When do you say enough is enough? :( *Ramble!*

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Grey_Eventer

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After yet another elimination today at the 8th fence of 9 at area SJing i withdrew from the rest of the competition, withdrew from gatcombe on friday and have decided my horse can start his holiday early and have 3 and a half weeks off...
But he is clearly not right, and everyone saying "well its up to you" is making it SO difficult for me to know what to do with him... when he goes he'll win easily, but its almost like once hes stopped once hes going to not bother doing it at all... and i just don't know what to do anymore... hes my everything and i don't want it to be the end of us competing :(
Here are the facts:
15 years old, currently jumping 1.05m/1.10m and has been stopping randomly and with no consisten factor to it all, until i think now...

We've had his teeth checked, his back checked the other day, vet out... what else can i do?!
I have an awful feeling that its his joints, because hes recently been stopping on grass but winning on a surface... buut, sometimes he will jump on grass (hambleden- which was like concrete!) which makes it very confusing...
But maybe its a pshychological thing... its like once hes done one thing wrong he throws in the towel...we've tried the whole building confidence thing, went down to 2.3ft but its just not the height, we've ironed out my bad habits which may have contributed to him stopping... and i just can't think of much else :(

When do you say that enough is enough and draw the line and give them an easier life? I was planning on hunting and team chasing him this winter as he loves both of these and would be quite happy doing that...

GAH. this has turned into rambling!
Basically what im trying to say is after this year of trying to work out why hes stopping should i draw the line, hang up my competition boots for now and do what hes happy with? This horse means the world to me and i wouldn't even consider selling him as a hack if it did come to him needing to be that... he can stay with me and do that...

Anyone been in a similar situation? Trots up very sound so def. not lame... just doesn't seem right :(

Advice? Really fed up but not with him, but i have put everything in to him, we've learnt so much together, hes my first horse and when he goes is just so amazing, but its like he has a block or something... :(
*sighs*
 
It might not help, but we had a hunter I used to take showjumping

He would jump 3ft 9" one day and dump me over 2ft the next. The answer was corns and basically if it was a bit hard and his feet hurt, he wouldn't jump. However if he didn't have a corn then he would jump. It was the most frustrating thing, but just how he was!

Trouble is they cannot tell you how they are feeling and everyone has off days!
 
Has he had a lameness work up? Ie nerve blocks etc. Maybe get a second opinion.

Else I'd stick with what you know he's happiest doing and get your kicks out team chasing.
 
If you really do think it might be his joints it might be worth a chat with your veta about having his hocks medicated. Its not something Id rush into - but if he is stopping an awful lot on grass then might be worth blocking and riding him over fences on grass - but that may not give you a definitive answer so possibly going straight to medicating jts and measuring the results. Alternstively you could xray hocks first. I say all this as hock arthritis is one of the main causes of lameness and/or performance loss in jumping horses. Your horse may be be uncomfortable on the flat but may find the pressure on his joints when jumping is painful. Having said that, i would exhaust all other possibilities first.

If YOU are happy to hunt and team chase but not compete then do just that, but if you really do want to try to get out competing again then you need to do something about it. Time off is a good place to start.
 
Hey i had exactly the same problems with my 15 year old warmblood mare one weekend she would win a dis/newcomers the next wouldnt even do the first fence,sometimes she would jump the first 9 and then stop at the last which = very frustrated horse and rider,i had the usual checked,back and teeth ect and everything fine, 4 weeks ago i decided i wouldnt sj her again and it has been the right decision i have made as i now dont get frustrated with her,i am lucky that she is a fabulous hunter and whips in twice a week she now lives the life of riley which she loves and i have just bought a new horse to sj/event. Calling it a day isnt the end and lots of experienced instuctors agreed with me i see it as taking a new line on things and doing what your horse enjoys,enjoy your horse whilst you can!:)
 
I would get yourself to a really decent sports horse vet who is used to looking at top competition animals and book in for a loss of performance workup. They'll look at all kinds of things like ulcers, lameness, muscular issues etc.
 
