Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Mine are incredibly shiney, good nutrition does that, but fluffier than in an unspayed bitch, and a heavier coat around the shoulders. Like you say, perhaps greys are different.
When to spay?
- Thread starter SAujla
- Start date
Mine are incredibly shiney, good nutrition does that, but fluffier than in an unspayed bitch, and a heavier coat around the shoulders. Like you say, perhaps greys are different.
dree
Well-Known Member
Re: the GA. I know this is a tad off topic. But does anyone ask for a specific GA? I always ask for Rapinovet.
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And lurchers and cavalier spaniels then 😊
SusieT
Well-Known Member
One particularly springs to mind, a Westie who developed a form of alopecia and needed to take hormone tablets for the rest of her life, to counteract it. There are others affected similarly and other posters have mentioned cruciate ligament problems. And, of course a GA always carries a risk.
- so a westie developed skin problems- how can you be sure this is hormone related? This is a common breed for skin trouble.
Cruciate disease- this happens, how did you link it to spay?
It's statements like ' known lots of dogs that have problems that I'm sure have come from hormone related illnesses even though there are so may other things that could also be a factor' that need challenged . Thankfully most people seem to be coming round to the idea spaying to prevent pyo's and mammary tumours is worthwhile.
- so a westie developed skin problems- how can you be sure this is hormone related? This is a common breed for skin trouble.
Cruciate disease- this happens, how did you link it to spay?
It's statements like ' known lots of dogs that have problems that I'm sure have come from hormone related illnesses even though there are so may other things that could also be a factor' that need challenged . Thankfully most people seem to be coming round to the idea spaying to prevent pyo's and mammary tumours is worthwhile.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
re Ga: if I trust the vet to do the spay I trust them to select the right drugs.
Bojangles321
Member
Just to be the odd one out, we got a rescue bitch and she arrived with us at 7 months old having not had a season. Neighbours had a similar aged bitch who was having a season and had turned surprisingly snappy, and to this day she remains unpredictable and snappy with strangers. First time she showed signs of being unpredictable was just before her season started.
anyway, we took our rescue to the vets for a check up and to discuss spaying. We weighed up pros and cons and because having a very young family, we decided to spay before first season to make sure we didn’t get any grumpy behaviour. Don’t regret it at all, she’s now 2 and the loveliest, calmest most loyal dog you could ask for. She’s a mongrel so not sure about muscle and growth, but she certainly doesn’t look puppyish, her coat is gorgeous and she’s a quiet and calm dog, loves her walks but likes nothing more than to snooze on the sofa.
anyway, we took our rescue to the vets for a check up and to discuss spaying. We weighed up pros and cons and because having a very young family, we decided to spay before first season to make sure we didn’t get any grumpy behaviour. Don’t regret it at all, she’s now 2 and the loveliest, calmest most loyal dog you could ask for. She’s a mongrel so not sure about muscle and growth, but she certainly doesn’t look puppyish, her coat is gorgeous and she’s a quiet and calm dog, loves her walks but likes nothing more than to snooze on the sofa.
Equi
Well-Known Member
There are many differing views on it. From a vet view the spay is easier when the uterus has not be used so its smaller thus smaller incisions and less likely to cause a bleed/less likely for the bitch to be in heat (without owner knowing) and less likely to already be accidentally pregnant. That is all easier for the vet. For the dog, it may not be the best thing. Spaying/neutering for a normal everyday pet is in my opinion unneccessary. They are raely out of view and owners are able to look after the mess etc. I neuter/spay my farm cats cause i don't want 100s of kittens i need to look after/rehome but i try not to do it to dogs unless needed...my staff bitch was spayed because she had been stolen and when we got her back (thankfully due to the help of the police) i spayed her because i didn't want her taken again and ever used as a breeder for fights which is prevalent in my arena. My dog was neutered at about 9 because one of his balls grew bigger, so off they came.
