When did an 80/90 'eventer' become special?

ycbm said:
Are people falling into the dressage trap? Thinking that if they only spend enough money then they will win?
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Nope. Refused to spend more than £3K on any horse/pony for daughter, and she's not done too badly out of it with the horse & with the last pony, can score in the low to mid 70s at novice last pony or /elementary dressage the horse, jump 1m+ and provided they go clear usually gets placed.
 
I agree with lot that has already been said. There is though, a huge difference in price (understandably) for horses that could go round a 90 but don't, and those who are proven around 90, consistent and with good records.

I don't know the thread you are talking about but I imagine the person is looking for a been there done it 80/90/100 horse for someone wanting to get into eventing, with good flat and a careful jump. Good enough for the odd rosette and a nice person. That sort of horse will most likely command a £10,000 price tag.

If they'd said: Looking for a smart horse, potential to go around 80/90 maybe higher in time. I'm brave enough to bring something unknown on and happy with some quirks/ young/ low mileage - they probably wouldn't need to up their budget and could probably get something for £3-£5k.

If they'd said: I want a horse that I can get around a 90, not worried about how it looks or if it has the ability to go any higher. Don't mind an ugly ducking and only want to pay £1,500 - they'd probably find something for that budget too.

The issues with needing to up the budget come when people want the first description for the 3rd budget!

I think the point that has also been missed is the technicality of the courses has also changed so the horse needed to get around a Novice in the 80's is very different to what you would need to get around a Novice now!

I do often wonder when reading autobiographies of our top riders, where they talk about being carted round their first Novice, in the good old days when it was entry level, by a green as grass 5/6yo straight out of the field who went onto win - how many of those horses in that 'state' (i.e not much steering/control but bold as brass/straight out the field) would get round a Novice of today? Very very different kettle of fish, not to mention even if you were brave (insane) enough you couldn't start at Novice even if you wanted to as you need to get your MERs from 90 and up regardless of what horse you are sat on!
 
LeannePip said:
I agree with lot that has already been said. There is though, a huge difference in price (understandably) for horses that could go round a 90 but don't, and those who are proven around 90, consistent and with good records.

I don't know the thread you are talking about but I imagine the person is looking for a been there done it 80/90/100 horse for someone wanting to get into eventing, with good flat and a careful jump. Good enough for the odd rosette and a nice person. That sort of horse will most likely command a £10,000 price tag.

If they'd said: Looking for a smart horse, potential to go around 80/90 maybe higher in time. I'm brave enough to bring something unknown on and happy with some quirks/ young/ low mileage - they probably wouldn't need to up their budget and could probably get something for £3-£5k.

If they'd said: I want a horse that I can get around a 90, not worried about how it looks or if it has the ability to go any higher. Don't mind an ugly ducking and only want to pay £1,500 - they'd probably find something for that budget too.

The issues with needing to up the budget come when people want the first description for the 3rd budget!

I think the point that has also been missed is the technicality of the courses has also changed so the horse needed to get around a Novice in the 80's is very different to what you would need to get around a Novice now!

I do often wonder when reading autobiographies of our top riders, where they talk about being carted round their first Novice, in the good old days when it was entry level, by a green as grass 5/6yo straight out of the field who went onto win - how many of those horses in that 'state' (i.e not much steering/control but bold as brass/straight out the field) would get round a Novice of today? Very very different kettle of fish, not to mention even if you were brave (insane) enough you couldn't start at Novice even if you wanted to as you need to get your MERs from 90 and up regardless of what horse you are sat on!
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Xc courses are very different to what they were 20/30 years ago
 
Multi quotes didn't work! Was trying to agree with IHW and TGM...

Agree with these two. While the vast majority of horses are capable of getting round a BE80/90, that does not mean all could with their current rider/owner! Put a pro/competent rider on them and it's a different kettle of fish.
There is also a huge difference between a horse that can 'just get round' and one that can get regularly placed/get to the MMC at Badminton. The latter will need to be a DC machine with dressage consistently low 30s/high 20s.
 
bollybop said:
Xc courses are very different to what they were 20/30 years ago
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At 80 and 90, the only significant difference I can see is skinnies, which you didn't used to get until Novice?

