When to spay?

[Oenoke]

There are pros and cons to having a bitch spayed at 6 months or waiting until growth plates have closed. Personally I'd rather wait until they are about 2 years old.

If you wait until they have had a season there are risks of:-
Pyometra
Mammary tumours
Unwanted pregnancy

If you spay before a season there are risks of:-
Urinary incontenance
Joint problems
In some breeds bone tumours
Stay puppylike in attitude

 

[SAujla]

There are pros and cons to having a bitch spayed at 6 months or waiting until growth plates have closed. Personally I'd rather wait until they are about 2 years old.

If you wait until they have had a season there are risks of:-
Pyometra
Mammary tumours
Unwanted pregnancy

If you spay before a season there are risks of:-
Urinary incontence
Joint problems
In some breeds bone tumours
Stay puppylike in attitude

That does feel like the summary I've got too, allowing for extra pros and cons in individual cases, with the risks of waiting I can actively do something about one of them in the unwanted pregnancy, thats on me if it happens so its in my control at least.

 

[dree]

Do vets allow you to choose which anesthetic?they use I know I can do research on them but with regards to something like that I feel it would be better to go with vets advice, its what they are there and paid for. Like someone above posted if I trust them to spay then I trust them to know how best to do it.

've looked at pro and cons and I will spay, and I'm fairly sure I will wait at least one season (maybe two if the dog and I handle the first one okay)

I always ask for Rapinovet because ACP has been known to cause bad side-effects with herding breeds with the MDR1 trait. Some vets have been a bit....oh, ACP's never harmed a dog yet, but they say that about vaccines, Bravecto, etc. My dog, my choice.

 

[dree]

Vets don't generally let owners chose anaesthetics.

Many of these sort of myths about anaesthetics do have a grain of truth present so should never be dismissed when specific drugs are mentioned.

Propofol and acp are not interchangeable but acp is an interesting drug in the sensitive breeds, many of the affects are dose dependent and it can cause some prolonged effects in some abnormal gene dogs. It's actually not unreasonable to avoid it or use low dose protocols if you have a family of dogs having issues post surgery with it

I always discuss the use of Rapinovet with the vet and/or anaesthestist long beforehand. I've never had a problem with it being used on all of my dogs.

 

[dree]

The bitch PTS was an 10 year old Golden retriever that could run the legs off a whippet she was spayed after pyometra at 8 years and was not noise phobic before we spent hundreds if not thousands on vet care and university trials but she got progressively worse she was extremely healthy all her life and had no clinical signs of illness the day she died we had every test and treatment possible at that time 10 years ago. The GSD was spayed at 15 months after her first season again the odd behaviour started within a short space of time and again therre seemed no veterinary solution. Currently Willow has only shown signs of stress if asked to visit other homes She is 9 and again the vets can only say it is a hormonal change due to spay. Sorry but I have also met lots of people whose lovely puppies have changed once spayed most dont mind but some do. Dog walking friend had to have her lab PTS due to heart cancer again aggravatate by early spay research is freely available. Landlord where we keep our trailer was commenting on her dogs change of character once she was spayed without prompting I might add. My colleague had a late spay aged 8 again done because she had other surgery that one lasted a few months before it too got heart cancer and died a year later. As you see I have plenty of experience of spay side effects and have many healthy experiences of unspayed bitches as well. I will never spay another one unless absolutely necessary but appreciate that many will for their own convenience. My unspayed Newfoundland was one of if not the oldest ever in the breed history at 17 years of age