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
Having spent ages reading up on this recently, what Rara said. There is no right answer. I am quite happy to leave my dogs entire unless theres a problem, but not bitches. I've known too many pyo cases, and I know you dont hear about the ones who dont get it, but its enough for me to be aware there is a risk. Mines off to the vets in a fortnight to be assessed with a view to being spayed. Shes roughly a year old and hasnt had a season yet. I'm going to be guided by what my vet says based on the dog in front of her.
gallopingby
Well-Known Member
I’ve currently a bitch who has problems after being spayed at 18 months. She was perfectly clean, no leaking before and she’s now on hormone meds for the rest of her life. Various suggestions as to whether this is to do with the spay / vet procedure. The meds aren’t cheap and after two years still trying to get it right,
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
My hairdresser has a bitch with the same problem, her bitch was spayed at 2 after 2 seasons. The fact that it is rare makes it no less of a PITA to deal with. I do feel sorry for you (and her).
windand rain
Well-Known Member
I would never again spay a bitch unles absolutely necessay for her health ie pyo every bitch regardless of age I have met that has been spayed has had different alterations in temperament increased risk in labradors and golden retrievers of heart cancer, long bone cancer and aneurism. You really should research the cons as well as the pros to neutering dogs. It is not simply stopping seasons. My lab was spayed at 8 years against my better judgement to try to prevent pyo as she was already having surgery for an unrelated problem it seemed sensible I have regreted it every day since she is more fearful, more staid, has aged 6 years in 6 months, she cannot go to stay at the dog walkers as she is so stressed she used to love it I love her to bits but she has changed so much
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
The problem with pyo is the only way to stop it is to spay. Once they have it you are already in a life or death situation. Another poster on here nearly lost her lovely little bitch a couple of months ago. It really was a miracle she pulled through.
I do know the cons, and thats the reason my male dogs arent done. Weighing it up, it made sense to leave them be. I had my oldest chemically castrated to see if that would help with his issues rather than castrate him. It didnt so we left it at that. For me though, with bitches the pros far outweigh the cons.
windand rain
Well-Known Member
We have only ever had 3 bitches spayed all three were and still are an issue one was due to pyo so essential she was fine after the spay health wise but had a nervous breakdown and had to be PTS while looking like a healthy dog she couldnt cope with noise so was frantic. She physically pulled her teeth out, getting progressively worse as she got older, ripped the pads off her feet and vomited when someone was shooting 3 miles away I had to walk her while OH hoovered the carpets and eventually just before I had her PTS she was at home while we went shopping She ripped herself to bits in a frantic attempt to hide bitting herself, vomitting and pooing she was so scared why because out ajoining neighbour was putting a shed up in his garden and was using a drill. Before seh was spayed she was a bold outgoing girl who was training to be a gundog. Second was a GSD who was rescued from a rabbit farm at 4 weeks of age we had a dog she had no papers so in order for her to live a good life she was spayed a short while later she too changed she was a very friendly girl and loved kids to bits but took to burying her head usually we were around to rescue her eventually she died of a brain heamorage caused by weakened blood vessels and the head burying
The third is the one above so I have been either very unlucky or people do not notice the difference in their dogs
Should probably add we used to have multiple dogs and have probably owned about 20 bitches in the last 40 years
The third is the one above so I have been either very unlucky or people do not notice the difference in their dogs
Should probably add we used to have multiple dogs and have probably owned about 20 bitches in the last 40 years
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Because the vet said so, obviously! It wasn't my dog. I don't spay unless medially indicated and have no intention of doing so. I know of other dogs who have had post-spay problems but I am not going to bother to take the time to list them all - google will explain if you need to check.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
We did have 2 JRT's with pyo, they were operated on and made a good recovery. The owner needs to take notice of their dogs in order to spot problems.
Like w&r, we have had over 20 bitches, most lived into their teens, we have never lost one to pyo. Only the 2x JRTs have had it. A couple had been spayed prior to our owning them as they were rescues.
If we were going to remove the body parts at risk, we would take the spleen out of Rotties routinely, as they are so prone to cancer of the spleen. When I suggested that to my vet, he dismissed the idea. Spay is useful for those who wish to work their dogs year round but not necessary for responsible pet owners, who are capable of dealing with a bitch in season without an accidental pregnancy. Of course those who can't/don't want to put themselves out enough to avoid an accidental pregnancy will be best having their bitch spayed.
The rescues have pushed the idea of avoiding accidental pregnancy, understandably but that doesn't make it right for every bitch.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
SO you have had two dogs have a totally preventable illness- had they died you would have just said 'oh well' instead of realising you could have prevented it ?
