When is enough, enough? Should we PTS as unridable??

algeredge

algeredge

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Not really CR but I value the opinions of you guys on here more than some of the other rooms.
My sister bought a new horse about 3 years ago, 16.1HH Westphalian gelding i think is about 8 now. He was bought from a local dealer as recommended by her SJ trainer at the time. Tried him, jumped him and obviously liked him, but she didnt get him vetted (despite our advice!) Was told that J-PS had previously evented him.
A few weeks after she brought him home he was very keen SJ and the brakes started to fail. He is also very nappy and wont ride out alone, but will still nap even when in company.
He also has a very sharp fly buck on him. One day he can be an angel, another he can be a complete devil and wont even jump an x pole. Flat work is the same, some days he just doesnt want to know and will just buck and slam the anchors on.
She has had his back, teeth and tack checked several times, no obvious problems. She has tried an equine behaviouralist/natural horseman with him which didn't really help. We thought maybe he had been passed from home to home, and was imported as a youngester so maybe he needed a stable and sympathetic home for a while. 3 years later he is still no better, to the point of being dangerous.

In a last ditched attempt she sent him away this week to a local show jumper to see whether it is a schooling issue or what. The girl took him for a week and tried SJ at Weston Lawns on Sunday. Apparently it was not good. She says he is just so angry all of the time.
Everything is a battle with him-one day they could not even get him out of the stable.
She also thinks he may be tying up a little bit behind. The vet did some initial checks and found some gall stones.

We are now at the point of 1) Do we spend a LOT of money investigating health side of things 2) Do we turn him out to grass and try him again in a few months 3) Do we give him away as a field companion (he is quite sweet to handle on the ground normally) or 4) Do we PTS as he is virtually unridable. My thought are that he must be in pain as its not normal for a horse to be so angry, but is it worth all of the expense and heartache?

Sorry this is a long one, but it is a big decision. Any thoughts or similar experiences?
 
Crikey you've almost just discribed a horse that I currently have, even down to the being imported and passed from pilar to post bit!
 
IMO you should send him to a good equine vet for a full investigation. Assuming that your sister has had experienced eyes on the ground during the time he has been with her and that help or instructor agrees she can't make ridden progress then I would want to rule out pain. He doesn't sound like a happy horse.
 
Full investigation, or if you cannot afford it PTS.

What's his competition name? BE results are easy to look up.
 
Another thought? Have you had him scoped for ulcers? Have you tried different feeds with him, or has he been fed the same thing all along?

Maybe worth trying an animal commuicator? Or perhaps an iridologist? Sports massgae? Accupuncture? And before anyone shoots me down, sometimes something a bit different might just help.
 
I assume he is uninsured?

I had a horse who acted similarly only mine was also dangerous and aggressive to handle. Mine was diagnosed with chronic sacro illiac dysfunction. Interestingly mine is a well bred branded Westphalian too!

Personally I would find a good holistic vet - one that is a qualified osteopath preferbly and send him to them for a full work up, He sounds like he is pain, but without a diagnosis you don't know whether what is wrong is fixable or not. Have you tried getting a physio out to him to take some muscle measurements and to do some checking for soreness/tightness yet? A physio can possibly pinpoint the problem area for you. He could of course have ulcers if he is a stressy horse and these will very likely affect his ridden behaviour.

I wouldn't want to pts a horse without knowing what is wrong; you are denying him a chance and every animal deserves that imo.
 
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I have never heard of a horse being diagnosed with gallstones before - did the vet suggest any treatment for this? I have had them myself and the intermittent pain was excruciating before I eventually had them and gall bladder removed. I can imagine a horse in that much pain would be both unridable and dangerous TBH. Sorry not much help to you but just my thoughts on that side of it.
 
My first response would be to investigate pain. Re turning him away, there is no guarantee it will cure what ails him - I'm a big fan of turning horses away but it only works if they've got something that will heal and/or work is not the trigger - and a couple of months is not very long, even for healing. Obviously giving away is not a great option - you know with a big, good looking horse people will keep trying and while he may be lucky, it's quite likely he won't.

It's a personal decision, obviously. I do know a fair number of people who have ended up putting such horses down and others who have spent a lot of money with no clear answers found. It really comes down to what you're willing to do.
 
wench said:
Another thought? Have you had him scoped for ulcers? Have you tried different feeds with him, or has he been fed the same thing all along?