My old event horse did the same at that age, I retired him from competition as to me that just wasnt him at all- he'd always been a super keen jumper and something was clearly amiss. He did have a lameness work up which showed nothing, I think he just didnt want to play anymore.
He's now a schoolmaster lesson horse- he did a year at Hartpury college and is now at a smaller BHS training place which he adores and lives a very happy, low pressured life. Interestingly he's really enjoying his easy jumping now too.
 
Give him his holiday, and see if that perks him up. If it doesn't then I'd probably look into x-raying his joints; my old lad started having the odd pole down which wasn't like him at all, and then went hopping lame - turned out he had a bone spavin and had been trying so hard to be sound and continue working that I hadn't really noticed anything wrong apart from the odd pole!
Is he on any joint supplements at the moment? If he isn't then I'd recommend newmarket joint supplement - Bronts had been on cortaflex for four years, swapped him onto that and there was such a difference (plus it worked out cheaper ;))
 
This isn't really an answer to your question, but I was just wondering whether you have done a bute trial with him? If he jumps consistently on any surface when on bute then you will know it is a pain issue and can go from there. Personally, I would do this before racking up vet fees, or considering retiring him from SJ.
 
It really does sound like there's a physical aspect. You know yourself, if something hurts, there are good days and bad days, often without obvious cause. There is also a mental component to pain - if everything else is going well, it's bearable. If something else is a problem that day, it's not.

I would say though, if you're going to get him worked up, do it while he's jumping not after he's had a rest. It's likely to be relatively subtle at this point and might very well "improve" with a break but that doesn't mean it's fixed and there's every chance it will flare up again when you put the pressure on.

If you really feel it's not physical (which is tricky - I know all sorts of problems which improved with training but turned out to be physical at the root) then get a lesson with a very good instructor known for problem solving. A good option can be a clinic as it replicates a show environment somewhat and tends to go at a good clip. It's interesting sometimes what a fresh eye can bring to a problem.
 
Have you had his saddle checked? My event mare jacked it in jumping on grass but was fab on a surface, and it was because her saddle was jarring her back when she landed on hard ground. And that was a saddle that we bought for her 9 months before, and had checked by 2 saddlers that both said it was ok before Chris Gohl looked at it and told us to change it....

Could be many things, but I would agree with whoever mentioned a bute trial if you think it could be joints... Would need to leave him on it for long enough for him to stop expecting it to hurt as well though..
 
Have just had a similiar problem with Sarnie, loss of performance when jumping despite being sound. Had herr looked at by the vet who does the GB eventing team and she has identified a number of issues we are now treating - pelvis and hocks in her case.
 
We had a big hunter of my husband's who'd been fabulous for years (but think he'd had a fairly hard time of it workwise with previous owners). He took my husband hunter trialling and show jumping beyond their wildest dreams. When he was 15, he just started to stop at jumps for no apparent reason - almost in a panicky way. We had everything checked and no conclusion was come to, but the same year we decided to retire him from competition as it was obvious he'd literally just had enough. He still hunted that season and still had fire in his belly for it so we sold him onto a hacking/gentle hunting home where he still continues to live the life of rilley (age 18) in a rather grand country estate. We still believe we did the right thing for him as we felt he was trying to tell us something, There wasn't a nasty bone in his body.
 
i dont know if this will help but my middleweight mare would jump fantasticaly on a surface and very good grass arena, but if the ground was slightly hard or uneven she would stop, especially at spreads or slight downhill fences.I tried (under vets supervision)bute at home and jumped her, and took her off bute and jumped her over the same jumps. It made no difference, the vet recomended Devils Relief (and only jumping on perfect ground) and she seems ok. I felt that she was feeling the landings on her front legs and the Devils relief seems to help.
 
CotswoldSJ said:
It might not help, but we had a hunter I used to take showjumping

He would jump 3ft 9" one day and dump me over 2ft the next. The answer was corns and basically if it was a bit hard and his feet hurt, he wouldn't jump. However if he didn't have a corn then he would jump. It was the most frustrating thing, but just how he was!