I'm not dismissing what you're saying, but I have had bitches for 40 years and had all of them spayed. I have never seen a change in temperament, especially to the extent you are talking about. Maybe it's because all our dogs are obedience dogs and well-trained......maybe they take their cues from me and not outside influences? (No disrespect intended here....more like thinking out loud.) It's interesting that your dogs were all what I would call "late" spays....10 y/o, 9 y/o.....apart from your very young GSD. Your GSD came from a bad situation so whether you like it or not, that's a strong imprint on a 4 wk old puppy. Yes, I have read all about cancers and cruciates, etc., but none of this is proven? I think so far studies are under way.....I certainly would never spay too young. But to associate *everything* to spaying I find a bit too much. I lost my Terv to cancer but I personally don't associate it to spaying as I found out she had cancer in her breed lines. I did have a collie which was noise sensitive to the point of being a nutter......but I took her from the litter at 5wks....so similar to your GSD....she was better off with me than where she was, believe me. As someone who has done "behaviour" stuff, I find imprinting on very young pups that leave the nest too soon to be very, very important, and there's not a lot you can do about it, except show them that you will keep them safe. I'm maybe digressing a bit, but I think there a lot more factors in a change in behaviour than "just" the spay.....the treatment during the spay could be a factor. There's lots of things that could or could not correlate to a change in behaviour.

I am not disrespecting you in what you've said. It's a subject that is fascinating, and I'm sure more studies will either prove or disprove things either way. We're always learning.

 

[GSD Woman]

ACP, is that acepromazine?

 

[dree]

ACP, is that acepromazine?

Yes. And this article explains partly why I don't like it.

https://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyve...m-not-big-fan-when-it-comes-sedation-ace-6937

 

[rara007]

Did you read the article? The author is promoting it as part of a pre-med!

 

[windand rain]

Everyones experiences are different so Nothing will convince me to spay particularly a labrador or golden retriever the research to me is pretty clear. We obedience train all our dogs to competition level. The GSD was accepted by my Newfoundland bitch so moved from her mum to her quite happily looked a bit odd but it worked she wasnt weaned until 8 weeks by the newfie and lived with her for the rest of her short life. I am not saying everyone should not spay but just that there is little need to inflict serious surgical pain on a young dog because the side effects of doing so can be as serious if not more so than leaving well alone unless medically necessary. Do as you wish I know I will never do it again. Sadly those indoctrinated to pay large amounts of money for convenience still will so nothing will change that until vets are not making the bulk of their money from spay/neutering dogs. Cats are different in every way it is socially unacceptable to not neuter a tom cat and spay a female cat due to their behaviour when in oestrus and multiple sexually transmitted diseases

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Everyones experiences are different so Nothing will convince me to spay particularly a labrador or golden retriever the research to me is pretty clear. We obedience train all our dogs to competition level. The GSD was accepted by my Newfoundland bitch so moved from her mum to her quite happily looked a bit odd but it worked she wasnt weaned until 8 weeks by the newfie and lived with her for the rest of her short life. I am not saying everyone should not spay but just that there is little need to inflict serious surgical pain on a young dog because the side effects of doing so can be as serious if not more so than leaving well alone unless medically necessary. Do as you wish I know I will never do it again. Sadly those indoctrinated to pay large amounts of money for convenience still will so nothing will change that until vets are not making the bulk of their money from spay/neutering dogs. Cats are different in every way it is socially unacceptable to not neuter a tom cat and spay a female cat due to their behaviour when in oestrus and multiple sexually transmitted diseases

I absolutely agree! It's interesting how the emphasis has changed from spaying Lab bitches young to avoid mammary tumours, to spaying them to avoid pyo. I shan't be spaying ours unless medically indicated. I can't think of one bitch that we have ever had pts (and some were 'too young') that spay would have made any difference to.

 

[Aru]

Spaying age is a very very controversial subject.

Imo its also breed and personality dependent as well as age.

Having worked in areas where its common to do puppy speys(8 to 12 weeks in rescue,16 weeks in private practice) as well as areas where spaying is uncommon and older animal speys are the norm if ones done at all..personally I'd rather risk the early spey issues then the leaving intact for life ones in most breeds. But like everything in life each choice carries risks and pros and cons.

