When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

HuntingPink said:
Unfortunately they are. I've recently been looking at yards for my two and lots of places have either single horse turnout or no more than two. I want my horses in a herd fgs!
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I think YO's have a tough time with this, either they shove a bunch of horses in together and shut their eyes to the injuries and stress, or they juggle.

In a large pasture I think bigger herds work as individuals have space to retreat to a safe distance, but not all yards have the facilities for that, my mares live on about 10 acres of mixed pasture, woodland and scrub around a half mile oval exercise track, and I think their pasture has a lot to do with how settled and mellow they are. The mares are a mix of old mares (20, 21, 24) in-foal mares, 3 year olds going down to a 6 week old foal, mares seem to be much easier to integrate than geldings.

I will not mix the sexes as the geldings always, always seem to get riggy and start upsetting the status quo. Maybe I've just been unlucky but all my geldings seem to be alpha males, some are just more alpha than others :( Quite frankly, if they weren't paying guests I wouldn't have a gelding on the place at all. My stallion causes less trouble (for less read none) than any gelding here apart from Charley and he doesn't count.

I have three two horse gelding 'groups' not by choice, I'd rather they were all together, but that's just the way it has worked out compatibly. I can't stand seeing geldings chase about, corner each other and generally kick the living daylights out of each other and I don't let it go on for long at all, minutes, not hours, not days and actually it horrifies me when I read of horses being left to be seriously bullied for days, sod working it out for themselves, I'd never leave a horse of mine in a situation like that. I know very well the difference between a "Hello, you're new, I'm the boss by the way" kind of malarkey as opposed to the "Who the hell do you think you are? This is my paddock, get in that corner and stay there whilst I kick your teeth down your throat!" type of aggression. I always have to remember that these are not my own horses but other peoples' and as such I am responsible for them and will not put them at unnecessary risk of injury when there is a far more peaceful alternative - even if it is inconvenient for me. Smaller groups in more paddocks = less boarders = less income. Silly of me to have a conscience and not cram 8 horses into lots of 1 acre paddocks - that isn't unusual here by the way.

Off topic, but what the hell, it began as my thread ;)
 
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Gosh, I never knew geldings could be so horrible. IME they've always got on, even with mares in adjacent paddocks. I have three in together, previous to that more than 5 in at once, with mares too. Infact my friend puts everything in together.. must be very lucky.
 
tallyho! said:
Gosh, I never knew geldings could be so horrible. IME they've always got on, even with mares in adjacent paddocks. I have three in together, previous to that more than 5 in at once, with mares too. Infact my friend puts everything in together.. must be very lucky.
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Every single time I have problems with groups it is geldings that are the root of it. I may just have been unfortunate. New thread I think.
 
I have no qualms about giving a horse a smack with hand, whip whatever you have to hand, should the situation warrant it. Horses are bigger and much stronger than us, we have to make them understand our boundaries. This doesn't always mean hitting them, I agree but most of the time it does no harm. Complete beatings are unacceptable and amount to abuse, I once knew a girl who I threatened to take her own whip too, after I had removed it from her for beating her horse with it because it would not stand still!
I help with a mare my friend bought last summer for her 14 yr old girls, sold as a quiet hack for novices. She bites, kicks and rears, hence why they are not riding or dealing with her, I am. Last winter she quite regularly got a slap for biting or trying to when being rugged - I was being very nice folded the rug in half placed it on the front end gave her a scratch and a treat then un folded the rug and started doing it up, when I did the front up she really tried to take a chunk out of you - so yes she gets a slap, not once did I pull on the rug or hurt her in any way therefore she must deal with it. I can rug her no problems now - in fact I had to go and rug her last night - her owner would rather leave her without as its too much hassle for her, she is a skinny tb and lives out - she needs to be rugged!
When I watch her owner with her, its almost laughable - the mare makes a face and her owner backs off from whatever she may have been trying to do(this could be rugging to cleaning a wound or picking her feet out) - the mare has her well trained! However, I go in growl and a slap if needed and she is sweetness and light! She certainly isn't scared of me - just has respect, if she crosses the line, punishment follows, if she is good she gets all the love and praise in the world.
My own horse, is very well behaved, however in the 10 years I have owned her I have had call to give her a good slap on a few occasions. If the horse needs it, it will get it. To much pussy footing around will only create problems a short sharp wallop can fix.
 
cptrayes said:
He seems to have a clear memory of how much trouble it got him into to be in the feed shed, and that's exactly how I want it, in case my OH leaves the door open by mistake again like he sometimes does. .
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Seems to me it should have been your 'OH' who got the kick in the guts. :D
 
It's usually physical abuse which makes horses dangerous to handle. Of course the humans can always justify it, but the horses seldom understand why they are being hit.

I have never found the need to hit horses. I have had to work with some pretty mixed up horses, many of them quite dangerous, but I've always found that convincing a horse that I can be more dangerous to him if he tries to intimidate me is sufficient to keep myself safe.