Trouble is they cannot tell you how they are feeling and everyone has off days!
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This is exactly what hes like- its nothing to do with the height, just sometimes he says no and thats that! He previously did have a corn so will get farrier to have a look when hes out next week.

ollierdog said:
Hey i had exactly the same problems with my 15 year old warmblood mare one weekend she would win a dis/newcomers the next wouldnt even do the first fence,sometimes she would jump the first 9 and then stop at the last which = very frustrated horse and rider,i had the usual checked,back and teeth ect and everything fine, 4 weeks ago i decided i wouldnt sj her again and it has been the right decision i have made as i now dont get frustrated with her,i am lucky that she is a fabulous hunter and whips in twice a week she now lives the life of riley which she loves and i have just bought a new horse to sj/event. Calling it a day isnt the end and lots of experienced instuctors agreed with me i see it as taking a new line on things and doing what your horse enjoys,enjoy your horse whilst you can!:)
Click to expand...

I think, in a way its no bad thing if i do decide to stop competing him and maybe just have the odd indoor SJing to keep his life varied and then team chase and hunt him... im going away for next summer anyway and were the same age basically so when i go to uni. it wont do him any harm to just be hunted/team chased...

SusieT said:
Have you had his back and joints investigated?
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the vet came out as i was concerned by the loss of performance, he had tight muscles all along his back and shoulder so physio has sorted that but she couldn't find anything that would cause him to stop so think im going to get vet back out again...

SpottedCat said:
I would get yourself to a really decent sports horse vet who is used to looking at top competition animals and book in for a loss of performance workup. They'll look at all kinds of things like ulcers, lameness, muscular issues etc.
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my vets are mainly dealing with racehorses so are very very good as are also a referal hospital place so might ask for a work up...

Katie_A said:
This isn't really an answer to your question, but I was just wondering whether you have done a bute trial with him? If he jumps consistently on any surface when on bute then you will know it is a pain issue and can go from there. Personally, I would do this before racking up vet fees, or considering retiring him from SJ.
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Not too keen on doing a bute trial as we don't know what is wrong with him and i don't want to cause more damage than good by doing a bute trial...

TarrSteps said:
It really does sound like there's a physical aspect. You know yourself, if something hurts, there are good days and bad days, often without obvious cause. There is also a mental component to pain - if everything else is going well, it's bearable. If something else is a problem that day, it's not.

I would say though, if you're going to get him worked up, do it while he's jumping not after he's had a rest. It's likely to be relatively subtle at this point and might very well "improve" with a break but that doesn't mean it's fixed and there's every chance it will flare up again when you put the pressure on.

If you really feel it's not physical (which is tricky - I know all sorts of problems which improved with training but turned out to be physical at the root) then get a lesson with a very good instructor known for problem solving. A good option can be a clinic as it replicates a show environment somewhat and tends to go at a good clip. It's interesting sometimes what a fresh eye can bring to a problem.
Click to expand...

Thank you for this, its difficult as im off on work experience on sunday and hes sort of on his holiday now, as planned so will have to get him fit and going again and then ask for the work-up i suppose...
I do sometimes wander if its a competition environement but he LOVES it and i guess as we only jump on a sruface at home its difficult to say its because of the environement.

Noodlejaffa said:
We had a big hunter of my husband's who'd been fabulous for years (but think he'd had a fairly hard time of it workwise with previous owners). He took my husband hunter trialling and show jumping beyond their wildest dreams. When he was 15, he just started to stop at jumps for no apparent reason - almost in a panicky way. We had everything checked and no conclusion was come to, but the same year we decided to retire him from competition as it was obvious he'd literally just had enough. He still hunted that season and still had fire in his belly for it so we sold him onto a hacking/gentle hunting home where he still continues to live the life of rilley (age 18) in a rather grand country estate. We still believe we did the right thing for him as we felt he was trying to tell us something, There wasn't a nasty bone in his body.
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Hes such a kind horse and so willing to learn etc. and he really doesn't do it out of nastiness, there is just obviously something wrong that we don't know about. And he stops in a sort of panicky way as if hes scared or something, but not spooking... I think hunting and team chasing would be a good option for him but will get a work-up just in case...