The cancer prone breeds are somewhat different to the average and we are starting to leave them later to try and reduce their risk for the lower stat risk cancers-Rottweilers and goldens are the big ones that immediately jump to mind....but that's part of the issue with the recent golden study. It is skewed because goldens are to cancer as cavies are to mitral valve disease. They have a very serious predisposition to multiple tumours types....which is part of what motivated the study! So using them as a breed to baseline off is somewhat flawed...but it's better then no research.

My own dog will be speyed as soon as possible once her breeding career is over...and I will be screening her regularity for mammary lumps and removing asap once found..

Pyometra alone is reason enough to spey any mature dog imo and the risk rises with age as they continue to go through heats. It usually happens a few weeks aftet the end of the heat. Having seen to many critically bitches from pyometras-(hit and miss survival rate,almost all directly linked depending on how quickly their owner realised they were seriously sick as they often show subtle early signs esp in closed pyos) I dont see the advantage of ticking timebomb of hormones staying in a mature dog.

Closed pyos (no discharge occurs out the vagina its all stuck behind the cervix so the pus just builds up and up inside the body until the dog either dies of septocaemia or the uterus ruptures letting the pus into the abdomen)are particularly nasty and those are the most likely to die as they are often very sick by the time they are diagnosed but need emergency surgery. Theres a saying in Vet med...never let a sun set on a pyo. Unless its a draining one they are ticking timebombs that im referring to...thankfully they are less common then an open pyo,those where some of the pus is draining out of the dog..

Mammary cancers-I hate these because its hard to know which one you have without testing. This is an issue as the malignant version likes to spreads reasonably quickly to the lungs....and bar chemo(which is a thread of its own on ethics and when and which to use it on)theres not a lot to be done once its spread. But at the same time many are also benign-the issue is making sure you know which one you have..

For my own dog I'm not looking forward to this when shes older. She is going to be speyed too late to have benifit from having the hormones removed to reduce the mammary cancer risk...

Obesity is actually the main issue I see post desexing...but that tends to be an owner overfeeding issue.
You cannot feed a desexed animal the same as an entire one.
Personality changes isn't something thats ever been mentioned to me for a female dogs. Males yep..but its rarely negative.

For a Labrador...if your able to handle having an entire dog and heats(you would be be amazed how few people want to go through them once they know whats involved)...I'd usually suggest spey between 12 and 18 months.
In an ideal world I'd only let them go through one heat,have them going into surgery fit as a fiddle with a body condition score of 2.5 to 3 out of 5 and check the hips and elbows at the same. Ideal world dreaming. If I ever have a lab again though...

I would recommend getting the procedure done laproscopically if you can in almost all large breed dogs though if possible. Much less invasive to the body involved in that operation then a standard spey in a deep chested breed. Your ovaries attach beside your kidneys.... an experienced vet will have a small incision, but there is no denying a laproscope is much less invasive for the big dogs.

 

[ApolloStorm]

I have two entire bitches, one will be staying that way as we have plans for her. The other is now 4 and will be being spayed before 5, as there is no need for her to have the risk of pyo . Though I am glad I waited as between 2-4 she's matured hugely physically, she's widened and looks less babyish than she did at 2.

In terms of early spays Id echo what others have said and wait til at least 2. I pulled this off this review -http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
which has a full list of references for those who wish to peruse.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common
  malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
  dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (≤0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
  common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
  a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
  associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
  spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

 

[skinnydipper]

Replying to Sukhpreet's original post. Sorry, not answering your question of when to spay but just sharing my experience of spayed bitches, none of them were Labradors.

Of my 11 dogs, 7 have been bitches. They were all rescues so were spayed prior to adoption. Their ages ranged from 5 months to the current one who is 2 years.

Out of those 7, one suffered from spay incontinence and took Incurin throughout her life.

Another had an inverted (immature) vulva which, had she been allowed to have a season, may have come right. She needed bathing daily and barrier cream applying to prevent urine scalding and despite my best efforts frequently suffered from vulval infections and UTIs. She also ruptured a cruciate ligament.