Maybe worth trying an animal commuicator? Or perhaps an iridologist? Sports massgae? Accupuncture? And before anyone shoots me down, sometimes something a bit different might just help.
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Thats the route I took with my boy, he was diagnosed with IBS, but the communicator was the turning point, what a difference, his trust came almost instantly, he is not backed yet, this years project!! He told me he would rather be in a hole than be sold on again!
 
My thought are that he must be in pain as its not normal for a horse to be so angry, but is it worth all of the expense and heartache?
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Watched an interesting programme the other day - a veterinary one. They had a cat in. Nasty little male that would bite, claw and generally have a go at any and every opportunity. It was in for urinary tract surgery. It's behaviour had always been nasty according to the owner - but had worsened over the past few months.

The cat successfully underwent surgery - and is transformed. No more aggression, anger or attacks. It's previous behaviour was put purely down to pain - and pain that it had been experiencing for a number of years.

So I would say that yes, it's worth getting this horse investigated for health issues (gal stones are incredibly painful in people) - and go from there.

Good luck.
 
wench said:
Another thought? Have you had him scoped for ulcers? Have you tried different feeds with him, or has he been fed the same thing all along?

Maybe worth trying an animal commuicator? Or perhaps an iridologist? Sports massgae? Accupuncture? And before anyone shoots me down, sometimes something a bit different might just help.
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Actually this is exactly what I did in first instance. I paid around £100 in total for a shiatsu session for my horse, then an iridology report and then a communication. All 3 pointed to a problem in r/h upper hind. He went to Newmarket and was diagnosed at Sue Dyson's clinic with chronic SI dyfunction (that took a week there to find!) - that cost £3,800.00. So imo if you are uninsured and tight for money - try the iridology and communicator and maybe a physio route. Good luck and keep us posted.

I agree with Tarrsteps you must never pass this horse on imo.
 
I think every horse deserves a chance. Obviously he is not a happy horse. I would be stepping back and taking a look at his management and see what could be changed to make him any happier - feed / amount of turnout / tack etc.. If all that has been done on that front then I would be looking for a vets opinion. They can investigate furthur and will be able to tell you what furthur action to take if need be.

I wouldn't be putting to sleep just for a horses behaviour. Most have a reason to be the way they are, although appreciate some hang onto their past for a while. Although it can take a lot of time and money to sort out the issues. If said horse is not insured or you do not have the time, then turn the horse away as you say. Its not going to hurt it to have a bit of time off. But as others have said if the problem is pain related and it isn't found before being turned away the horse is just going to be the same when it comes back into work

Good luck and I hope your sister finds the right solution for both her and the horse xx
 
Hopefully he is insured and you can have his problems investigated properly. We had a mare who was very similar. We persevered for 5 years and she had some fab days and some awful days. She had numerous check ups, nothing was ever found as she was never lame. In the end we paid for her to go for scintigraphy...and she had kissing spines and a SI injury that was untreatable. Yet she was never lame and a bute trial hadnt helped. We did put her to sleep but we knew then that we were doing the totally right thing by her.
 
Someone who knows this horse inside out needs to follow a gut instinct, it's rarely wrong and is often at the finish line having once been the starter.

Good Luck!
 
Know of someone with a horse that could be his twin from what you have described!! Also Dutch import, backed far too early, did too much too soon yadda yadda!!

He has had to be turned away completely, has had nearly 3 years out at grass, has been treated for ulcers several times, as the slightest bit of stress and they flare up again. And has been seeing a Vet that is also an Osteo, and has had a lot of treatments and she is just starting back with gentle long reining.
 
The horse sounds very unhappy to me and if this has been going on a long time I do wonder why the vets haven't been consulted long before.

I think when we buy a horse, especially for ridden/competing work, we have to accept that things may go wrong and we need to make sure we are in a position to help if/when they do - by either insuring for vets fees or making sure we have savings put aside.

To me you will gain not a lot by turning away. If you are insured have the horse sent away to an equine specilist hospital for full investigations. If you are not insured then I think you owe it to this horse to at least try and find out what is wrong - then take a decision to treat/PTS according to the findings and your circumstances.

That said, if the above was not viable then PTS now rather than passing the problem onto someone else.
 
wench said:
Another thought? Have you had him scoped for ulcers? Have you tried different feeds with him, or has he been fed the same thing all along?

