When will employers come into the 21st century?

I think the base line for DIY is so low in most areas that to get the prices up would probably mean most would have a 100% increase and many owners would be forced to give up or look for cheaper and there will always be a place prepared to undercut.
A few years ago the owner of a local DIY yard had a meltdown and got rid of most of her liveries, just before that happened we met out riding and I asked her how it was going and what she charged I was shocked to find it was £18 per week, she has a decent yard, plenty of turn out but does restrict or stop in winter and no arena, at the time I was charging £40 for assisted DIY and still feel that is low, she has put the price up and is still busy but it is probably still lower than it should be.
Local full livery yards are now more realistic at around £175 per week for somewhere fairly smart but there are still very cheap options if you look around and are not fussy about facilities.
 
I think the thing is livery prices never change. I have been on one yard (out of about 8 or so over the years) where there was a price increase for the DIYs.

The place I was on before this was £25 a week 6 or 7 years ago when I first went there, and was still £25 a week last year.
At some point I expect it will become uneconomic and she will have to put prices up and it will be a shock (bit like when farriers finally put up prices and everyone moans!) but up to now the solution to propping the business up has been to add extra boxes and reduce the turnout available to existing clients.
 
DIY I think throws a bit of a spanner in the works of 'costing' as many are running it just because it means the cost of keeping their own is then zero'd and most don't have staff costs to cover. So there will often be people running it relatively cheap with good facilities because they want them for their own horses.
 
In England I had no problem charging a proper rate for the service and facilities I provided and increasing it when necessary in line with costs. That was 20 years ago. Over here I wouldn’t be able to charge anything like that rate today, people here would just go, they don’t seem to value good service, good facilities, good practice, they just want it to be cheap. And there’s beggar all customer loyalty either. I am SO glad I gave it up (and then had people expressing their amazement that I wasn’t available to take their horses when they needed me to 🙄).

The plain fact is that if livery yards were run as a proper business, paying proper wages, charging proper prices, then the average person wouldn’t be able to afford to keep a horse.
 
Clodagh said:
That's me! Worked with horses for years, got little recognition, carpal tunnel and sciatica. I now stack shelves, I don't smell, I'm not crippled and I'm no worse off financially.
Click to expand...

I’m still working outdoors, getting rained on, still doing early mornings and occasionally getting muddy, but I don’t smell anymore either 🙂
 
ester said:
What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.
Click to expand...

I've thought that for a while too. When I was looking for a new yard earlier this year I wasn't hugely price sensitive - but I did want decent all year round turnout. So many yards were over stocked in order to keep DIY at around £35 per week (South East) and had horses on tiny over-grazed paddocks.

It also means when the property developers come calling the land owners can't wait to sell up and make some decent money. Hard to argue with them really.

I feel very, very lucky to be on the yard I'm on now and have told both horses to polish their halos and behave.
 
This in spades.! It is always customers being blamed for yard owner's poor business decisions. I think yard owners are scared to put prices up to what is needed to run a business out of fear that most of the customer would leave and the yard owner would have to face the reality that their business was not a viable one! Which they would not want to do because as @milliepops points out a lot of them are running a yard in the first place as a way of subsidising their own hobby.

I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at £30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.

ester said:
What I don't understand then is why people don't put their livery prices up.... People have been talking about the real costs for years. It's like we need some sort of reset? It's always the customers not wanting to pay more that are blamed, but they are just paying what is asked. I don't think most people are negotiating that down.
Click to expand...
 
Firefly9410 said:
This in spades.! It is always customers being blamed for yard owner's poor business decisions. I think yard owners are scared to put prices up to what is needed to run a business out of fear that most of the customer would leave and the yard owner would have to face the reality that their business was not a viable one! Which they would not want to do because as @milliepops points out a lot of them are running a yard in the first place as a way of subsidising their own hobby.

I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at £30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.
Click to expand...

That reads as if you have a rather large chip on your shoulder ....

£600 a week is damn all when you have to pay mortgage, business rates, insurance, tax, wages, water charges, electricity, maintenance for stabling, fencing, land, arena, not to mention feed yourself, run a car, clothe your children and pay the gas bill. Not to mention put up with all the interesting human interactions that are part and parcel of being a YO and generally be working 24/7 ...

But hey, aren't we lucky to live in a nice house with a few stables and keep our own horse "free of charge" ... :eek:
 
Rowreach said:
That reads as if you have a rather large chip on your shoulder ....