One bitch died from a ruptured haemangiosarcoma - there is an increased incidence with spay/neuter. She had been recently spayed when I got her. Things didn't look right to me so I took her to my vet who needed to operate again, I was told she had a reaction to her internal sutures and these were replaced.

Another bitch developed a grade 3 mast cell tumour, again increased risk with spay/neuter.

One of the dogs (neutered before adoption) developed a grade 2 mast cell tumour, risk increased with spay/neuter.

Only one of my 4 males was entire - not a decision my vet was happy with but the dog suffered no ill effects from keeping his testes. It is easy enough to check for testicular cancer and I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

In this area vets are recommending castration at 6 months

I have never had to make a decision about whether to spay. Pyometra and mammary cancer would be of concern to me. I would certainly wait until the bitch was mature.

None of my neutered/spay dogs suffered from obesity.

Why not get a male and leave entire? Life would be so much simpler

https://ivcjournal.com/spay-neuter-considerations/?fbclid=IwAR3Xp2FR288DrK7-20wV16dl-HCOJsjCVupwJ29F9oGfvWO92dZYcz04f9I

 

[Aru]

Sadly those indoctrinated to pay large amounts of money for convenience still will so nothing will change that until vets are not making the bulk of their money from spay/neutering dogs.

I reckon I'd make a lot more money if I recommended leaving all female dogs entire for life...and then just charge an appropriate amount for pyos and mammary mass removal surgeries. Both those surgeries are significantly more expensive then speys as it is.
Mammary mass are the most common type of cancer in entire female dogs and they are easy to see so hard for people to miss and ignore...and with pyo the 23 percent risk for females ..thats close enough to 1 in 4...and its an emergency so most people wont be able to price check as easily as with a spey. I reckon I could still make a massive profit without speys as it happens....but then of course theres a higher risk of the dog dying due to finances as well as illness because people often cannot afford the real cost of abdominal surgeries when they arent charged out like a spey which is a loss leade(set price and priced quite low to encouage uptake) for most practices...and losing patients to preventable diseases is a bit of a downer.

Preventative medicine is designed to reduce the risk of issues not cause them so we can make money...otherwise I'd also advise against vaccinating puppies- parvo=expensive to treat, distempers less good profit wise given the death rate but hey if we try and treat again should make more of a profit versus the vaccine costs..and both cause outbreaks so increase the customers coming in should make up for the deaths....plus if they are replacing the puppies that die we can repeat the pattern again...

Similarly where I am in Australia paralysis ticks are now preventable thanks to the Bravecto and other medicines in its class... Tick paralysis costs high hundreds to thousands to treat. Most usually survive if the owners can afford to treat them(the antivemon isn't mass produced as its a region specific issue so it costs a lot,some dogs also need oxygen or ventilation to survive the respiratory failure and require 24 hour care)...clearly I should stop recommending prevention there as well if I want to keep making money (its a risk versus benefit situation with the likes of nexgard/bravecto etc imo-here the benifit massively outweighs the risk)

This is all tongue in cheek of course!!!

I see enough preventable health conditions as it is without adding to it. I just find the vets recommend this purely to make money a bit tiring after a while...

dental healths another one that I could rant on about lol...yes full mouth extractions cost a lot more then a scale and polish...thats why we recommend dental care from puppyhood chew toys bones etc or at least cleaning the teeth before they are rotting out of the head and all need to be extracted...sigh.

We actually rarely do speys/castrates in my current practice as we are situated near a massive charity hospital that does discounted desexing.....and yet my recommendation is still desex the females because I genuinely think it will benefit enough dogs to make it worth it....and thats without going into the breeding/population side of things.

