When did an 80/90 'eventer' become special?

[ycbm]

I am completely bemused by posts I am reading. When I started to ride, a long, long time ago now, the lowest level of show jumping and cross country at local level was novice at two foot nine, 80cm approx.

Any and every ordinary all rounder horse at that time was capable of eventing at 90 cm.

When, in the meantime, did it come to be considered in any way unusual for a horse to be able to do a prelim dressage and jump two foot nine?

I'm seeing advice on another thread that a buyer needs to up their budget to £10,000 !!!

 

[Antw23uk]

Glad I'm not the only one who finds this amusing I'n theory I have at least 20k both sitting muddy and bored in a field at home!

 

[AFB]

I am completely bemused by posts I am reading. When I started to ride, a long, long time ago now, the lowest level of show jumping and cross country at local level was novice at two foot nine, 80cm approx.

Any and every ordinary all rounder horse at that time was capable of eventing at 90 cm.

When, in the meantime, did it come to be considered in any way unusual for a horse to be able to do a prelim dressage and jump two foot nine?

I'm seeing advice on another thread that a buyer needs to up their budget to £10,000 !!!

I thought that was a crazy budget for an average horse too. I spent £1200 and got that.

Basing it on the 'normal liveries' that I know, a lot of people keep horses as pets that they potter about on and so jumping 90cm to the owner is a totally daunting prospect. If the owner won't do it the horse rarely gets a chance to show it's ability and the assumption is that it 'can't'. Stick a decent rider on anything with a reasonable fitness level and most should be capable IMO.

 

[ester]

Since Badminton grass roots started

 

[milliepops]

lol, I think you risk a bit of upset here as there are plenty of people for whom that is aspirational...

but yes I do agree in principle - I was one of the first "generation" to get to do 90s when they were called Intro, and at that time all the Proper Eventers sneered at us, saying that when they were starting out you had to go straight into Novice and plenty of people did - that was normal!

Maybe it's because more people can buy more quality horses (which have the potential to be quite a handful) and then having a *safe* quality horse adds a premium. Rather than just buying whatever mongrel dobbin was available, which was the done thing when I was a kid Plus the competitive opportunities at the lower levels are becoming more interesting with nice championships etc so it's less of a stepping stone and more of an end in itself?

 

[milliepops]

Since Badminton grass roots started

cross posted with you ester but yup, that's what I was thinking of. Big gatcombe is totally out of reach by comparison! Millie and I scrambled round a novice regional final just on the off chance (!) but the 1.20 SJ was not our finest moment

 

[bollybop]

Because to Win at that level, you still need a hood horse... not any of dibbin

 

[mle22]

We have a little mare who would take anyone round 80/90 all day long. She gets very good dressage marks and is a clean jumper too. She also wins a lot in WH. If she was ever for sale that would be the kind of money we’d want for her. Very well worth it if you want to have fun and be competitive at that level

 

[only_me]

Totally agree - I’d expect any horse to be able to jump 90cm to be honest and an intro to be easy enough! And any horse can do a novice dressage test tbh.


Interestingly was having a simlar convo with another rider & they think it’s because rider ability has gotten worse and having less lessons to improve their position/ability so expect the horse to be doing more!

Mines worth a fortune if i was selling him to grassroots novice riders - you don’t actually have to do anything for intro even PN level. Jump off any stride at any angle, responsive to leg & sit at whatever pace you set and will do a good PN test till the cows come home
His major selling point would be you can not ride him
For 2 months and when you get back on he’s as well behaved as ever lolz

 

[Orangehorse]

In my eventing days it was Novice, Intermediate and Advanced and the only practice prior to that was local hunter trials, not forgetting hunting.

Of course our dressage wasn't up to much, but horse could jump and that really all that was required back then. Mind, I remember pulling into one event and the show jumping course was the biggest I had ever seen, which was 3' 9" I think. I quailed, but luckily horse didn't.

Also, if your read any of the old Jill Gymkhana books, etc. the standards in those days 50/60s were pretty high as OP said.

 

[ycbm]

lol, I think you risk a bit of upset here as there are plenty of people for whom that is aspirational... ?

Post is strictly related to the horse, not the rider. At one time it will have been aspirational for every single one of us, no matter what height we actually ended up doing.

In fact I've come full circle from my avatar and it would now be aspirational again for me to get 90cm off the floor

 

[ester]

onlyme yes and for that reason uncomplicated horses that will week in week out take someone round for a nice day out and the odd placing and do all the other things an all rounder is expected to do are worth their money, and surprisingly often seem few and far between (or at least proven to do that).

