When WOULD you hit a horse? Or would you?

[cptrayes]

aman and lassie here here for what you said - sorry to often children are taught if no responsne then whack it if it refuses hit it ( sorry did you ride that jump right did you ask the right questions)- my dream hopefully to come true soon is buy a young one straight of mum and raise a well mannered horse to show and ride - and not one hand will be raised - just by thinking horse by understanding them and treating the baby as a horse - as said its so so so rare a horse is born bad its the human interaction that turns them bad - micheal peace is my hero and we need more of him

I bought one off the mother who I had seen born. He had never been mismanaged in his life and was never hit. His mother had shared her food with him and he had never been short of food. And one day, when I put his food on the floor, he picked me up by my arm and through three jumpers and a padded coat he broke the skin and made me bleed. I still have the scar.

I hope you are not sadly disillusioned when you find your perfect baby.

 

[aimeetb]

Nooooooo I am really quite startled by it, but it makes interesting reading nonetheless, I am also impressed that something this length hasn't plummetted into too much arguing and insults.

There are a couple of members who are usually quite vociferous and are conspicuous by their absence I am very surprised they haven't commented, thought I might have missed them, but have just checked and they haven't.

You know, I was thinking the exact same thing! LOL

 

[lassiesuca]

Also; is it crueler to leave your horse tied up until someone shuts the feed room door or until to let him walk around the yard (you've said your husband has dangerous tools?), where there are potential hazards and if he goes near them gets kicked in the ribs !??!

Or, do what most people do and keep your sack of sugarbeet in a safe, locked container. Not only does it prevent horses getting hold of it, but also to stop mice eating away at it. I get your husband is human, but we have goats at my yard, and I learnt that lesson when I bought a valuable piece of schoolwork to the yard and they ate it (my teacher didn't believe the 'sorry my goat at my coursework' excuse), and as a result, I've had to be extra vigilant in making sure I shut any gates, keep all bags out of their reach or in a secure place and too make sure I shut everything. Since then, I've not had any issues because I've got myself into a habit of keeping everything shut.


In terms of solving the behaviour, I think you've obviously not taught your horse well. No disrespect at all (although impossible to avoid it ) I believe that if he still does it, and despite you beating the crap out of him hasn't solved it, you need to review your training program. For example, why don't you do some basic handling skills again? Go back to the beginning. Do leading, standing, backing up etc. Then I'd either let your horse in the field loose, or tie him up when around the yard and potentially hazardous dangers. If it's too much for him to resist the temptation, then simply don't put him in that situation. It was YOUR fault he got beaten and could of got hurt, whether you chose to accept the blame or not (or your husband) is your call, but he took a beating for your error. That's not fair. Yes, he could of been hurt, but jesus christ, all you had to do was pull him away from the feed sack.

My goats have 'attacked' me (i.e. pushed me out the way) to get to a sack of feed in the past. They can be really set on eating the food, so I had to pull him out. Once he was out, I pushed him out the feedroom and shut the door. I didn't shout at him at all, because it would of been poorly timed and I'd fixed the problem. Making the mental note to never leave the door open. SInce then though, the goats have been in serious training to respect food

 

[opinionuk]

Never. My mare is a 4 year old mare from hell I work to introduce manners by body language and horsemanship but violence towards a horse or any animal is ever acceptable!

 

[dressage.diva]

I think it depends on the situation. I have a horse who was abused, he attacks you in his stable, if you ignore him, give him a stroke and just watch your back, he is fine! in fact now, with me he dose not even bother. However if you tell him off, hit him, scream at him, he will simply full on attack you, the more you fight him, the worse he will get. The only time he is dangerous is if you hit him. I also have a stallion 17hh warmblood, now there is no way he could go through day to day life with-out getting an occasional smack on the bum. I don't mean whacking him- he simply dose not need it. I mean an occasional smack to put him in his place when he even thinks about barging or biting otherwise he would walk all over you..

 

[Serenity087]

I'm a middle ground smacker.

I refuse point blank to belt Dorey for hurting me. She has, in 8 years, bitten twice and stomped on my feet on purpose twice (I know the difference as she's stepped on me by accident many more times and it doesn't hurt half as much!) and on all four occasions I can cite pain and discomfort.

The last time she bit me she ended up cowering and shaking more that I did. I know she didn't mean to hurt me, she just wanted to say she was worried I would hurt her (hadn't touched her, as it happened!)

However, the middle ground stuff, barging, being a tit, ignoring my other aids - they don't go unpunished. If I let her off with the middle ground then she'll start pushing the dangerous stuff to keep getting her own way!

 

[Mike007]

Me, well I,m still learning about horses ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.