The main issue people tend to have with vets is always going to be cost though. That's the issue with the industry...with small animal especially though equine is also swinging the same way its now service industry for a disposable/luxury product (pets)
Vets are small business but providing good quality medical care is expensive and its rising more and more as more conditions become treatable and as diagnostic and surgical options in particular becomes more advanced and specialist. I dont see costs going down....its an interesting time to be in the industry though as its already changing to a multi tier system of care....plus now that the corporations are on board and buying out all the private practices I think the entire industry will be close to unrecognisable in 10 to 15 years.

Ps sorry if slight derail can delete these musings for another thread if needed.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I can only think that you must see some dogs with incredibly poor diets. Our dogs' teeth have been complimented by different vets - they don't eat RAW, they don't get regular bones and they have never had a scale and polish. Maybe that's another benefit of being entire

 

[Aru]

I can only think that you must see some dogs with incredibly poor diets. Our dogs' teeth have been complimented by different vets - they don't eat RAW, they don't get regular bones and they have never had a scale and polish. Maybe that's another benefit of being entire

Not nessecarily. Genetics and size also has a lot to blame over diet imo. Different breeds have different dental disease risks. I have never had to do full mouth extractions on the likes of a staffy no matter what they are fed....I actually very rarely do dentals in larger breeds of dogs except greyhounds as it happens. Bigger the jaw and teeth the futher the gingivitis has to go to affect the tooth root to need extractions.
But yorkies pomeranians maltese poodles and all the various poo and mixes of these.... tiny jawlines mean dental disease can cause issues quickly... Even when the owners are quite diligent with dental health. Its multifactorial but size matters. Entire or not isnt something I've noted thus far...
I did hear a hyppthesis that being anxcious and a mouth breather makes a difference as well lately...but I havent researched that yet.

 

[SAujla]

Replying to Sukhpreet's original post. Sorry, not answering your question of when to spay but just sharing my experience of spayed bitches, none of them were Labradors.

Of my 11 dogs, 7 have been bitches. They were all rescues so were spayed prior to adoption. Their ages ranged from 5 months to the current one who is 2 years.

Out of those 7, one suffered from spay incontinence and took Incurin throughout her life.

Another had an inverted (immature) vulva which, had she been allowed to have a season, may have come right. She needed bathing daily and barrier cream applying to prevent urine scalding and despite my best efforts frequently suffered from vulval infections and UTIs. She also ruptured a cruciate ligament.

One bitch died from a ruptured haemangiosarcoma - there is an increased incidence with spay/neuter. She had been recently spayed when I got her. Things didn't look right to me so I took her to my vet who needed to operate again, I was told she had a reaction to her internal sutures and these were replaced.

Another bitch developed a grade 3 mast cell tumour, again increased risk with spay/neuter.

One of the dogs (neutered before adoption) developed a grade 2 mast cell tumour, risk increased with spay/neuter.

Only one of my 4 males was entire - not a decision my vet was happy with but the dog suffered no ill effects from keeping his testes. It is easy enough to check for testicular cancer and I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

In this area vets are recommending castration at 6 months

I have never had to make a decision about whether to spay. Pyometra and mammary cancer would be of concern to me. I would certainly wait until the bitch was mature.

None of my neutered/spay dogs suffered from obesity.

Why not get a male and leave entire? Life would be so much simpler

https://ivcjournal.com/spay-neuter-considerations/?fbclid=IwAR3Xp2FR288DrK7-20wV16dl-HCOJsjCVupwJ29F9oGfvWO92dZYcz04f9I

It's common practice for rescues to spay or neuter isn't it? I guess they can't take the risk with so many dogs around. It's admirable that you have adopted many rescues and it's something I considered but ultimately I wish to get a puppy young and learn all about it.

Regarding male or female it's personal preference/reasons and I will be calling her Clover which suits a female better I think. Although that is definitely not a reason to get a female before anyone says, choosing the sex of a dog because a name suits it better is not what I'm doing its just an added thought.

 

[skinnydipper]

It's common practice for rescues to spay or neuter isn't it? I guess they can't take the risk with so many dogs around. It's admirable that you have adopted many rescues and it's something I considered but ultimately I wish to get a puppy young and learn all about it.