A lot of unaffiliated courses had some really tricky stuff in them, with bad approaches, landings or stridings. People thought nothing of it.

There seems to be a whole industry grown up in the last thirty years to convince people how difficult it is and how you'll never even be able to start without masses of training.
 
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Dubsie said:
Nope. Refused to spend more than £3K on any horse/pony for daughter, and she's not done too badly out of it with the horse & with the last pony, can score in the low to mid 70s at novice last pony or /elementary dressage the horse, jump 1m+ and provided they go clear usually gets placed.
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Mother after my own heart!



It really doesn't take a dressage superstar to get consistent 65+ at 80/90 does it? We are only talking about an easy Prelim, where allowances made for a (usually unlevel) grass surface and it being eventing (in the rules last time I looked) level the playing field a lot.
 
ycbm said:
I used to get ten a season with 45 minutes drive. Now there are two and the course is only half the length, due to the second runway at the airport.

Lower affiliated heights destroyed the local events :(
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Insurance and its requirements is the main problem. I'm on the committee of my local riding club. We can no longer afford to run any competition involving XC as the requirements of our insurance mean we have to have twice the paramedic cover, a vet on site, a horse ambulance etc. The venues we have to hire are more expensive too as they have to have all their fences built to BE standard so they've invested far more heavily in their facilities and pass those costs on. All these are good developments in terms of safety but people don't recognise this and aren't prepared to pay the entry fees we'd have to charge to break even. They think because it's unaffiliated we should be much cheaper without realising our costs are similar to affiliated events now.
 
annagain said:
Insurance and its requirements is the main problem. I'm on the committee of my local riding club. We can no longer afford to run any competition involving XC as the requirements of our insurance mean we have to have twice the paramedic cover, a vet on site, a horse ambulance etc. The venues we have to hire are more expensive too as they have to have all their fences built to BE standard so they've invested far more heavily in their facilities and pass those costs on. All these are good developments in terms of safety but people don't recognise this and aren't prepared to pay the entry fees we'd have to charge to break even. They think because it's unaffiliated we should be much cheaper without realising our costs are similar to affiliated events now.
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Very interesting AG, thank you.
 
Antw23uk said:
Glad I'm not the only one who finds this amusing :) I'n theory I have at least 20k both sitting muddy and bored in a field at home!
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Ditto - I am happy to be doing these levels with my ponies because they are home-reared *ponies* and I am not the most talented rider so it's an achievement for *me* to have brought them on. However, even then I have always said my 14.22 could do a lot more with a lightweight talented young rider.
 
bollybop said:
Xc courses are very different to what they were 20/30 years ago
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While courses may have got more technical generally, my experience of unaffiliated and pony club years ago is that it could go either way.

Less regulation and no consistent idea of what sort of fences were appropriate at different levels could mean tricky fences.

Our local pony club thought nothing of coming back from watching badminton and having a go at a mini version of something and there were a lot more combinations, angles, Vs where you could jump the corner or as a combination, bounces etc And courses that made use of the terrain with banks and jumps that launched you off the edge of hill.

Alot of what I see now at the lower levels is alot of standalone portables so all you jump is different wooden shapes on their own in a field. With a fashion for jumping something unusual house, boat, plane etc which could be spooky but is technically a straightforward fence.

Don't know if it's true but someone with pony club age kids told me that fences are now supposed to be filled in so corners and spreads have to be solid.
 
criso said:
When local show jumping competitions started doing classes at 50cm then going up in 10cm increments lowering everyone's expectations of entry level which then pushes perceptions of higher jumps.

