When will employers come into the 21st century?

[ponymum]

I saw a post on Facebook a couple of days ago for an advert for a yard manager:

"EXCITING JOB OPPORTUNITY WITH HORSES... We are currently recruiting for a client: If you are interested in the following opportunity, please contact us:
HEAD GROOM / YARD MANAGER
Competition Yard between *******
SALARY
Negotiable dependent on experience/ability but in the range £17,000 to £20,000 pa
THE OPPORTUNITY
XXXXX is currently recruiting on behalf of a client for a Head Groom / Yard Manager for their busy home competition yard in the Lincolnshire Wolds. This is an exciting opportunity for someone with excellent horsemanship skills, confidence and knowledge of working in a leadership capacity on a professional yard, and a desire to become part of a fabulous team who are passionate and meticulous about the equines in their charge. For the right person there will be opportunity to travel to competitions and develop the role.
THE ROLE
To lead a team of grooms in the smooth running of the yard. The duties will include, but are not limited to:
 All aspects of the care of competition horses including stable duties
 Exercising the horses using the walker, Pessoa training aids, long lining and lunging
 Riding the horses both in the school and out hacking (not essential but is desirable)
 Organising the team and managing rotas to ensure adequate staff cover at all times
 Be responsible for running the yard when the owners are away travelling
 Managing stock of feed and bedding etc.
 Ensuring that tack and other equipment is kept clean and in good working order
THE HOURS
The position is full time and the hours are five days a week (start times can be discussed with owners who are flexible). The two days off will be consecutive days. You will be expected to work one day at the weekend (on a rotational shift with other team members).
THE IDEAL CANDIDATE
You will ideally:
 Be self-employed and willing to work on this basis, with your own insurance cover
 Have a mature and professional attitude to work
 Be reliable, hard-working and flexible to the changing needs of the business during busy periods.
 Have excellent knowledge of horses with ability to recognise and confidently deal with minor cuts and scrapes, dressings, etc.
 Be a competent and confident rider at a level that you can school the horses (leg yielding etc).
 Be extremely tidy with high standards of work.
In return the yard owners will offer the right candidate an excellent working environment where you will be handing eight large, beautiful, well behaved horses in a stunning location with facilities that are second to none. There will be a one-month probationary period."

I commented that this job does not fulfil the criteria for being self-employed. The post was removed but has also been posted on other groups.
When will people realise that this kind of "contract" is illegal?
I see lots of comments about yards not being able to find good, hard-working staff and that it's nigh on impossible to make a profit, but don't do it by treating your staff like dirt!
You pay peanuts - you get monkeys!!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

£18k a year works out at £8.65 an hour. 20k is £9.62 an hour, working out on 40 hours a week which is very likely in an equestrian job.

When WILL the equine industry get into the 20th century let alone the 21st!
Potential employees could be far better off at a local supermarket in the warm and dry......

 

[paddy555]

I commented that this job does not fulfil the criteria for being self-employed.

You pay peanuts - you get monkeys!!

and in this case it will be most definitely an EMPLOYED monkey

 

[Bernster]

Wow, expecting a lot, paying bugger all for it.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Who is to blame for the low wages ? Owners want the cheapest full livery and that's not feasible when yards pay their staff a decent wage.
Full livery with exercise and hunter livery, including prep, bathing, plaiting etc, etc, locally, is around £130 per week. I've yet to hear anyone demanding the price should be increased.
I'd like to see grooms rewarded for their hard work and professionalism, but the blame lies with horse owners who want the services as cheaply as possible.

 

[Bernster]

Well, yes, that’s market dynamics. Maybe I’m in a minority and yes it’s a chunk of money but I don’t begrudge livery costs as it’s not an easy job or industry. I’m hugely grateful to those who look after my horses and appreciate the hard work and long hours

If I haven’t said that enough Aus, then I should have 😊

 

[be positive]

Well, yes, that’s market dynamics. Maybe I’m in a minority and yes it’s a chunk of money but I don’t begrudge livery costs as it’s not an easy job or industry. I’m hugely grateful to those who look after my horses and appreciate the hard work and long hours

If I haven’t said that enough Aus, then I should have 😊

I think you are in the minority but the ad in the OP reads as if it is for a private competition yard not livery so it is rather irrelevant, they want to 'employ' a full time YM without the expenses involved with employing them, the job is full time so what they are doing is illegal and if an agency is involved they should not be acting for clients who are trying to avoid the employment laws and get their hobby subsidised, they say it is a pro yard but with only 8 horses it is unlikely to be running as a proper business, although it helps if they are cutting corners.