 

[Charliepony]

Once my old pony reared up at my sister and lashed out with his front feet (he was a git, it was because she had his feed bucket) and I went to wallop him! A proper wallop... But I bloody well missed, and the little bugger was up the other end of the field by then Damn pony.

That's the only time I went to give a proper good smack... I killed a horsefly on my boy's arse yesterday and he nearly chucked me off! So I don't make a habit of even gently smacking him (and it was really more of a firm pat on the bottom in the case of the horsefly)

If one of mine went to bite me they'd get a prod with an elbow, if they kicked with intent probably something slightly more significant... I don't like carrying a stick either but I think that's more because I drop them constantly...

 

[Alyth]

I want a like button for Mike007!! I have found it is better to do less sooner rather than more after the fact......if you can step in early and prevent the horse biting or kicking you are winning!!! Consistently making the horse keep out of your bubble means he will soon learn to stay at arms length and not barge into you. And that is just one small problem solved!!!

 

[FanyDuChamp]

Me, well I,m still learning about horses ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.

This.
FDC

 

[amandap]

Me, well I,m still learning about horses ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.

Yes. Short and sweet summing up.

Btw. Thankyou for the 'like' earlier in the thread FDC.

Mta. Better make it clear that I did it the other way round. I decided that I didn't want to hit and I was then forced to find other ways of controlling my frustration and training horses. I feel I'm learning so much more about horses and myself.

 

[templewood]

Some very extreme cases here. Does anyone seriously think a horse with a 'brain tumor' or similar would take any notice of a bloke with a stick, the truth is no, the horse wouldn't feel it. So what chance a child, youngster or woman.(no matter how feisty).

Not all the horses mentioned here had 'brain tumors'! When your a small 5' 3" female handling a 17.3hh CB x ID who knows exactly how big and strong he is, believe me, you have to instill some respect, otherwise you would literally get walked all over. A little tap just doesn't do it! On the other hand I've never whacked my PRE stallion, as he is very sensitive and would probably have a nervous breakdown! Usually just shouting at him has the desired effect, as he hates thinking he's been bad.

More horses have been spoiled by not having a whack when they needed it, than by having one when they didn't. I don't mean beating them up either.
You see horses all they time at DIY livery yards becoming unmanageable because they aren't taught what is unacceptable behaviour. They get the reputation of being difficult and are then sold from pillar to post, and end up being destroyed as they are dangerous.
What is kinder?

 

[amandap]

When your a small 5' 3" female handling a 17.3hh CB x ID who knows exactly how big and strong he is, believe me, you have to instill some respect, otherwise you would literally get walked all over. A little tap just doesn't do it!

Perhaps we need to think about what we mean by respect? Do some mean fear/respect?

To me 'respect' comes from an understanding,clear, consistant leadership. I aim to have consistant 'manners' by consistant handling so I no longer get barged or pulled along as I have in the past.
I'm shorter than you templewood and my 16hh tb no longer bumps me or thinks about rushing over me if she's alarmed. I have never hit her or shouted at her. I have been very strict about asking her to step out of my space if she walks too close etc. etc. etc. She is the horse that has taught me the most about my failings and inconsistencies in handling and training.

 

[georgiegirl]

Not read all the replies but here is my two penneth worth.......

Things like napping, biting, kicking or to evade danger ie a ditch or car will all warrant a wallop - as will things like a dirty stop.

I think the saying 'spare the rod and spoil the child' applies absolutely to horses and a great deal of horses you see are allowed to walk all over their owners who take the attitude of 'mummys little darling can do no wrong'. Horses are large, dangerous animals and i think its only fair on horses and humans that the be handled and dealt with firmly but fairly.

That said....this is a world away from what people describe as 'beating' - it is a grave error to hit a horse out of temper.

 

[Wagtail]

Perhaps we need to think about what we mean by respect? Do some mean fear/respect?

To me 'respect' comes from an understanding,clear, consistant leadership. I aim to have consistant 'manners' by consistant handling so I no longer get barged or pulled along as I have in the past.
I'm shorter than you templewood and my 16hh tb no longer bumps me or thinks about rushing over me if she's alarmed. I have never hit her or shouted at her. I have been very strict about asking her to step out of my space if she walks too close etc. etc. etc. She is the horse that has taught me the most about my failings and inconsistencies in handling and training.

I am against giving horses a good wallop. However, other horses will do far more than that to one another. And yes, with a horse, there is a mixture of fear with the respect. I recently put a gelding in with an established herd of three others. He was next to them getting introduced for 2 weeks first. When I put him in, he was immediately boss of two of the other geldings, but the existing leader refused to move over for him and whack! Huge kick to the thigh that needed veterinary treatment. Now the subordinate horses scatter as soon as this gelding walks into their space. It is a fear response and yes, they also respect him. Now he doesn't even need to put his ears back. They just leap immediately out of his way. They also all share some mutual grooming with him too though and the herd is peaceful.

