When will employers come into the 21st century?

Clodagh said:
Oh God, same here. I rang her once to say her horse had colic, and explained what I had done so far, she said 'Oh that's great, call me if it gets any worse?' that was at 10pm.
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My horse had colic once where I was paying around £700 a month livery. Firstly she didn’t recognise colic and secondly she left me to it and wouldn’t even do a late night check. I lived 20 miles away at the time so I sat in my car on my own in the dark on an empty yard until I could be sure that he was ok.

I think we can all point to people who are unreasonable.
 
Sussexbythesea said:
I think we can all point to people who are unreasonable.
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definitely.

Horse on our yard colicked recently and owner also did the "call me if it gets worse" thing but she's a total novice and possibly didn't realise what she was saying. Fortunately YO is very hands on.

I had a call from a yard once saying my horse was colicking so they had called the vet (great, that's what I would hope for and the agreement I had with them). It was a 30 min drive so I shot out of work and headed over, to find a very very excited, shaking sweaty horse listening to the hounds, several hills away :p YO was a bit sheepish but I was happy that they had taken action even if they hadn't realised my silly horse was just hunting mad ;)
 
Whereas the yard I have just moved from (housing developers bought it) had 2 fatal colics while I was there. Both elderly horses and in each instance the yard staff went above and beyond. Not only did they spot the colic, stay with the horse, call the vet, support the owner, be with the horse when it was PTS but also arranged for the removal - with tears flooding down their face and knowing full well that however bad they were feeling the owner was a million times worse.

There are always going to be yards and YO which aren't great, but let's not tar them all with the same brush!

And like MP I'd rather pay the call out charge for the false alarm than be the one in tears because the vet came too late.
 
Firefly9410 said:
You are not living in the real world then. Lots of people will never be able to earn £600 per week at any point in their lives. That is reality. And everyone has either mortgage or rent and bills to pay. Some people's is less because they live in a tiny home. Lots of people have children too including low earners. I have a problem with people who are living in some degree of privilege who are not only scraping by without any luxuries like lots of people do and they are not recognising the privilege of their situation regardless of whether inherited or worked for and instead complain of being skint whilst putting their staff into real poverty by not paying properly or providing employees rights.
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This is why I will never ever have livery .
Just imagine having someone with mentality at your home every day .
 
Goldenstar said:
This is why I will never ever have livery .
Just imagine having someone with mentality at your home every day .
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Isn't this part of the problem though? You see it as your home and she sees it as a business?

I see it from both sides. I have had horses on DIY and had my own land where I have had to do everything myself. I also have lodgers. I understand how much everything costs and how annoying demanding clients are.

But it does frustrate me immensely when I see comments along the lines of DIYers wont pay what it is worth. It is your business, charge what you need to!! I wouldn't have a lodger and charge them less than what would make it worth while. I would rather have an empty room! I have also had to tell lodgers to leave when they don't fit in or get too demanding or don't follow the rules. It isn't hard.
 
I get what you are saying abb123 -
Anyone that takes money for a service (eg Livery) can’t realistically expect it to be money for nothing - there will always be an element of defining the deal and managing the deal. No one is forcing someone to offer livery, if you don’t want to manage a livery yard don’t offer it (it really is that simple). If however you do offer it, then you need to work out how much you need to charge to make it pay and be worth the ‘hassle’, which there will be some.
If you choose to go that route then you only have yourself to blame if you under charge and mismanage. If liveries won’t pay what you need then you don’t have a viable business and should look elsewhere for employment.
 
Why is Firefly being given a hard time for getting annoyed about the kind of bad livery owners which other people start whole threads about? S/he isn't criticising all liveries, just the ones who moan to their liveries about their own lot while clearly having a decent lifestyle and paying their staff a pittance, this last being what the thread was about in the first place.



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ycbm said:
Why is Firefly being given a hard time for getting annoyed about the kind of bad livery owners which other people start whole threads about? S/he isn't criticising all liveries, just the ones who moan to their liveries about their own lot while clearly having a decent lifestyle and paying their staff a pittance, this last being what the thread was about in the first place.



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Probably because she didn’t actually clarify that point until about her fifth post, and her first few posts were rants about over privileged people living in nice big houses with stables and land?
 