 

[Rowreach]

I think you are in the minority but the ad in the OP reads as if it is for a private competition yard not livery so it is rather irrelevant, they want to 'employ' a full time YM without the expenses involved with employing them, the job is full time so what they are doing is illegal and if an agency is involved they should not be acting for clients who are trying to avoid the employment laws and get their hobby subsidised, they say it is a pro yard but with only 8 horses it is unlikely to be running as a proper business, although it helps if they are cutting corners.

Exactly, the salary is neither here nor there if they are flying in the face of employment legislation.

However it raises the conundrum of how equestrian businesses can continue to function if they are paying realistic salaries, pension contributions, being properly insured, paying business rates etc etc and clients don't "come into the 21st century" and start paying realistic livery charges.

 

[be positive]

Exactly, the salary is neither here nor there if they are flying in the face of employment legislation.

However it raises the conundrum of how equestrian businesses can continue to function if they are paying realistic salaries, pension contributions, being properly insured, paying business rates etc etc and clients don't "come into the 21st century" and start paying realistic livery charges.

Apart from the racing industry the equine world is going to struggle to catch up if owners will not or cannot pay realistic prices, I really do not know how many yards keep going and suspect most are subsidised by an outside income which means most are subsidising their clients hobby to keep going.

 

[dogatemysalad]

The dog kennel industry is more of a scandal. Kennel workers earn even less while the cost of putting a dog into kennels is higher than paying full livery for a horse.

 

[Bernster]

MIght has been confusing folks but I was responding to the post above my reply, not directly to the OP. But yes there is the separate point about employment status. I know my yard does employ and meets these costs, as whenever those costs go up, so does the bill.

 

[EllenJay]

Why is being self employed in this position illegal? Genuine question. Thanks

 

[ponymum]

Why is being self employed in this position illegal? Genuine question. Thanks

It's a way of avoiding paying the correct amount of tax and national insurance as these are different for employees and self-employed. Also an employer now has to provide a pension, pay holiday etc. An employee has more rights than a self-employed contractor. There are certain "tests" that a position has to meet to be deemed self-employed: one of these is that you can set your own hours, or even send someone else to do the job in your place if you want to. You would also have the ability to work for more than one employer.
Unfortunately, some unscrupulous employers force their staff to be self-employed but HMRC are clamping down.

 

[EllenJay]

But that isn't illegal. If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical. But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?

 

[milliepops]

Apart from the racing industry the equine world is going to struggle to catch up if owners will not or cannot pay realistic prices, I really do not know how many yards keep going and suspect most are subsidised by an outside income which means most are subsidising their clients hobby to keep going.

Many yards I've been on have started up taking DIYs to subsidise the YO's hobby Until the one I'm on now, I've never been on a yard where the YO's sole income was from their liveries.

tbf it's shown in the standard of the places. I'm just about teetering on not being able to afford 2 boxes where I am now because it's more than double what I paid before but it's run very well and I never have any concerns about the horses. Low prices have enabled me to me more than a one horse owner but I totally accept that it is not a proper business model.

 

[ihatework]

But that isn't illegal. If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical. But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?

A self employed person could indeed take the role, they could opt to work outside IR35 if the ‘employers’ working conditions allowed this, or they could run it inside IR35.

However no-one semi literate in employment law would take a job advertised in the 8.50-9.50ph as self employed, sheer lunacy and would leave them completely unprotected. The employers here are pulling a fast one.

 

[Rowreach]

A self employed person could indeed take the role, they could opt to work outside IR35 if the ‘employers’ working conditions allowed this, or they could run it inside IR35.

However no-one semi literate in employment law would take a job advertised in the 8.50-9.50ph as self employed, sheer lunacy and would leave them completely unprotected. The employers here are pulling a fast one.

Also, a "self employed person" would not get away with making a tax return showing only one "employer".

 

[ihatework]

Also, a "self employed person" would not get away with making a tax return showing only one "employer".

That’s debatable depending on the circumstances, they certainly could if they declared it inside IR35, but the way this advert is written it is pretty much employment in this case.

It’ll be a moot point come April when some employers are in for a shock!

 

[dixie]

IR35 is for personal service companies only, not sole traders.
However sole traders need to meet the "Badges of Trade" and by only working for one person and their hours, with their tools then they are not classed as self employed, they should be under PAYE.
The "employee" is dipping out from holiday pay, sick pay, pensions etc etc
The employer is currently gaining by not paying the above plus employers NI unless they have an investigation and then they will end up coughing the tax and NI anyway and probably with interest and penalties.
Whether they will ever be caught is another matter though.