Regarding male or female it's personal preference/reasons and I will be calling her Clover which suits a female better I think. Although that is definitely not a reason to get a female before anyone says, choosing the sex of a dog because a name suits it better is not what I'm doing its just an added thought.

Yes, rescues spay/neuter before rehoming or if the dog is clearly too young it is necessary to sign a contract to say you will do so.

I wish you the very best with Clover and hope you have many happy years together.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Not nessecarily. Genetics and size also has a lot to blame over diet imo. Different breeds have different dental disease risks. I have never had to do full mouth extractions on the likes of a staffy no matter what they are fed....I actually very rarely do dentals in larger breeds of dogs except greyhounds as it happens. Bigger the jaw and teeth the futher the gingivitis has to go to affect the tooth root to need extractions.
But yorkies pomeranians maltese poodles and all the various poo and mixes of these.... tiny jawlines mean dental disease can cause issues quickly... Even when the owners are quite diligent with dental health. Its multifactorial but size matters. Entire or not isnt something I've noted thus far...
I did hear a hyppthesis that being anxcious and a mouth breather makes a difference as well lately...but I havent researched that yet.

So you have changed your stance somewhat since the post that I replied to?

We have had JRT's (pretty small, vet complimented), Labs, Rotters (extra large, vet complimented), BC, GSDx, LabX. I think it is probably pretty obvious that the 'squashed nose' breeds will have problems around their jaws. We don't have them and I wouldn't have a 'poo' given as they all seem to have a wide variety of problems. I do know a lovely Staffy who has a number of problems but they are all attributable to her early life, poor girl.

 

[Aru]

So you have changed your stance somewhat since the post that I replied to?

We have had JRT's (pretty small, vet complimented), Labs, Rotters (extra large, vet complimented), BC, GSDx, LabX. I think it is probably pretty obvious that the 'squashed nose' breeds will have problems around their jaws. We don't have them and I wouldn't have a 'poo' given as they all seem to have a wide variety of problems. I do know a lovely Staffy who has a number of problems but they are all attributable to her early life, poor girl.

I'm not fully understanding what you mean ...Which stance are you saying I have I changed on? The dental health rant?

 

[dree]

Did you read the article? The author is promoting it as part of a pre-med!

Yes, I read it. It has pros and cons.....and this is a quote from the site which makes it unacceptable for me and my dogs.

"Acepromazine is tried and true. We’re comfortable with it. And for some reason, switching from ace to something else––even while all the research tells us it’s safer––is a stressful process for all practitioners. Knowing the ins and outs of how our favorite drug works means more safety in the short run...even though we know better choices are available when it comes to achieving a quiet animal."

ACP (or ACE) makes some dogs more sound sensitive. So I ask myself.....your dog is given a sedative which makes it more sensitive to everything that is happening around it. That is not a good experience. A friend of mind (whom I have no reason to disbelieve) told me that her grandmother had an op, and was given ACP. Her grandmother told her that although she was heavily sedated and couldn't move, she was aware of everything that was going on....could here the surgeon speaking, etc. Not an experience I would wish on anyone....or on any of my dogs.

 

[skinnydipper]

This thread seems to have gone off topic but my two penneth on ACP.

For years it was prescribed by vets for noise phobia - I am thinking of fireworks specifically. It renders the dog unable to move but does nothing to lessen the terror, the dog can still hear and see everything. Imagine being locked in a nightmare with no possibility of escape or ability to seek comfort.

It was prescribed some years ago for a dog belonging to a member of my family. The dog had previously eaten a plasterboard wall and dislodged a toilet trying to get behind it during fireworks. He experienced the same horrific feelings of terror when on treatment, the only difference being that he couldn't move. It has haunted the owner since she learned of the dark side of ACP when used in this way, she gave it thinking she was helping the poor dog.

I am unable to comment on its use otherwise.