Unless I want a welshie to do dressage I am not good enough to really improve, and certainly not with any speed something. It is much more viable for me to buy something that will improve me than me mess something up.

I'd love to do a 90 one day, but on something that would help me out

 

[criso]

When local show jumping competitions started doing classes at 50cm then going up in 10cm increments lowering everyone's expectations of entry level which then pushes perceptions of higher jumps.

I remember the lowest starting at 2'6 for novice (75cm) and that was when I was on ponies. 3' to 3'6" was what I expected to be jumping in the 14.2 classes (and I'm talking local shows not affiliated) and I am very aware that these days I am jumping alot lower on my 16.2.

 

[Girlracer]

Many others beat me to it, but since Badminton Grassroots started! Not only that but there are many other competitions of an unaffiliate nature, and not forgetting how popular British Riding Clubs has become! There is a real big market for a good, consistent grassroots horse.

 

[ycbm]

Because to Win at that level, you still need a hood horse... not any of dibbin

I'd like to see an analysis of the origins and costs of horses winning at Intro.

I have a friend qualified for Badminton GR on a horse she paid £4000 for. Another has a little horse well capable of winning an Intro that cost £2,500. If I could be bothered, my £1200 Clydex has everything it would take to win an Intro.

Are people falling into the dressage trap? Thinking that if they only spend enough money then they will win?

 

[criso]

the only practice prior to that was local hunter trials, not forgetting hunting.
.

Just getting mine out for a bit of fun, really struggling to find many hunter trials locally.

 

[ycbm]

Just getting mine out for a bit of fun, really struggling to find many hunter trials locally.

I used to get ten a season with 45 minutes drive. Now there are two and the course is only half the length, due to the second runway at the airport.

Lower affiliated heights destroyed the local events

 

[ester]

I'd like to see an analysis of the origins and costs of horses winning at Intro.

I have a friend qualified for Badminton GR on a horse she paid £4000 for. Another has a little horse well capable of winning an Intro that cost £2,500. If I could be bothered, my £1200 Clydex has everything it would take to win an Intro.

Are people falling into the dressage trap? Thinking that if they only spend enough money then they will win?

I don't think it's the quality of the horse per se, it is usually the quality of the production.

It seems to me you usually have a couple of choices as with most things, you buy a horse with some basics for not so much money and put some work and usually pay for quite a lot on training to get those dressage scores where they need to be (pretty low!)
Or you spend more money on something that has been very well produced and just needs to be ridden.

I suspect both ways cost much the same in the long run and depends how much you like the journey as to which one you do, I don't think either is wrong .

Our local events had mostly stopped before BE80 came in, and the fact that it exists has meant that the bigger centres do have good 80 courses to run unaffliated over.

 

[Girlracer]

I used to get ten a season with 45 minutes drive. Now there are two and the course is only half the length, due to the second runway at the airport.

Lower affiliated heights destroyed the local events

Where are you based? As round here you will get more UA 80/90 than affiliated!

 

[ihatework]

In principal I agree with the sentiment.
But riding and horse ownership has changed over the years - and there are a lot of low level riders out there without the experience to make a horse who want to be doing it, and are prepared to pay.
Add on the Rising standards out affiliated - if you watch the ones winning 90’s it is a fair standard.

The vast majority of horses can go out and jump around 80/90 and pull off a semi respectable dressage test - if they are ridden well. That pool of horses decreases if you add into the mix nervous/novice riders with aspirations above either their ability or level of training.
Then add in the desire to be consistently competitive

 

[criso]

I used to get ten a season with 45 minutes drive. Now there are two and the course is only half the length, due to the second runway at the airport.

Lower affiliated heights destroyed the local events

I think there is more going on than just that as not much affiliated either. UA hunter trial run twice yearly by a local hunt is absolutely oversubscribed.

Another way to look at it is lack of local events and of a decent height makes 90cm seem much more of an stretch rather than what any horse is capable of.

 

[ycbm]

In principal I agree with the sentiment.
But riding and horse ownership has changed over the years - and there are a lot of low level riders out there without the experience to make a horse who want to be doing it, and are prepared to pay.
Add on the Rising standards out affiliated - if you watch the ones winning 90’s it is a fair standard.

The vast majority of horses can go out and jump around 80/90 and pull off a semi respectable dressage test - if they are ridden well. That pool of horses decreases if you add into the mix nervous/novice riders with aspirations above either their ability or level of training.
Then add in the desire to be consistently competitive

Good point. I never did have the desire to be consistently competitive, I just wanted to jump those courses!