£600 a week is damn all when you have to pay mortgage, business rates, insurance, tax, wages, water charges, electricity, maintenance for stabling, fencing, land, arena, not to mention feed yourself, run a car, clothe your children and pay the gas bill. Not to mention put up with all the interesting human interactions that are part and parcel of being a YO and generally be working 24/7 ...

But hey, aren't we lucky to live in a nice house with a few stables and keep our own horse "free of charge" ... :eek:
Click to expand...

That really was spoken with a true DIY mentality wasn’t it!

I admire anyone that can run a livery yard commercially and can make it pay and not have a mental breakdown in the process!
 
Firefly9410 said:
I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at £30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.
Click to expand...

Gosh! Farmer hatred in spades!
Of course, if they didn't have horses shitting everywhere, breaking things and destroying the fields they could go and do something else. (Not sure what exactly) that wouldn't involve dealing with the general public. Many people with horses at livery are certifiably nuts, in my experience. Nobody needs to keep your horse for you, you know, you choose to have him. Everyone wants well maintained paddocks, decent hay, plenty of storage.
 
You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn £600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
Rowreach said:
That reads as if you have a rather large chip on your shoulder ....

£600 a week is damn all when you have to pay mortgage, business rates, insurance, tax, wages, water charges, electricity, maintenance for stabling, fencing, land, arena, not to mention feed yourself, run a car, clothe your children and pay the gas bill. Not to mention put up with all the interesting human interactions that are part and parcel of being a YO and generally be working 24/7 ...

But hey, aren't we lucky to live in a nice house with a few stables and keep our own horse "free of charge" ... :eek:
Click to expand...
 
Its the maintenance costs people don't see and insurance where my money goes. Even to have DIYs (also have full) one DIY with 2 horses basically just about covers the insurance bill.
Then there are things like getting rid of the muckheap... contractors where costing about £700 a year to dispose of it. Now we have tractors, muck spreaders, more land, sheep, harrows, rollers, toppers. Do you have a clue how much these cost? Post knockers to do fencing....
General maintenance then yard improvements. I could also do with a quad and a new harrow for the arena.
Buy all that and tell me how much change ypu have from £20k.
Does anyone know how much a post and rail fence costs, or new arena surface, or 100 bales of hay?!
 
Firefly9410 said:
You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn £600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
Click to expand...

No one is earning £600 a week... take all the costs off and then god forbid the YO may want a small salary also?
 
The thing is I think lots of us do know how much these things cost. In fact it always feels a bit patronising when it's suggested liveries don't. ergo 'they just don't know the cost of things that's why they won't pay a sustainable rate' see previous note about paying what is charged.
 
dominobrown said:
Its the maintenance costs people don't see and insurance where my money goes. Even to have DIYs (also have full) one DIY with 2 horses basically just about covers the insurance bill.
Then there are things like getting rid of the muckheap... contractors where costing about £700 a year to dispose of it. Now we have tractors, muck spreaders, more land, sheep, harrows, rollers, toppers. Do you have a clue how much these cost? Post knockers to do fencing....
General maintenance then yard improvements. I could also do with a quad and a new harrow for the arena.
Buy all that and tell me how much change ypu have from £20k.
Does anyone know how much a post and rail fence costs, or new arena surface, or 100 bales of hay?!
Click to expand...

Man down the road had his long, narrow 10 acres fenced with post and rail and stock netting to keep dogs out and it cost £7000. Many people have absolutely no idea of the costs.
 
ester said:
The thing is I think lots of us do know how much these things cost. In fact it always feels a bit patronising when it's suggested liveries don't. ergo 'they just don't know the cost of things that's why they won't pay a sustainable rate' see previous note about paying what is charged.
Click to expand...

But you look at Firefly and she just thinks people who live in big houses should keep other peoples horses at a subsidised rate. So, either she has no idea or she doesn't care. Perhaps she is not representative of the general horse owning public but of the many I have met over the years most think the yard should look like Carl Hester's pad and cost £100 for full livery.
 
ester said:
The thing is I think lots of us do know how much these things cost. In fact it always feels a bit patronising when it's suggested liveries don't. ergo 'they just don't know the cost of things that's why they won't pay a sustainable rate' see previous note about paying what is charged.
Click to expand...
Oh I know a lot of liveries do. Milliepops mentioned that her yard is more expensive but well maintained etc so a lot of liveries do cotton on that the £20 a week diy yard is rough as hell. Problem is those who are subdised... lady down the road from me charges £80 a week for breaking and schooling!!