rossiroo said:
i dont know if this will help but my middleweight mare would jump fantasticaly on a surface and very good grass arena, but if the ground was slightly hard or uneven she would stop, especially at spreads or slight downhill fences.I tried (under vets supervision)bute at home and jumped her, and took her off bute and jumped her over the same jumps. It made no difference, the vet recomended Devils Relief (and only jumping on perfect ground) and she seems ok. I felt that she was feeling the landings on her front legs and the Devils relief seems to help.
Click to expand...

I'll ask my vet about that as my horse generally only stops at spreads, htere have been other times where hes stopped at uprights, but id put that down to my bad riding rather than him... so will ask about that. thank you :)
 
I saw your round (was watching our PC's intermediate team and you went in after them), and tbh he looked really good over the first part of the course, and looked really happy up until that double. I'm sure you looked at the results; both courses where causing carnage, and in the open I saw ponies doing pony trials stopping and even getting eliminated. A lot of horses where feeling the ground- it wasn't brilliant. Has he ever been nappy before? Just that a lot of horses where stopping at the first part of that double as they had been stood around in the practice ring and then had to go round and past the collecting ring to jump this jump, catching many people out.

Hope you sort it all out anyway, I'm no vet so wont try and offer you any advice re what to do, just wanted to say that he did look really good around the majority of the course! :)
 
BroadfordQueen said:
I saw your round (was watching our PC's intermediate team and you went in after them), and tbh he looked really good over the first part of the course, and looked really happy up until that double. I'm sure you looked at the results; both courses where causing carnage, and in the open I saw ponies doing pony trials stopping and even getting eliminated. A lot of horses where feeling the ground- it wasn't brilliant. Has he ever been nappy before? Just that a lot of horses where stopping at the first part of that double as they had been stood around in the practice ring and then had to go round and past the collecting ring to jump this jump, catching many people out.

Hope you sort it all out anyway, I'm no vet so wont try and offer you any advice re what to do, just wanted to say that he did look really good around the majority of the course! :)
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He felt horrible over most of it tbh :( I'm suprised he looked good as going into every fence he felt all uncomfortable and funny... over the first double was horrific! I'm suprised most stayed up tbh!
I was wandering whether its a napping thing, as at ettington the last triple was away from the collecting ring, but hes never shown signs of not going forward other than the stopping- if that makes sense?! He just was not having any of it though and i just couldn't get him over that fence :( Eurgh. glad it didn't look as bad as it felt!
 
What are his feet like? A horse of his age and his workload may well be susceptable to navicular, or heel pain. If he has, check to see that he lands slightly heel first in walk and moreso in trot. If he lands flat footed in trot or toe first in walk or trot it could indicate heel pain. If its a recent thing for him to stop at fences, it would be the ideal time to try to resolve any foot issues. Say to your vet maybe to use hoof testers and analyse his movement.
It may be because landing over the jumps could be causing him pain.
Just do a thorough body check on him, but dont forget the feet. Any pain in his feet could cause soreness and stiffness in his back and neck.
Good luck and hope he feels better soon.
 
mystiandsunny said:
If you are worried about the joints, maybe x-ray if you can afford it? More of a definitive answer there. Tight backs etc can be caused by compensating for pain elsewhere.
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I think were going to go down this route as when the vet came out she said it was an option but wanted the physoi first. *sighs* at least dad is the kind of person who will do everything for the horse! :D