 

[ycbm]

I think there is more going on than just that as not much affiliated either. UA hunter trial run twice yearly by a local hunt is absolutely oversubscribed.

Another way to look at it is lack of local events and of a decent height makes 90cm seem much more of an stretch rather than what any horse is capable of.

Another good point. They aren't around, so people don't see ordinary horses doing them, so they don't realise that any ordinary horse can do them.

 

[milliepops]

I don't think it's the quality of the horse per se, it is usually the quality of the production.

It seems to me you usually have a couple of choices as with most things, you buy a horse with some basics for not so much money and put some work and usually pay for quite a lot on training to get those dressage scores where they need to be (pretty low!)
Or you spend more money on something that has been very well produced and just needs to be ridden.

I suspect both ways cost much the same in the long run

think you've probably hit the nail on the head there.

 

[ihatework]

think you've probably hit the nail on the head there.

Spot on.
We sold an event Horse middle of last year that we had produced for 2 years. It wasn’t looking top draw so we didn’t upgrade it to Novice but instead kept it at PN and sold for Grassrootes. It had an immaculate record but I found it slightly embarrassing to ask eye watering money for something that had a limit on ability.
When I did the sums for original purchase price and 2 years of production we broke even! The market for really proven lower level horses is insane!
It’s good in a way though, at least good horses are starting to have a value.

I’m tight though, try not to pay much for one if I can help it!!

 

[TGM]

I think there is a HUGE difference in value between a horse which 'could' do the job, and one that is 'proven' to do the job, and especially one that is 'proven' to do the job with a fairly novice rider, or with one lacking in confidence. And there is a big difference between just 'doing the job' ie completing a BE80 or BE90 and doing it well - ie double clear within the time with a sub 30 dressage mark.

I know a lot of horses and ponies that compete at that level and generally you will find a lot of them are lacking in at least one phase - they might struggle with the dressage, they may be careless show jumping, or they may be a little nappy XC or have problems with ditches or water etc. So if you find one that is proven to do all three phases very well consistently, and will hack out sensibly alone or in company, is good in traffic, easy to handle and box, clip, shoe etc, with no health problems, it is going to be in great demand. And if something is in great demand then the price will go up.

 

[madamebonnie]

I think the majority of riders have become wimps as well...including myself! Perhaps as a kid I never had a good experience xc. My memories at riding school were falling off and having a long way to walk home. I do have lots of memories of bombing round the country side on first loan pony jumping anything possible. But between that and buying my first horse at 24 there was nothing that instilled confidence in my jumping ability (or the horses!)

I shuffle over a few 50-60cm every few months at home. I always thought to jump higher I would need to 'see a stride' have a good position and lots of other technical things. Until I went to somerford with a friend last month. I was wimping out of jumping so she offered to swap with her intermediate xc machine (omg. what. a. horse). My horse hadn't jumped for a while but she just faced him at some 2'6-2'9 jumps and he flew. So I'm sure we're capable of doing a 80/90 just the riders brain that's not!

If I am to sell him at any point I will make an effort with jumping, perhaps bribing some friend to take him round courses. But for now I'll just happily accept it's his rider holding back!

 

[Bernster]

Yep yep and yep �� What they have all said above! Especially ester, Millie pops, and tgm - those replies really resonated with me. Certainly agree that there is a good market for those that are proven or schoolmasters at the lower levels.

I am squarely in the camp of riders most of you are talking about. Like madambonnie most of what limits us is my brain and ability/fitness (and getting F when he as just turned 5). I know he could do 80/90 easily, and do well, with a more capable or even just a braver rider, as could many horses. It's doing it with me that's the bigger challenge!

I hate to think how much I've paid on training and outings but, if we did it for financial reasons, many of us wouldn't be here!

 

[daffy44]

I think ester, MP and ihatework have it pretty much spot on, I remember when i was eventing and pre novice was just introduced and people laughed and called it pre nervous!

I do understand though why the horse that is well behaved, competitive and forgiving of its rider at 90 is worth a lot of money, not least, because its what so many people want.

I did have to swallow a laugh though when i was told in all seriousness that someones horse needed a special diet as it was a special high performance sports horse, the reality of this high performance was 80 eventing and prelim dressage.

 

[Fragglerock]

I paid £6,000 for my horse of a lifetime. He was competitive and won at Intro level. However the big thing for me was riding the safest, most honest horse I have ever come across. Now he is a happy hacker but I know whatever goes on around him, he will carry on regardless, he won't buck, rear or tank off with me and that to me is priceless. The fact he was so competitive at the level at which I was competing was the icing on the cake. If I could find the same again I would pay double what I paid for him (assuming I had the money available of course).