Oh I missed this earlier clodah. No I absolutely do not think livery yards (whatever size house they live in) should keep people's horses at subsidised rates. I have never said that.
Clodagh said:
But you look at Firefly and she just thinks people who live in big houses should keep other peoples horses at a subsidised rate. So, either she has no idea or she doesn't care. Perhaps she is not representative of the general horse owning public but of the many I have met over the years most think the yard should look like Carl Hester's pad and cost £100 for full livery.
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No that is just what you chose to see. Like when you quoted one of my posts with part of a sentence bolded out as if the rest of the sentence which put the comment in context did not exist. I have no problem whatsoever with people living in big houses with land and I never did. Have a problem with some of those people for their aattitude and the misery they spread throughout others lives, but not for where they live. I think my posts were clear enough to anyone who wanted to actually read them.

Really quite shocked at how much it has needed spelling out to some people that if they have a business it will need managing and that manager is them and also that people can view themselves as hard up just because they do not have spare cash left atr the end of the month (having spent it all on whatever they needed or chose to). Sad for people to be so unhappy when they have so much but just cannot see it.
Rowreach said:
Probably because she didn’t actually clarify that point until about her fifth post, and her first few posts were rants about over privileged people living in nice big houses with stables and land?
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Rowreach said:
Probably because she didn’t actually clarify that point until about her fifth post, and her first few posts were rants about over privileged people living in nice big houses with stables and land?
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Not so. This is her first post, my bolding, agreeing with the person who started the thread that yard owners often don't pay staff well.

Firefly9410 said:
I get annoyed too about yard owners farmers etc claiming skint whilst forgetting the detached house they live in with land and all the horses they own which they are not paying livery for. A 20box DIY yard at £30 a week each is a lot of money. It is more than minimum wage even factoring expenses and time if yard owner spent 9-5 working on yard maintenance and paperwork which I am fairly sure they do not. The yard owner is not skint exactly they have just spent their money is all! If they had a regular job likely they would feel just as skint after bills like most people do. Only they could not afford a big detached house and pay livery for multiple horses with a regular job. So all the Too Skint To Pay Employee Properly gets to me. Either shut up moaning pay staff properly and be grateful customers fund their lifestyle of big house land and horses or charge what they think is necessary for proper business. Plenty people can genuinely afford a horse if livery goes up and would be pleases at proper maintenance and customer service. Not treated like a nuisance like livery clients sometimes are.
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I think that is nothing in general to do with people owning big farms and land, they usually have accountants and are well aware of employment law and they are added to the payroll.
Everyone wants cheap livery but very few want to pay the real rate for the facilities and labour. How many people actually make a living from these yards, and then when they employ people why on earth would they pay the NMW and give their employment rights, because they are not making any money, or they are totally unaware of their responsibilities?
Does your yard even have an a valid insurance certificate displayed? I have only seen them in large establishments.
 
honetpot said:
I think that is nothing in general to do with people owning big farms and land, they usually have accountants and are well aware of employment law and they are added to the payroll.
Everyone wants cheap livery but very few want to pay the real rate for the facilities and labour. How many people actually make a living from these yards, and then when they employ people why on earth would they pay the NMW and give their employment rights, because they are not making any money, or they are totally unaware of their responsibilities?
Does your yard even have an a valid insurance certificate displayed? I have only seen them in large establishments.
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I think the point here is that it isn't up to the client to demand that livery yard owners put their prices up so that they can pay what it should be.

Do you go into a shop and haggle up???

It is yard owners responsibility to charge an amount that makes it a viable business.

All DIY yards I have ever been on have had appropriate insurance.
 
honetpot said:
I think that is nothing in general to do with people owning big farms and land, they usually have accountants and are well aware of employment law and they are added to the payroll.
Everyone wants cheap livery but very few want to pay the real rate for the facilities and labour. How many people actually make a living from these yards, and then when they employ people why on earth would they pay the NMW and give their employment rights, because they are not making any money, or they are totally unaware of their responsibilities?
Does your yard even have an a valid insurance certificate displayed? I have only seen them in large establishments.
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A lot of people really can't afford to keep horses properly, so they seek out cheap Diy yards, that is the main problem. those yards are cheap for a reason.

I can assure you that when we moved here, the increase in our mortgage cost *A LOT* more than the livery costs for 4 horses on a well-maintained yard, with pretty good facilities in a reasonable hacking area. We certainly didn't move here to save money - and we had all our own maintenance to do on top of that. Many people underestimate the cost of running a livery yard and are not prepared to pay a realistic amount to keep their horse on one..
 