I once got my teeth kicked out by a client's horse when it double-barrelled me whilst I was teaching it to longe. I didn't hit that one either. I just spat the broken teeth out, got after him, and sent him on again. It wasn't his fault I let him close enough to kick me. He didn't try again.

I believe violence against horses usually perpetuates their bad behaviour. Far better to establish a relationship where the horse does as he's asked, when he's asked, and understands that things get difficult for him if he tries to push his luck.
 
AengusOg said:
Seems to me it should have been your 'OH' who got the kick in the guts. :D
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I did not kick the pony in the guts. I also understand, as few people seem to, that no person is perfect, even the ones who post on here as if they are.

And we have done the subject of this pony to death, so please go on to something else now while I go fetch a cockerel for a live sacrifice at midnight.
 
AengusOg said:
It's usually physical abuse which makes horses dangerous to handle.
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It is very often LACK of handling that makes a horse difficult to handle. I would also question how you know the full history of every horse that you have met that was dangerous to handle. The only horse who has bitten me properly was known to me from birth and had never in his life been physically abused.

AengusOg said:
Of course the humans can always justify it, but the horses seldom understand why they are being hit.
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Those of us who do hit our horses when it is the right thing to do only do it when they DO understand why they are being hit. When I hit a horse of mine it understands perfectly why I do it.

AengusOg said:
I've always found that convincing a horse that I can be more dangerous to him if he tries to intimidate me is sufficient to keep myself safe.
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And how do you do that to a horse which has just flown at you in the field and tried to bite your face off? See another post on New Lounge on this subject.

AengusOg said:
It wasn't his fault I let him close enough to kick me. He didn't try again.
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I wouldn't have a horse that I couldn't let close enough to kick me. My horses are all close enough to kick me any time they choose. They don't choose. Keeping a horse out of kicking range is not, in my yard, an option.


AengusOg said:
I believe violence against horses usually perpetuates their bad behaviour.
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This is not my experience. I have, over the years, routinely paid peanuts for horses that other people could not manage and I have sorted every single one out so they could be ridden and handled by novices. I think I probably hit most of them at one time or another.

AengusOg said:
Far better to establish a relationship where the horse does as he's asked, when he's asked, and understands that things get difficult for him if he tries to push his luck.
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Occasional violence and a good relationship are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly possible to have a relationship where the horse does what he is asked when the "getting difficult for him" occasionally involves a wallop.
 
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When I first had my mare I was going for the nice approach (by the way she was evil), which only resulted in 5 months of being bitten, kicked, charged at, bronked off at any available moment, and literally was never allowed to touch her, the only time she was happy was when i was no where near her! In the end I settled with a nice big smack on the nose if she bit me, and after a few attempts she never did it again!! 3 years on she is now one of the sweetest mares ever who loves cuddles and kisses and if she ever even thinks about biting me you can see her mentally stop herself! Having said all that she did put her ears back at me after coming back from holiday for a week and refused to budge from the field, mares will be mares though!!
 
I have only ever used a whip in a strong manner once on a hunt. The boy I was on was being very naughty, kicking, bucking, rearing etc. I led him well away from everyone to pack up and go home, I was telling people to stay back from him but a small girl on a pony came across the front of us and my horse bit her HARD on the thigh and went for her again. He got a very strong smack as at the time I couldn't think what else to do quickly to make him stop. He was 17.3 and hugely strong, I couldn't turn his head at all. I hated myself for hitting him that hard but even to this day I don't know what else I could have done so quickly to stop him.

At the end of the day, after that event he was not scared of me or whips, when he was good he got pats and treats. It works both ways. If my own child was being nasty and biting other people I wouldn't have a problem smacking them.

A few years ago at Hickstead there was a guy who literally beat his horse round the head with his whip when the horse refused a jump. Can't remember who it was but it was a disgusting thing to watch and many people were in tears. I believe there were a lot of complaints over it and I think the rider got a ban.
 
Dunlin said:
A few years ago at Hickstead there was a guy who literally beat his horse round the head with his whip when the horse refused a jump. Can't remember who it was but it was a disgusting thing to watch and many people were in tears. I believe there were a lot of complaints over it and I think the rider got a ban.
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Yes I remember that it was horrible :( I believe the rider was a Belgian man, I think his surname name began with M??? Not 100% sure though
 
This whole subject is getting silly. At no point has anyone said that they will BEAT a horse for punishment, by BEAT I mean thrash the horse in temper that makes it inappropriate and will turn a good horse bad.

To punish a horse with a hard whack at the right time, which is AS it misbehaves is not going to do harm. It will be a reminder to the horse that you have the brain and the power to take control. A hit in the correct place, whether it is with the hand across the muzzle for biting or a whack on the backside with a shovel because it threatened to kick and that is what is to hand is going to make them think twice about doing it again.

Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)
I have horses here that I have never done anything more than raise my voice to them, others have had a whack. Depends on the horse and the sin. I have the patience of Job when it comes to teaching something to the nervous/insecure horse but when a horse switches off and says 'NO' out of sheer lack of being made to do things then I am not afraid to crack it one.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)
one.
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IMO that's an unfair assumption, that the only way we can deal with bad behaviour is with physical reprimand. I had an aggressive, bargy, ''ill mannered'' youngster who knew little (okay, in fairness, a lot of it was babyish and not knowing any better). He bit, kicked, barged the lot. Not once did I raise my hand (or voice).

I've dealt with bad behaviour using negative punishment, positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement.

So it IS possible to train without smacking and reprimanding as such. I can also account for two other ponies, whom I've used the same method on.

All three are gentlemen now :)
 
Foxhunter49 said:
This whole subject is getting silly. At no point has anyone said that they will BEAT a horse for punishment, by BEAT I mean thrash the horse in temper that makes it inappropriate and will turn a good horse bad.

To punish a horse with a hard whack at the right time, which is AS it misbehaves is not going to do harm. It will be a reminder to the horse that you have the brain and the power to take control. A hit in the correct place, whether it is with the hand across the muzzle for biting or a whack on the backside with a shovel because it threatened to kick and that is what is to hand is going to make them think twice about doing it again.

Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)
I have horses here that I have never done anything more than raise my voice to them, others have had a whack. Depends on the horse and the sin. I have the patience of Job when it comes to teaching something to the nervous/insecure horse but when a horse switches off and says 'NO' out of sheer lack of being made to do things then I am not afraid to crack it one.
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lol.. Foxhunter, this is far too sensible a post! :D
 
"Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you."

Sadly I can't say that - but the last time I hit a horse was in 1989 - I was riding in a race at Salisbury - I won the race but watching the video afterwards I felt sick watching it - I thought "so I 'love' horses and this is the way I treat them?" Incidentally, the press thought I'd ridden a great race 'Kelly Marks rode her amateur riders to sleep' - yeah right - the press and people who bet on horses seem to positively approve of horses being hit. Shows you're 'trying' you see. Incidentally, I rode the best winners of my career after I made the decision never to hit a horse again.


"I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)"

Yes I have. A lot since working with Monty Roberts! However, there are more (and this is key) SAFER and more EFFECTIVE ways of getting the results you want than striking a horse. Won't mention them here or I'll get banned again! But think about this ... Sir Mark Prescott is generally regarded as a genius racehorse trainer, his favourite sports are bull fighting and anything bloody (!) and yet ... he won't let his lads ride out with whips on his horses. Why? Because it ruins them and cause more problems than they solve.

I am not here to be adversarial. But discussion forums are a great place to get people to consider different ideas - and that's all I'd ask you to do. So if you absolutely couldn't hit a horse - what else might you do to ensure he became a kind, respectful, well mannered horse?
 
ozpoz said:
lol.. Foxhunter, this is far too sensible a post! :D
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It is one point of view - just not the only valid one.

However, the following...

"Those of you that say you have never hit your horses, then I say good for you. I also state that you have never come across a truly bargy, ill mannered (and therefore miserable horse)"

clearly doesn't make sense because it implies, wrongly, that hitting horses is the only way to deal with bargy, ill-mannered horses. (Apologies if that's not what was meant.)
 
Like many of the posters on here, I'll admit to having hit horses in the past - but once I started actually thinking about what I was doing, reading books and going on a few courses I made the conscious decision not to hit with a whip again. A horse that can feel a fly land on it's skin can obviously feel a whip and will feel it a lot - try hitting your leg with a whip when wearing chaps(kinky) to see how much it hurts. Horses are prey animals who have evolved not to show pain as the predators pick out the weak members of the herd so of course they won't whimper or such signs of weakness. I've recently started doing agility with my dog and I wonder how popular it woudl be as a sport if you were actively encouraged to carry a stick and hit the dog if it did wrong in the same way that the horse riding community are?

I want my horse to be pleased to see me when I walk out to him in the field, come to me rather than me have to chase him to catch him and then be happy to let me tack up and mount -I don't see that any horse will react well
if they know that pain is guaranteed to follow being caught.
 
team barney said:
The only circumstances in which I would hit a horse is if said horse was in serious attack mode (believe me it happens) and I had no other escape.
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Same. I am involved with a 5 y/o horse that's not disciplined AT ALL and the other day his (kinda clueless) owner was on holiday and left me to look after him and her other horse. was picking out his feet and he tried to kick me in the head after spinning around and almost knocking me off my feet. he got a smack and firm NO. Second time, the same thing happened, another smack and no. THIRD TIME, and believe me he was really going for me he got a rather large wallop as his hoof missed my head by about an inch. He hasn't done it since with me!

*and before 'horsey huggers' ask if he has a problem which mean he could be reacting this way. no he doesn't! he has been taught, knows perfectly well how to, is in no pain, and is just taking the p*ss....and is mean!!!*
 
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