So whilst I am against hitting horses in general, I am not against the idea that it may have its place if a horse really steps out of line, especially if its aggressive. But the thought of someone hitting their horse every day, like someone on here has said they do, just disgusts me. That horse does not respect her if she needs to do that every day. That is plain abuse.

 

[grey velvet]

i would only ever hit my horse on the shoulder hard if she misbehaved whilst i was schooling her! xx

 

[cptrayes]

you've said your husband has dangerous tools?

No I didn't.

my teacher didn't believe the 'sorry my goat at my coursework' excuse

You're young, obviously. When you are my age you will realise that the world is not as black and white as you think it is.

In terms of solving the behaviour, I think you've obviously not taught your horse well. No disrespect at all (although impossible to avoid it ) I believe that if he still does it

He does not still do it, did you not read what I wrote.

I have taught him excellently. Everyone loves him because he is so nice, and he loves me. He will do anything for me, untied, including trimming his feet. Any time that I am in sight, he comes to be with me even if it is just to stand by my side. Mostly he loves a back scratch and a mouth massage.

, and despite you beating the crap out of him

I did not beat the crap out of him. I kicked him 3 times on his backside through a 3 inch thick winter coat with a Harry Hall polyurethane boot with thin soles and no toe-cap through which I could clearly feel how much force I was using.

him hasn't solved it

it has, you just don't want to hear it.

he took a beating for your error.

He did not take a beating. It was my error. But unlike you, I know that Shetland ponies are big escape artists and that humans cannot be guaranteed not to make mistakes. I made a choice that the safest thing to do was to make any place with food in it that he should not have an uncomfortable place for him to be. As a result, he asks permission before entering any of the three open stables as well, in case there is a feed waiting for a horse which is just walking into the yard for breakfast or tea.

That's not fair

Life is not fair. Get used to it or you have a hard time in store as you get older.







Now can we PLEASE shut up about this pony, it's all been said and I am fed up with boring people by wanting to correct later posts to put the record straight. Besides, I have newts to catch and toads to de-eye so that I can put them in my cauldron.

 

[amandap]

I am against giving horses a good wallop. However, other horses will do far more than that to one another. And yes, with a horse, there is a mixture of fear with the respect.

I am a firm believer in learning about horses and how they interact with each other as part of my learning. However, I am not a horse and I know my horses know I am not a horse, so replicating horse/horse behaviour is not my bible or aim. My feeling is that we don't see or know enough about what led up to horses biting or kicking each other to fairly inflict that on them in a 'training' scenario. The liklihood it is misunderstood, considered unfair or leaves horses confused as to what they have done to deserve this punishment is imo extremely high.

Yes I will use body language that I have learned the horse understands naturally to my advantage but I think the 'dialogue' we can get with our horses is very far from being good enough to be able to hit fairly and effectively in 99.9% of cases. So I would argue the risk is more of loosing respect and gaining a fear response than gaining 'respect'.

For me the object is to aim to train and manage well enough that I don't get in positions where I am out of control. I'm far from there yet but through careful planning and thinking stuff through I have managed to keep calm and never resported to hitting for a good few years now.

 

[Spyda]

I'd never hit, whip, kick, punch a horse as 'punishment' or to defend myself. Nor would I do it for any other reason (just incase you're left wondering )! There are better ways to manage any situation that may arise between a horse and a human being. 99% of the time confidence, body language, your voice and quick thinking can resolve a tricky situation. I try to avoid the other 1% occurring

Could I ask what you wouldv'e done in my situation then? I am a confident handler, I couldn't use too much body language as I was pinned against a tree and was struggling to breathe, my voice was not doing anything. She was not listening to me, I asked her to move away from me and she didn't do it. She knows what back means, she has never ever done anything like this before and always has been a pleasure to handle. so it wasn't due to lack of understanding either. She just choose this day not to listen to me.

There was knowone else around and I was in a lot of pain, she was still barging into me and it got to the point were I could here my ribs cracking. So I hit her, it worked!! that was 2 years ago now and she has never tried that again. She's not headshy because of it and had I not done it I would've probably ended up with broken ribs and perhaps a punctured lung.

I'm not trying to start an arguement but I am interested to know how you would've handled it ?

Of course I would have given her a good wallop to get her attention and to move off me!! That scenario falls in the 1% of occasions I try to avoid.