20 bitches is actually not that high a number in stats. You have had a 10% pyo occurance - higher if you take out the ones already spayed so you are an example of how common it is - have a think about that.
I'm glad my vet and doctor don't use google to work out the best treatments....
20 bitches is actually not that high a number in stats. You have had a 10% pyo occurance - higher if you take out the ones already spayed so you are an example of how common it is - have a think about that.
I'm glad my vet and doctor don't use google to work out the best treatments....
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
We have had a 75% rate of splenetic cancer in our Rotters, preventable by prophylactic splenectamy, our vet declined to perform the op, we have has 0% of our bitches die from pio......
rara007
Well-Known Member
To be fair the spleen is a bit more useful than the uterus in a non breeding dog! And the surgery is much trickier, longer and riskier. Obviously you get non splenic hemangiosarcomas too so Im not sure that is 100% ‘cure’. The pounding the body goes through having the spleen removed is incomparable to a spay.
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YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
I am aware of that, but was responding to ST, rather ridiculous post, something I keep telling myself not to do!
Peter7917
Well-Known Member
My bitch is a year old now and has just had her first season. She's still so immature in behaviour and to look at so I will be allowing her another one and will then reassess.
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
The owner is a qualified vet nurse so probably pretty well placed to notice things. She was rushed in very quickly. The dog still very nearly died.
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
Oh come on! I am perfectly happy to accept there can be issues, some of them serious and related complications but you are blaming all of the above on being spayed? Correlation does not equal causation!
dree
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid I don't. I've seen my dogs after ACP, and because they are all working breeds and not checked for MDR1 (my bad) I asked for Rapinovet. The difference was incredible. Instead of wobbling out and hardly able to stand, they walked out normally. I would never use ACP again. Jmo.
dree
Well-Known Member
There was a scientific study done on retrievers which showed the pros and cons of early spays and neuters. Early spays and neuters have (in that study) led to higher incidences of cruciate problems due to the bones being thinner, etc.
dree
Well-Known Member
You don't say what breed or age the dog was that you pts due to noise issues? And the GSD....what age was she spayed at? (You say you got her at 4wks old and spayed shortly after?) Head burying is a complication from...sod it....need to look it up now, so if that was never recognised and treated, it may have nothing to do with the spay. Your first dog you say had a nervous breakdown.....again what age....again couldn't cope with noise. You've either been very, very unlucky or their have been other illnesses present which went unrecognised.
This is what I was meaning.
https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_multi_headpressing
Edit to add....What, if anything, did you do to try and solve the noise issues? Do you thing this could be treatment at the vets (it's why I don't like ACP) as this can be extremely stressful. I have to say that I have had all my bitches spayed and never found any change in temperament in any of them. I find your three dogs both disturbing and interesting at the same time. (Sorry, that is not meant to mean that I don't care. )
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dree
Well-Known Member
People might find this interesting. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5816950/
From the article:- "There was a large proportion of neutered dogs: 9 of 10 of both controls and “clinical cases,†whereas the Pet Animal Welfare Report (29) suggests that nationally only about 71% of dogs are neutered. A study by Spain et al. (30) found that decreasing age at gonadectomy in shelter dogs was associated with an increased risk of developing a noise phobia, but it could not be concluded that neutering is causative of noise phobias."
Interesting topic, if inconclusive.
From the article:- "There was a large proportion of neutered dogs: 9 of 10 of both controls and “clinical cases,†whereas the Pet Animal Welfare Report (29) suggests that nationally only about 71% of dogs are neutered. A study by Spain et al. (30) found that decreasing age at gonadectomy in shelter dogs was associated with an increased risk of developing a noise phobia, but it could not be concluded that neutering is causative of noise phobias."
Interesting topic, if inconclusive.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Rapinovet is a trade name for propofol, it’s not interchangeable with ACP.
SAujla
Well-Known Member
Do vets allow you to choose which anesthetic?they use I know I can do research on them but with regards to something like that I feel it would be better to go with vets advice, its what they are there and paid for. Like someone above posted if I trust them to spay then I trust them to know how best to do it.