Jennyharvey said:
What are his feet like? A horse of his age and his workload may well be susceptable to navicular, or heel pain. If he has, check to see that he lands slightly heel first in walk and moreso in trot. If he lands flat footed in trot or toe first in walk or trot it could indicate heel pain. If its a recent thing for him to stop at fences, it would be the ideal time to try to resolve any foot issues. Say to your vet maybe to use hoof testers and analyse his movement.
It may be because landing over the jumps could be causing him pain.
Just do a thorough body check on him, but dont forget the feet. Any pain in his feet could cause soreness and stiffness in his back and neck.
Good luck and hope he feels better soon.
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That's interesting, hadn't thought of that. Will have a look today. Farriers always comment that he has 4 very strong feet that are all a good shape but def. will have a look as to how he walks/trots. :)
 
I havcent read all the replies but this sounds like my boy, I thought he was just being a git but turned out to be navicular.. so I would get a workup at the vets if he was mine, at least then you'll know.
 
Oh my goodness!

Anyone thought it might..... just be some confidence going issues going on here?

You could of unknowingly got yourself into a situation, where you are both lacking a bit of trust in one another.

Maybe you have had the odd miss here and there, so he has doubted your position of authority slightly. We all do it unless your John wittaker lol!.

Are you having regular training? Im not sure where your based, but you sound like your local to me. I could recommend a few people to help you.

Ruling out any pain issues... Get a proper showjumper to ride him for you, and see what kind of rapport they get.

I would imagine the issue is in his head....
 
Hi, I had similar problems with my fifteen year old last year, we would go round a PN double clear one week and then it was awful the next. After much heartache i took her to the vets and had her investigated and there was stuff wrong.

Personally if there is a change to what there normally is a problem in my experience, back, saddle etc and its worth getting checked out for piece of mind if anything.
 
Knew a sweet kind 4* eventer, same age done very well at Badminton, and had retired happily to show jumping. Nothing physically wrong with him, but after a few shows where he was eliminated in Newcomers (!), for no obvious reason he went to mince around in a sand pit as a school master. He was a very happy boy for many years. I think sometimes, as long as you are sure there is no physical discomfort, horses just have had enough and its no-ones fault. x
 
Not sure how long you have been having these issues…but I sort of had a similar thing last year – horse was going well one minute but we went to one event and half way round the SJ he just said ‘no I’m not doing this’. Tried to pop a cross pole (course was 90cm) presented at cross pole on perfect stride and he slammed on the brakes. Trotted up sound afterwards. Carried on working as normal, popped the odd log then went on a fun XC ride. Fun it was not! He failed to take off over a suspended log which resulted in me doing a handstand and breaking my finger. After this he started to feel wrong. Trotted up sound but just didn’t feel right?

I pressed on with flatwork. The feeling of ‘not right’ went on for a good couple of months before he FINALLY went ever so slightly lame on his off fore – at last something to work on! Hoof trimmer came 2 days later and found an abscess ready to blow out of his heel. He was back to his old self within a few days. Interestingly his hoof growth on that hoof changed significantly once this abscess blew – we think it had been brewing and moving about for ages, but not causing him enough pain to be lame, but maybe he was feeling it landing from a fence.
 
Have his eyesight checked. I once rode a horse that would jump anything. He started stopping, particularly at doubles or combination fences. Turned out he was beginning to get cataracts on both his eyes.
 
mgould said:
Maybe he just needs a break from it or to do something different...
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we try and keep his life v. varied so he events, show jumps, team chases, hunts etc. etc. to try and make sure he doesn't go stale! not sure what else we can do with him so that he is doing something different! :D

Leg_end said:
I havcent read all the replies but this sounds like my boy, I thought he was just being a git but turned out to be navicular.. so I would get a workup at the vets if he was mine, at least then you'll know.
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I think im going to ring the vets after his/my holiday to book him in for a work-up :/

Daisychain said:
Oh my goodness!

Anyone thought it might..... just be some confidence going issues going on here?

You could of unknowingly got yourself into a situation, where you are both lacking a bit of trust in one another.

Maybe you have had the odd miss here and there, so he has doubted your position of authority slightly. We all do it unless your John wittaker lol!.