As a YO I feel I have to speak up. On the surface, I probably look as though I have a nice lifestyle, decent house etc. I pay my staff properly including workplace pensions etc but not a huge amount, sadly I can't afford to. My overheads are high - rates, insurance, utilities, feed and bedding, maintenance etc so the income generated by my yard is quickly swallowed up to the point that on an hourly rate my staff earn way more than I do.

I'm not moaning, my compensation is to able able to live where I do and keep my own horse but our living expenses are paid for buy by husband's earnings which are separate from the yard. I would love to pay my staff more, I genuinely appreciate their hard work but sadly my clients wouldn't pay more for livery etc so it's just not feasible, if I don't have clients there aren't jobs for the staff.

If livery yards etc put their prices up enough to be able to pay their staff more many people wouldn't be able to afford horses and in the short term it would create a welfare crisis for some horses and unemployment for many staff. I honestly don't know what the answer is but please don't think all yard owners have a great lifestyle, yes I live in pleasant surroundings but it's hard going at times and selling up can sometimes look very attractive as I'd have money in the bank and could afford to take holidays etc. The flip side would be horse owners with nowhere to go and redundant staff which I wouldn't like to be responsible for either. It really isn't as black and white as people like Firefly9410 think it is!
 
And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
 
Saw a fancy ad for a job today that basically said you have to work like mad to do the job in time and we will pay you 2
£25 per session
they wanted their new groom to arrive a 7am and work until 10am turnout, feed and muck out 7 stables make good the stables and fill hay nets water and make feeds for the night time. rural area so must have own transport
 
The thing is, the big houses and land with stabling did not just appear. These people did not just 'happen' to live in a big house, it all needed paying for initially. If they sold it, then they could get that money. No outgoings, no work, no hassle. Get the money and invest it.

Over the past 5 years, even with Brexit uncertainty, people can expect to get 5% annually back on savings that are invested in stocks and shares. So, whatever the facilities cost, there also needs to be a 5% of the value added in for the loss of that money. IMO, it is this sum that is not factored in by yard owners, if being run as a purely business model.

£600 a week is also not a wage at all once costs are taken out. Presumably the costs Firefly speaks of don't include the Tesco shopping, mobile phone, heating oil, petrol for personal car, clothes etc etc. along with the livery yard expenses. £600 a week may cover the costs of the actual yard, but that would not include household expenses.

I don't see the relevance of people with low waged jobs or loads of kids not being able to afford a posh house. Presumably they can't afford a posh car or exotic holidays either. It does not mean that people with a nice house/land have to subsidise those who don't.

I do agree that livery owners set their own prices and should price to what they think. When I did freelance teaching I set my rate at what I thought would make me feel good. Some 'better qualified' people charged less and thought I would have no clients, but I was good at what I offered, gave great value for money IMO, and never struggled to attract happy clients. I also stopped teaching anyone who I did not enjoy teaching. This kept me happy and fresh and better for the clients I did teach.

Our place (home) was once a livery yard and, in fact, still had a resident livery with 2 ponies when we purchased. The purchase was freehold, and when the old owners tried to pass the property over with the 2 ponies still here we were going to pull out. I was glad we stuck to our guns, when we moved in the stables were filthy, the fields trashed, litter all over. No way would I have a livery.

If I did have liveries I would price it so I didn't mind, and ask anyone who did not fit in to leave. If that did not work then TBH I would rather sell up, invest the money and pay a decent amount for a proper service. Round here that would be around £160 a week for a service where you would not have to visit every day.
 
Red-1 said:
The thing is, the big houses and land with stabling did not just appear. These people did not just 'happen' to live in a big house, it all needed paying for initially. If they sold it, then they could get that money. No outgoings, no work, no hassle. Get the money and invest it.

Over the past 5 years, even with Brexit uncertainty, people can expect to get 5% annually back on savings that are invested in stocks and shares. So, whatever the facilities cost, there also needs to be a 5% of the value added in for the loss of that money. IMO, it is this sum that is not factored in by yard owners, if being run as a purely business model.

£600 a week is also not a wage at all once costs are taken out. Presumably the costs Firefly speaks of don't include the Tesco shopping, mobile phone, heating oil, petrol for personal car, clothes etc etc. along with the livery yard expenses. £600 a week may cover the costs of the actual yard, but that would not include household expenses.