 

[Goldenstar]

I use self employed grooms .
There’s a huge difference is they are self employed they choose if they want to work when I need them if they don’t I either do it myself or ask someone else .
They all work for other people in a variety of roles .
They are also not working many hours a week for me .
Often jobs like this can be an attempt to NI contributions

 

[paddy555]

unless they have an investigation and then they will end up coughing the tax and NI anyway and probably with interest and penalties.
Whether they will ever be caught is another matter though.

the follow on of course from that is if they are failing to operate PAYE what else are they doing. Might be a good idea to have at look at their business account just to make sure no problems in that area.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

But that isn't illegal. If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical. But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?

It is illegal for the employer to advertise this f/t job as self-employment, it is f/t for the one employer

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Full livery with exercise and hunter livery, including prep, bathing, plaiting etc, etc, locally, is around £130 per week. I've yet to hear anyone demanding the price should be increased.

I know it depends on area but that sounds mad to me-near Watford in the late 80s full hunter livery was just below that-it included exercise but still, 30+ years ago!

I have posted this before but I remember a letter in H&H a very long time ago (i.e. decades), pointing out that only equestrianism would advertise a position that wanted the applicants to be skilful riding, handling, schooling, turning out and clipping expensive large beasts to a high standard, be able to work alone, work with young horses, drive an HGV, capable of looking after children and nannying kids and ponies for a pittance, and to be cheerful while doing it!

 

[McFluff]

Why is being self employed in this position illegal? Genuine question. Thanks

It is illegal in an employment law context because it would not pass the tests of employment. These are:

• Mutuality of obligation - I.e. does Either party have any obligation to either offer or accept hours
• Right of substitution - is personal service required or can the person send a suitably qualified substitute to work the hours
• Control - how much control is exerted during the provision of services, ie is the person told how to do a task

Whether there is consequence from a breach of employment law will depend on whether the job holder challenges the arrangement (usually happens over sick pay, holiday pay or maternity). It’s stressful taking an employer to tribunal so many people put up or move on. So employers like the one in the above advert get away with it.

The other risk that they will carry is a challenge from the inland revenue. Their tests are more likely to find employment than the ones above (the .gov website is good). The inland revenue are much more likely to Chase the employer. Their incentive is back payments of missed employer NI payments.

Any person can be employed and have self employed work. Anyone taking the above contract should be employed, even if they also have self employed work.

I’ve tried to give an overview - there is lots of case law to further refine the detail above.

 

[Rowreach]

I know it depends on area but that sounds mad to me-near Watford in the late 80s full hunter livery was just below that-it included exercise but still, 30+ years ago!

I have posted this before but I remember a letter in H&H a very long time ago (i.e. decades), pointing out that only equestrianism would advertise a position that wanted the applicants to be skilful riding, handling, schooling, turning out and clipping expensive large beasts to a high standard, be able to work alone, work with young horses, drive an HGV, capable of looking after children and nannying kids and ponies for a pittance, and to be cheerful while doing it!

I was charging £125 per week for full hunter livery in 2000, with extras on top of that, in the south of England. And even then it probably wasn’t enough.

 

[honetpot]

But that isn't illegal. If you are self employed you still have to pay tax and NI, it may be unethical in this case. The IR35 tests don't include anything about setting your own your hours. There is a clause about autonomy and substitution.

It is obvious in this particular case the prospective employer is trying to save costs, which as I said above is unethical. But what if someone is a freelance instructor, is already self employed, and can fit this work around their teaching. They could possibly fulfill all the IR35 rules and therefore be able to take up this role, along with their teaching commitments?

If you work in one place and your hours are set by the employer, you are not working at that job as self employed although you may registered as self employed. Why would anyone not to be paid by PAYE, with all the protection it gives in employment law.

I employ a freelance helper, her hours worked for me are based on her availability,I can not dictate her hours, and she works few weekly hours, so she is self employed.
I used to do a lot of agency work, some people used an umbrella company, this loophole has been closed.

 

[Yardbird]

To be self employed you set your pay rate and invoice for the work done.

 

[dominobrown]

I employ a part time employee. It is crippling to a small business. If she needs maternity I cannot afford to replace her, and I am unsure whether I would just have to shut the business.
I compelety agree that employment in the "horse world" needs to change, but its not exactly like YO are rolling about in wads of cash. I havent had a wage in 3 years now.
For me to take a wage, and employ someone full time, with slightly more than minimum wage livery prices would be to be at least double what they are.
Think the whole horse industry needs to wake up!

 

[ester]

What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.

 

[milliepops]

What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.

agreed, my yard is expensive for the area but has very long term clients so clearly people are prepared to pay for a good place. I wouldn't ever move to a yard and then *offer* to pay more than what the YO is asking though!!