Maybe worth trying an animal commuicator? Or perhaps an iridologist? Sports massgae? Accupuncture? And before anyone shoots me down, sometimes something a bit different might just help.
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My first thought too - ULCERS!

mine developed a bad attitude/temper and poor performance!....


she also had low grade colic... (on GG now)


personally id scope........or stick him on a ulcer supplement to see

but if you can, scope - its not too expensive.
 
Having been in a similar situation with a very unhappy horse, I feel for you. The only bit of advice I can offer is if you are insured, it can get difficult trying to convince your insurer that the undesirable behaviour is due to a painful condition that you may or may not find. I spent a fortune getting diagnoses on my gelding, only for Petplan to wriggle out of £1600 of the claim. That was my experience anyway. In hindsight I wish I'd had a PM done, but I couldn't afford it (financially or emotionally!).
 
I'm known for being paranoid, but even taking a more 'normal' point of view, I'd definitely have him investigated for ulcers and a work-up at an equine hospital.

It doesn't always give you an answer that has a fix, but at least it gives you something, and who knows, the poor sod might indeed be in pain and you will either be able to fix it, or to end it by pts if fixing it is not an option.
 
The only issue re ulcers is they are often - in some opinions almost always - present in horses in chronic pain. This does not mean every horse with ulcers has a problem elsewhere - there are lots of triggers - but it does mean that finding them doesn't necessarily preclude another problem.

Insurance is another matter. . .I'm afraid I know other people who have had the same experience as above, where they have ended up significantly out of pocket for a path they would likely not have embarked on had they not had insurance in the first place.

All that said, I'm afraid I agree with ihw and others -.we do owe our competition horses, not just for their usefulness but because they are living beings and it's our idea to make them do the things they do. I am actually a big fan of turning away, especially if I have a good idea what the problem is, but even that is a responsibility.

If you are going to ask horses questions I think you are honour bound to give them all the support you can to answer those questions. If you cannot give them the support they need, for whatever reason, then you can't ask the questions.
 
Have you tried a bute trial.... if he turns into a 'less angry horse' it might indicate that he is in pain, its also a relatively inexpensive way to start the process. Good luck
 
Important point made by Tarrsteps. My horse had low grade ulcers, but they were symptomatic of his serious injury, not the cause of his pain. I just had a gut feeling about this, so agreed with my vet to send him for full investigation.
 
i would try a reputable ac first. compared to the cost of other things it's cheap, and can make a huge difference.
then, full work-up by a good vet.
have you tried him bareback? NEVER believe a saddler (or even multiple saddlers, however famous, qualified etc) over a horse. the horse is absolutely the only 'person' in the room whose opinion counts when it comes to how comfy a saddle is... however good it looks etc.
if you're going to turn him away, a few months is nothing. ime it takes at least a year for Dr Green to do his magic to a horse's physical and mental state...
not even going out of the stable... jeeez. either he dreads what he's going to be asked to do... or he dreads how he's going to feel doing it.
i do NOT believe that horses as a rule have a "stuff you, shan't do it" attitude to simple things... and even if they've had bad times I think that IF they are comfy now and being asked things well within their mental and physical capabilities, most horses will happily comply...
I'd definitely ring JP and ask him about the horse too, fwiw.
 
Another thought - have you always used the same saddler/dentist/back person? If not might be worth double checking with different ones. People on here normally will give really good recommendations.

I do agree with Kerrili... ac is a cheap, easy first port of call. In the mean time, I would be looking at checking all of the above again. (Even if your normal ones are good, a different set of eyes/hands may find something different.)
 
algeredge said:
She also thinks he may be tying up a little bit behind.
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This can be easily checked by taking bloods. If it is found to be the case it may well be worth removing all starch/sugar from the diet, soaking all hay for at least 16 hours and feeding oil for extra calories/energy as needed. Some Warmbloods are very prone to this and whilst not necessarily the cause of all his symptoms won't make things easier. This diet certaily won't hurt whatever his condition!
 
Thank you for all your replies, it really helps.
Personally, both of mine were vetted and x rayed before purchase, and I always have them insured with vets fees but thats just me. Not everyone thinks the same I guess.
Personally I think she should try every avenue with the vet before making any big decisions. It was great to hear that we are not the only ones and some of you have very similar experiences. It looks like a long road ahead. I'll keep you updated x
 
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