My experience is properly socialised animals know quite a bit about their own kind, whether or not we recognise that as important. If dogs "train" each other using both positive and negative reinforcement, which they clearly do, why is that then dismissed in favour of "positive only" training and why is someone like CM, who is clearly in the middle ground, automatically wrong?
 
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