I remember the lowest starting at 2'6 for novice (75cm) and that was when I was on ponies. 3' to 3'6" was what I expected to be jumping in the 14.2 classes (and I'm talking local shows not affiliated) and I am very aware that these days I am jumping alot lower on my 16.2.
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I agree with you criso. I remember jumping much bigger on ponies at unaffiliated shows than people do now. I also think you are right as they start at such lower heights now, it makes the 3' classes look enormous by the time they get to it.
 
LeannePip said:
I don't know the thread you are talking about but I imagine the person is looking for a been there done it 80/90/100 horse for someone wanting to get into eventing, with good flat and a careful jump. Good enough for the odd rosette and a nice person. That sort of horse will most likely command a £10,000 price tag.
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I'm sure you are right... I can't imagine ever spending that on a fairly ordinary horse (I was brought up by an extremely stingey old fashioned adopted horsey mother) but from conversations at the yard I know that there are others willing to put out that kind of cash. I've been a part-time sounding board for a friend who is looking for a straightforward amateur allrounder and while I reckon I could find it for less than £5k she's looking in the 10K range.

I do think that horse prices are quite weird though - you can go out looking for a niceish sort for 2k, or 5k, or 10k, or 20k and find a huge amount of overlap at each price bracket, it seems.

So weird. I feel kind of lucky to sit outside all that in a way, Salty is the most expensive one I've had for ages and she was £900! :p
 
I can see the attraction of having a nice safe horse to do the 80s and 90s. The BE events put on a lovely day which the grassroots riders can enjoy as well as the more advanced riders.

Being an old f@rt, I can well remember the RC ODEs which ran at novice (2'9") and open (3'6"). The trouble for wimps like me was that you soon got out of novice if you did well. After two wins from two starts I was no longer eligible for novice, but was no way ready or brave enough for open, so that was the end of eventing for me.
 
Not that I agree on the extortionate prices they go for. But I guess the attraction is a horse that is a good allrounder at a lower level would be perfect for beginners, teenagers and nervous adults alike. Therefore, highly in demand.
 
I'm even older! When I started unafilliated SJ novice was 3', intermediate 3'3" and open 3'6". BSJA started at 3'6" so when you were doing well at open you then progressed to affiliated. Unafilliated events were a similar height (possibly 3" lower for xc.) However, courses were well built and up to height so you needed a horse to be able to jump properly and aimed first for clear round and then for speed. Now BS courses start at 2'3" lol and are basically a flat out race around the course hopefully leaving all poles up.
 
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I wonder if the cost of affiliating and the entries for BE is a psychological factor too? When you are paying out in £80 or £90+ including start fee for each BE90 then I guess you want a decent chance of getting round and perhaps doing fairly well. Perhaps like buying a smart, fast car a more expensive horse MIGHT get you there quicker, however in my opinion the fuel and servicing costs might not be worth it in the end!

When my son was eventing his (on permanent loan from a friend) anglo-arab x cob we were definitely at the shorter-legged, hairier horse end of the spectrum. At some events trailers were ushered to a discreet parking area away from the 'proper' horseboxes so apparently the amount you have appeared to spend could be a factor if these things bother you! Most people were incredibly supportive and helpful. They breezed through BE100s and really enjoyed Novice and one-star but in the end did not enjoy Intermediate as my son got scared for his horse (we had nearly lost the horse to a colon tumour so he was extra-precious). My son retired from eventing and still enjoys his horse 'just' hacking and ocassional dressage and hunter trials. My son is a decent rider and at the start the horse had not jumped a stick but it was great to see just how far they progressed over the 7 years when they were competing and the bond and trust that they built up.
 
I think it's because there are now a lot of courses smaller than 90cm. When 90cm isn't the smallest course in a competition it sounds more impressive than it would have when it was the smallest. I suppose, by extension the horse also appears to be more capable.
 