 

[dree]

This thread seems to have gone off topic but my two penneth on ACP.

For years it was prescribed by vets for noise phobia - I am thinking of fireworks specifically. It renders the dog unable to move but does nothing to lessen the terror, the dog can still hear and see everything. Imagine being locked in a nightmare with no possibility of escape.

It was prescribed for a dog belonging to a member of my family. The dog had previously eaten a plasterboard wall and dislodged a toilet trying to get behind it during fireworks. He experienced the same horrific feelings of terror when on treatment, the only difference being that he couldn't move. It has haunted the owner since she learned of the dark side of ACP when used in this way, she gave it thinking she was helping the poor dog.

I am unable to comment on its use otherwise.

This is partly why I dislike it so much. Poor dogs. I personally use cbd oil for fear.

 

[rara007]

It’s not given alone as part of a premed. It’s very outdated to use it as a behavioural modification and you’ll struggle to get it from a small animal vet for that purpose these days (ACP tablets have been discontinued). But we’re talking as part of a general anaesthetic premed for neutering young dogs here! Along side an opioid in general, and sometimes even an alpha2. What would you use for premedication? Or do you have all of yours given ‘straight’ propofol? For stressy dogs that’s not really a sensible option, the dose you need to intubate them gives them severe respiratory depression. It’s pretty useful even when mixing with newer drugs to help keep the blood pressure too ie. for sedating distressed euthanasia’s where you don’t want to lose all the IV access points.

ps. It’s not used in human anaesthetics

 

[CorvusCorax]

That does feel like the summary I've got too, allowing for extra pros and cons in individual cases, with the risks of waiting I can actively do something about one of them in the unwanted pregnancy, thats on me if it happens so its in my control at least.

Yet again, one of your threads has gone a bit....freestyle...and you've reacted with good grace and measure!!
I'm sure Clover will have one of the most heavily advised new owners on the planet
In all seriousness, your pragmatism is to be applauded and you sound like you will be a very sensible and responsible dog owner.

 

[windand rain]

To be honest everyone should be able to take or leave advice if the pup is happy and healthy with a loving owner the rest is a bit of personal choice and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am sure clover will have that and I wish her a long and happy life what ever decisions are made for her

 

[SAujla]

Yet again, one of your threads has gone a bit....freestyle...and you've reacted with good grace and measure!!
I'm sure Clover will have one of the most heavily advised new owners on the planet
In all seriousness, your pragmatism is to be applauded and you sound like you will be a very sensible and responsible dog owner.

My questions are maybe a bit generic so maybe they invite differing answers which is ideal, more responses the better and I have no ownership over the thread so I've no problem with how people answer. Its free advice I'm getting which is brilliant, I don't know why more people don't do it.

Its been very eye-opening I had no idea how ignorant I was about dogs. I had no idea about things like puppy socialising, whether to spay, dog diets etc before when I wasn't going to get a dog and just liked watching the videos!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Many others would have run away screaming 😂😂😂

 

[{97702}]

Many others would have run away screaming 😂😂😂

I did 😏

 

[Aru]

My questions are maybe a bit generic so maybe they invite differing answers which is ideal, more responses the better and I have no ownership over the thread so I've no problem with how people answer. Its free advice I'm getting which is brilliant, I don't know why more people don't do it.

Its been very eye-opening I had no idea how ignorant I was about dogs. I had no idea about things like puppy socialising, whether to spay, dog diets etc before when I wasn't going to get a dog and just liked watching the videos!

I wish all owners would take the time to research before the puppy like you have. Would save a lot of heartache and issues.

Clovers is going to be a lucky girl.I look forward to hearing about your puppy trials and tribulations.
Puppys are hard work but its 100 percent worth it in the end
Sorry to be derailing your thread somewhat...but thats the great thing about AADs, everyone chosing to post here in their free time are passionate about their love of dogs we may not always agree abiut everything(variety is the spice of life lol) but theres no doubt its a forum of dog lovers