've looked at pro and cons and I will spay, and I'm fairly sure I will wait at least one season (maybe two if the dog and I handle the first one okay)
've looked at pro and cons and I will spay, and I'm fairly sure I will wait at least one season (maybe two if the dog and I handle the first one okay)
windand rain
Well-Known Member
The bitch PTS was an 10 year old Golden retriever that could run the legs off a whippet she was spayed after pyometra at 8 years and was not noise phobic before we spent hundreds if not thousands on vet care and university trials but she got progressively worse she was extremely healthy all her life and had no clinical signs of illness the day she died we had every test and treatment possible at that time 10 years ago. The GSD was spayed at 15 months after her first season again the odd behaviour started within a short space of time and again therre seemed no veterinary solution. Currently Willow has only shown signs of stress if asked to visit other homes She is 9 and again the vets can only say it is a hormonal change due to spay. Sorry but I have also met lots of people whose lovely puppies have changed once spayed most dont mind but some do. Dog walking friend had to have her lab PTS due to heart cancer again aggravatate by early spay research is freely available. Landlord where we keep our trailer was commenting on her dogs change of character once she was spayed without prompting I might add. My colleague had a late spay aged 8 again done because she had other surgery that one lasted a few months before it too got heart cancer and died a year later. As you see I have plenty of experience of spay side effects and have many healthy experiences of unspayed bitches as well. I will never spay another one unless absolutely necessary but appreciate that many will for their own convenience. My unspayed Newfoundland was one of if not the oldest ever in the breed history at 17 years of age
Aru
Well-Known Member
Vets don't generally let owners chose anaesthetics.
They may discuss concerns but personally if after talking through concerns if an owner is trying to insist on an illogical choice and doesn't trust me to chose my anaesthetic protocol as a professional we will not have a working relationship. I'm not risking killing an animal by using drugs I'm not familiar with or by making my anaesthetic unbalanced without a very good reason.
Even amoung vets we all have different drug combos we prefer...the safest anaesthetic is the one the vet is most confident using in most cases, obviously we modify meds in the case of underlying illness.
Knowing what's normal for a drug protocol makes spotting abnormal much easier and allows modifications to occur early and prevents complications. Getting used to a new premed and induction combo is often very stressful as they are all a little different. I've around 8 canine combos I can do comfortably at this stage and have definite preferences for set cases...I have worked in several different continents at this stage with limited drugs on some so collect more then the average lol
The most interesting cases where these disconnect tends to occur in is in pedigree cats like the Sphinx...lots of backyard breeders like to insist these cats are special and cannot have ketamine, in reality ketamine will only cause issues with cats that have a testable prior to breeding disease that affects the heart. I tend to have long discussions with new kitten owners about heart testing prior to any anaesthetic when they tell me the breeder says they cannot have x.... It implies the breeder already knows their cats have the genetic issue or have already lost kittens...but rather then being responsible and not breeding these animals or spending money on heart screening...they try and make out the breed is special and it's the vets fault when they die due to their occult heart disease.... It's very very frustrating.
Many of these sort of myths about anaesthetics do have a grain of truth present so should never be dismissed when specific drugs are mentioned.
Propofol and acp are not interchangeable but acp is an interesting drug in the sensitive breeds, many of the affects are dose dependent and it can cause some prolonged effects in some abnormal gene dogs. It's actually not unreasonable to avoid it or use low dose protocols if you have a family of dogs having issues post surgery with it.
It's used as a premed though not an induction agent or used in induction combos(induction refers to how we bring about unconsciousness in order to pass endotracheal tubes etc) So it usually needs to be replaced with a different drug when acp is not an option,as you need a premed to balance the fear and stress the animals face for Cather placement and induction to try and stabilise the overall anaesthetic,for one thing a scared dog will have massive levels of adrenaline present if they aren't premedicated. That does not make for a stable anaesthetic. premeds are usually a sedative and strong pain relief like from the opioid group.
However the other issue with dropping your premed and just using an induction agent is you will need much higher levels of induction and inhaled anaesthetic to keep them under....which can do horrific things to the blood pressure and place the kidneys under pressure. It's a balancing act,all drugs have pros and cons.
Anaesthetics are all about balancing risk and it's not always a clear cut case of just use x. There's a reason human anaesthetists are incredible well paid, it's a challenging area of medicine.