I don't see the relevance of people with low waged jobs or loads of kids not being able to afford a posh house. Presumably they can't afford a posh car or exotic holidays either. It does not mean that people with a nice house/land have to subsidise those who don't.

I do agree that livery owners set their own prices and should price to what they think. When I did freelance teaching I set my rate at what I thought would make me feel good. Some 'better qualified' people charged less and thought I would have no clients, but I was good at what I offered, gave great value for money IMO, and never struggled to attract happy clients. I also stopped teaching anyone who I did not enjoy teaching. This kept me happy and fresh and better for the clients I did teach.

Our place (home) was once a livery yard and, in fact, still had a resident livery with 2 ponies when we purchased. The purchase was freehold, and when the old owners tried to pass the property over with the 2 ponies still here we were going to pull out. I was glad we stuck to our guns, when we moved in the stables were filthy, the fields trashed, litter all over. No way would I have a livery.

If I did have liveries I would price it so I didn't mind, and ask anyone who did not fit in to leave. If that did not work then TBH I would rather sell up, invest the money and pay a decent amount for a proper service. Round here that would be around £160 a week for a service where you would not have to visit every day.
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I actually offered a yard I was on more money to be able to increase my horses hay ration. It was clear they were on the cheap side for livery. However they totally refused the extra money and would not increase the hay. I used to arrive in the yard to ride about 6pm and my horse would be hay less. I couldn’t bear the thought of riding him and then put him to bed hayless so I then bought extra off a friend to sneak in. I’m pretty sure the majority of the liveries that I associated with would prefer to pay the right amount to ensure their horses were properly cared for. In fact most of us bought in extras so it wasn’t a money issue but availability of anything better.
 
i was once on a yard that was rented by the yard manager to run as a business, not cheap livery from 550-800 per month depending on part or including riding etc. the problem was the manager had filled so many of the boxes with their own horses not bringing in a livery bill that they could not pay their rent and the staffing costs with the paying liveries.

yes they complained about subsidizing the liveries life style whilst we could see that down sizing their stock would have made it a viable business, they where loosing about 60K a year.
 
Hmmm .maybe cash in hand livery yards keep prices down?
How can a legitimate business up their prices when there is so much competition from folk who arent declaring their extra income?
 
BMWKIPP said:
And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
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Even on a zero hours contract you are on PAYE, your know your hourly rate and you are entitled to holiday pay. You have a contract, you do not have to work.
I have worked like this so I know. You can add your holiday pay fortnightly,or take as a lump sum.
Working in a supermarket will pay minimum wage, without the risks and a chance to earn more if you want.
When I left school I worked as a groom, I earned £3 a week pocket money, but I had a nice warm cottage, all bills paid, all the food I could eat, a lesson most days, and even some clothes provided. I learnt more in six months than most people would learn in two years of college. Even at sixteen although my passion was horses I realised it was not something that was sustainable long term.
Cleaners, gardeners, dog walkers etc earn at least £12ph and some more. For the job advertised as self employed I would be asking at least £15ph or a session rate.
 
BMWKIPP said:
And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
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The advert actually states an annual salary. Others have calculated the hourly wage based on a very conservative estimate of what hours the job would entail. For a Yard Manager, this is peanuts.
My point stands that stating that the successful candidate would need to be self-employed is an illegal requirement. The advert didn't ask for zero hours, they asked for self-employed.
 
BMWKIPP said:
And also everywhere that pays hourly does so on zero hour contracts these days. Therefore it is you OP that needs to come into the 21st century and realise this
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I’m not sure I understand what you mean by this. I’m responsible for over 1000 staff in a different industry. We employ people and don’t have zero hours contracts. We advertise using hourly rates though, and that is normal now (actually a fairly recent change for us as we used to use salary levels, but that doesn’t really work now for anything under about £25k).
That salary is VERY low (even if it was proper employment, which they are trying to dodge). In other industries those responsibilities would earn at least £25k (properly employed, so with benefits). The horse industry definitely is behind other industries in terms of how staff are treated.
As eventing mum says, this is a complex issue, and if all livery prices shot up to where they should be to reflect the real costs, there would be a welfare crisis. There are some yards that charge enough, but they are not the norm.
 
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