Also my quote function isnt working properly.
 
ester said:
I think the 'subsidised' ones make it tricky, ie some yard owners will be mortgage free with other good sources of income so can run a small yard without some of the costs that those who still have to cover that side have.
Click to expand...

That is true, and lucky is the livery person who has their horse in one.
 
And farmers and yard owners have the right to do another job if they wish. If they choose farming or yard owning then bitch about their clients I have no sympathy. Nobody is forced to run livery like I said go do something else if livery makes them miserable or put prices up if want to earn more. Either clients stay because they like yard and can afford new price and yard owner happy with increases price or clients leave because unhappy or cannot afford it and business fails then yard owner finds new job and is hopefully happier. No hatred for farmers from me only annoyed with people who are really not hard done by at all complaining that they are. We all make our choices in life. Some people have more choices or better choices available than others. I choose to keep a horse on basic livery with pleasant yard owners cost is not the main factor. If cost is low I expect and happy to maintain fence weeds leaks and that also storage for feed bin x2 rug rail in stable few bales hay happy to source weekly. Not everyone is unreasonable. If nutty livery clients get you down change your life not bitch and moan and make clients feel unwelcome like what happens on some yards.
Clodagh said:
Gosh! Farmer hatred in spades!
Of course, if they didn't have horses shitting everywhere, breaking things and destroying the fields they could go and do something else. (Not sure what exactly) that wouldn't involve dealing with the general public. Many people with horses at livery are certifiably nuts, in my experience. Nobody needs to keep your horse for you, you know, you choose to have him. Everyone wants well maintained paddocks, decent hay, plenty of storage.
Click to expand...
 
well the other thing about where mine are now, is he's not afraid of having a couple of empty boxes. The long term clients aren't about to up and leave so having a few empty stables isn't the difference between a viable business and going under.
It's not perfect but it's a yard that does stand out above the other local offerings, both in terms of having a sane and sensible YO, no yard politics and good tidy facilities.

There will always be the ones operating at the bottom end of the market and I understand that pricing realistically to run a good service would put ownership outside the reach of many people who scrape along at those really budget yards.

As a YO I think you have to make a decision which way to go though rather than trying to please everyone. A smaller number of happy clients has got to be less stress than double the number who are butting heads half the time. But it's a long term game to build up a business like that. Tricky to pull off these days.

FWIW I do understand the costs, I have field kept horses that we look after entirely with all the maintenance that involves and OH does a fair bit of contract type work for local yards so I see both sides of it.
 
And they are gerting a salary and it is being spent on the bills of everyday life like what happens to everyone. If you break even with livery fees versus business and life expenses but you live in a big house with land in beautiful surrounding and 4 horses and get to choose your working hours because you are the boss , then you are doing better than someone who breaks even wages versus expenses and lives in a one bedroom flat in a scummy block in a rough part of town with no horse and works the hours their employer chooses. See what you have. Appreciate it. That is the point I am saying.
dominobrown said:
No one is earning £600 a week... take all the costs off and then god forbid the YO may want a small salary also?
Click to expand...
 
Firefly9410 said:
You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn £600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
Click to expand...

But you don't see the difference in going out to a job and earning £600 (or whatever amount you want to put in there), which is earnings that you can allocate whatever way you want to or need to, and having a £600 income from liveries (for example) with which you have to run your business as well as having to live off it.

Again, your post just sounds like you resent anyone who you consider "privileged".
 
No Row reach I onyl resent the ones who are bitching about being hard done by and using that as an excuse to rip off their employees like the advert in the original post.Or the ones who use their unhappiness at their lives as an excuse to act in a bad manner to their customers.
 
Firefly9410 said:
Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business.
Click to expand...

Firefly9410 said:
No Row reach I onyl resent the ones who are bitching about being hard done by and using that as an excuse to rip off their employees like the advert in the original post.Or the ones who use their unhappiness at their lives as an excuse to act in a bad manner to their customers.
Click to expand...

Why resent anyone? Each to their own. If you don't like people like that, don't keep your horse there and don't go to work for them.
 
@Rowreach. Because I care about other people! An industry you can only work in it if you tolerate being ripped off. That is not right so I stand up and say so. And nobody wants to move to what they think is a nice yard only to discover that the yard owner is not happy with their own prices or their lives and takes it out on the liveries. Not nice for the liveries or their horses who have to then move home again . Would gladly never keep my horse at such a yard as I suspect would many others. Maybe yard owners could help with that be more honest say at viewing yes I want your money no I do not want liveries really though. Never going to happen is it so yes I resent the existence of those people.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top