I laugh at those adverts asking ridiculous money for one doing that level. I couldnt even sell my mare last year who is popping round and being placed in BE90's as well as winning other stuff like WH, Trec Qualifiers etc. so a real allrounder IMO, as well as a lovely horse to handle and be around - £3,500 was all I wanted but nope I generally attracted beginners and nobody properly serious so I gave up and took her off the market. Maybe I was asking too little going by this post! Any horse can jump 80/90 IMO. But hey, I couldnt even get £15k for my last competition horse (now retired) who was the most consistent horse there was, never refused or misbehaved - always well placed BE Novices (and CIC*), won BS 1.10 and 1.15's pretty much every outing and jumped 1.20's. Best mannered horse you could find, but hell nobody was interested! From what I can tell, the genuine honest horses are being looked past and people just seem to want super-flashy looking nutjobs instead these days!
 
mle22 said:
We have a little mare who would take anyone round 80/90 all day long. She gets very good dressage marks and is a clean jumper too. She also wins a lot in WH. If she was ever for sale that would be the kind of money we’d want for her. Very well worth it if you want to have fun and be competitive at that level
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I've emboldened what I consider to be the salient point here. As we all know there is a massive rise in the 'hobby' owner. People who have not been brought up riding (and to some degree on the hunting field), and so whilst capable are, still looking for that special horse to take them around - rather than the other way around.

And so, yes to my mind these horses ate worth every penny of the £10-12k price tag they command.
 
TGM said:
I think there is a HUGE difference in value between a horse which 'could' do the job, and one that is 'proven' to do the job, and especially one that is 'proven' to do the job with a fairly novice rider, or with one lacking in confidence. And there is a big difference between just 'doing the job' ie completing a BE80 or BE90 and doing it well - ie double clear within the time with a sub 30 dressage mark.

I know a lot of horses and ponies that compete at that level and generally you will find a lot of them are lacking in at least one phase - they might struggle with the dressage, they may be careless show jumping, or they may be a little nappy XC or have problems with ditches or water etc. So if you find one that is proven to do all three phases very well consistently, and will hack out sensibly alone or in company, is good in traffic, easy to handle and box, clip, shoe etc, with no health problems, it is going to be in great demand. And if something is in great demand then the price will go up.
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Good reply
 
Tiddlypom said:
I can see the attraction of having a nice safe horse to do the 80s and 90s. The BE events put on a lovely day which the grassroots riders can enjoy as well as the more advanced riders.

Being an old f@rt, I can well remember the RC ODEs which ran at novice (2'9") and open (3'6"). The trouble for wimps like me was that you soon got out of novice if you did well. After two wins from two starts I was no longer eligible for novice, but was no way ready or brave enough for open, so that was the end of eventing for me.
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I remember doing a PC or hunt ODE years ago where the open was listed as "2'6 to 4' " I'll admit over many of the fences my heart was in my mouth (gappy solid logs hanging mid air down the side of a hilly stubble field and a huge table) but I thought travelling there for the novice at 2'6 wasn't worth it.
 
It's the sort of horse (to a certain extent) I'll probably be looking for in the not too distant future, sadly with two 22 year olds at the moment. Although I could spend up to £10k, if I really had to, I certainly don't intend to. I'm not out to win so one that will do a decent test and get round safely but not set the world on fire will do me and hopefully save me £5k in the process! I've been window shopping to prepare myself and it seems to be a very strange market. It seems that very similar (on paper at least) horses can go for anything between £3.5k and £12k.
 
annagain said:
As an example, is the first horse really worth nearly three times as much as the second?

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...marsh/superb-young-event-prospect-499462.html

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...nit=4902&age__min=5&age__max=9&age__unit=5497
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Impossible to tell. As advertised probably not but there isn’t much about the second one that grabs me itrespective of price.

15k for an unproven 4yo i’d need to see/feel it in the flesh and have to very good video to make me want to travel
 
ihatework said:
Impossible to tell. As advertised probably not but there isn’t much about the second one that grabs me itrespective of price.

15k for an unproven 4yo i’d need to see/feel it in the flesh and have to very good video to make me want to travel
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That's what I meant when I said 'on paper'. As someone who may be in the market soonish I know which one I'd be looking at though. Maybe the 4yr old really is destined for great heights but there's little in his advert to suggest that.
 
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