Are you having regular training? Im not sure where your based, but you sound like your local to me. I could recommend a few people to help you.

Ruling out any pain issues... Get a proper showjumper to ride him for you, and see what kind of rapport they get.

I would imagine the issue is in his head....
Click to expand...
Oh my goodness, have you read my post? i've said it isn't a confidence thing- if it was he wouldn't be jumping at all, but just not jumping on grass is clearly a physical issue, no?
He is jumping fine on a surface, just not on grass- that doesn't suggest confidence issues.
Don't lack trust in one another- trust me! I don't think he would jump 5ft hedges out hunting if we did have trust issues.
Yes i was having reglar team training with top riders.
Not keen on getting a pro to ride him as he likes very few people riding him, i think Weezy and my dad are the only others he hasn't freaked out with... and i think it could very easily turn into a beating session if we went down that route. he has been in a pro. pony sjing yard and it didn't suit him (this was before i owned him)

LittleGreyMare said:
Hi, I had similar problems with my fifteen year old last year, we would go round a PN double clear one week and then it was awful the next. After much heartache i took her to the vets and had her investigated and there was stuff wrong.

Personally if there is a change to what there normally is a problem in my experience, back, saddle etc and its worth getting checked out for piece of mind if anything.
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I think taking him to the vets is the only option atm as even if there isn't anything wrong- which i doubt then at least i know where i stand either way...

paisley said:
Knew a sweet kind 4* eventer, same age done very well at Badminton, and had retired happily to show jumping. Nothing physically wrong with him, but after a few shows where he was eliminated in Newcomers (!), for no obvious reason he went to mince around in a sand pit as a school master. He was a very happy boy for many years. I think sometimes, as long as you are sure there is no physical discomfort, horses just have had enough and its no-ones fault. x
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I do sometimes wander if he has just had enough, having been SJed far too much as a baby in ireland and in wales i think may be he has just had enough of it all, but its difficult to think that when he jumps fine on a surface!

stilltrying said:
Not sure how long you have been having these issues…but I sort of had a similar thing last year – horse was going well one minute but we went to one event and half way round the SJ he just said ‘no I’m not doing this’. Tried to pop a cross pole (course was 90cm) presented at cross pole on perfect stride and he slammed on the brakes. Trotted up sound afterwards. Carried on working as normal, popped the odd log then went on a fun XC ride. Fun it was not! He failed to take off over a suspended log which resulted in me doing a handstand and breaking my finger. After this he started to feel wrong. Trotted up sound but just didn’t feel right?

I pressed on with flatwork. The feeling of ‘not right’ went on for a good couple of months before he FINALLY went ever so slightly lame on his off fore – at last something to work on! Hoof trimmer came 2 days later and found an abscess ready to blow out of his heel. He was back to his old self within a few days. Interestingly his hoof growth on that hoof changed significantly once this abscess blew – we think it had been brewing and moving about for ages, but not causing him enough pain to be lame, but maybe he was feeling it landing from a fence.
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In a way it would be good if he did go lame as we would have something to go on then but hes as sound as they come, but when we had him vetted the then GB event team vet said he was one of the soundest horses he had seen in a long time... farrier is coming next wed. so will see if he finds anything.


MozartK said:
Have his eyesight checked. I once rode a horse that would jump anything. He started stopping, particularly at doubles or combination fences. Turned out he was beginning to get cataracts on both his eyes.
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I did wander if his eye sight was ok- are there any sort of noticeable changes in their behaviour- other than stopping...?

Thanks everyone :D
 
save yourself loads of money initially. tomorrow lunge him in trot both ways on a hard surface/concrete on a 4 to 5 metre circle! honestly ask yourself if he is sound! might just need a break but i would think a 15 year old wont lunge round sound. sorry. i think he really is trying to tell you something. and yes he probably will thoroughly enjoy his hunting and team chasing when his blood is up and adrenaline is kicking in for the next 10 yrs and will probably be sound on the straight. hopefully you will prove me wrong................
 
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