Because I've generally dealt with expensive, highly strung, temperamental horses (mostly youngstock) I try to avoid putting myself into a position where accidents or bolshy behaviour can escalate. Just for example, I always handle and lead in a Stephens Controller Headcollar and long line. I very rarely need them in practice and in the past 2 years of daily handling haven't had to use the controller's action (except perhaps just the odd jiggle to get someone who's distracted to focus on being handled), but on the 1% of occasions that a horse has lost the plot or pushed the boundaries it's been an invaluable safeguard in protecting me, people around me and the horse itself. It's short sharp action simply stops the horse in its tracks and gets things safely back on track.

If I have to deal with a horse with known aggression issues, I plan and do everything with a great deal of forethought and care to protect myself. Much can be gleened from reading the horse's body language. Few horses don't forewarn with some subtle indication in their eye, muzzle, stance, ears, etc. Forewarned is forarmed, as they say!

I guess experience has taught me that NO horse is 100% all of the time and it's best to always be prepared for the unexpected - even if the unexpected only happens once in every 10 years!

 

[Wagtail]

I am a firm believer in learning about horses and how they interact with each other as part of my learning. However, I am not a horse and I know my horses know I am not a horse, so replicating horse/horse behaviour is not my bible or aim. My feeling is that we don't see or know enough about what led up to horses biting or kicking each other to fairly inflict that on them in a 'training' scenario. The liklihood it is misunderstood, considered unfair or leaves horses confused as to what they have done to deserve this punishment is imo extremely high.

My point wasn't that we should replicate what horses do to one another. My point was that horses instill fear in one another to gain respect. We have to find a way of making them respect us without inflicting pain. I have never had a problem with this either. The only time I would hit a horse is if it purposely kicked me or aggressively bit me. Nipping is just ignored by me. But full on biting has probably only happened to me twice in thirty years, and both times it was met with a wallop and then some sending away of the horse. A horse that once kicked me (I still have a dint in my thigh) was immediately kicked back. She never did it again with me, though she continued to with her owner. She became the sweetest little thing with me and I could do anything with her, where as her owner could not even catch her and she often chased her out of the field! I am not talking about horses kicking when startled or being hurt in some way (say when being tacked up). I am talking about pure unprovoked dominance aggression.

 

[templewood]

Perhaps we need to think about what we mean by respect? Do some mean fear/respect?

To me 'respect' comes from an understanding,clear, consistant leadership. I aim to have consistant 'manners' by consistant handling so I no longer get barged or pulled along as I have in the past.
I'm shorter than you templewood and my 16hh tb no longer bumps me or thinks about rushing over me if she's alarmed. I have never hit her or shouted at her. I have been very strict about asking her to step out of my space if she walks too close etc. etc. etc. She is the horse that has taught me the most about my failings and inconsistencies in handling and training.

I no longer get barged or pulled along either! A 16hh TB mare is very different propasition, both temperamentally and physically, to a 17.3h CB x ID gelding who, just two days ago, completely pushed over a 30yr old tree by scratching his backside on it! This same horse once became afraid of going into the field (long story) and would just hang around near the gate. He would only go into the field (without lead rope or head collar) if he was walking next to me, as he felt safe. He wouldn't do that if he was afraid of me, which I can assure you, he isn't!
I agree about being consistant. I've been around horses for 44 years and they all teach you something. Mainly that you can't treat them all the same.

 

[Amaranta]

Me, well I,m still learning about horses ,have been for the last 55 years. It seems to me that the more I learn ,the less I need to resort to a whip.

*applauds*

 

[templewood]

So whilst I am against hitting horses in general, I am not against the idea that it may have its place if a horse really steps out of line, especially if its aggressive. But the thought of someone hitting their horse every day, like someone on here has said they do, just disgusts me. That horse does not respect her if she needs to do that every day. That is plain abuse.

I've read all the posts and I haven't seen any where someone said that they hit their horse everyday!

 

[Natch]

Such an interesting concept, respect and how to achieve it. I think the industry has a lot of catching up to do with itself on terms of thinking about how we safely and compassionately control our horses. 500kg of horse vs <100kg of human, of course there will be a school of thought which believes we should dominate through fear. Yet I see more and more examples of horses trained without violence, and they are the politest, most relaxed, switched on horses going.

For every horse ruined by lack of discipline (which does not = violence in my opinion) there is another ruined by inappropriate use of punishment.

 

[flyingfeet]

Depends on the horse - just watch them in a herd and there are those where a flick of the ear from the herd alpha sends the scuttling away

Then there are those who are either slow or pushing their luck and the herd leader will generally have to nip and or boot them to get them to listen to the alpha

As with humans, there are some sensitive souls who you just have to grumble at to get their respect and attention. Then there are others that require a short sharp shock to get them listening to you

I'd rather 'hit' properly once at the correct timing, as its far more effective. One thing that really annoys me is jumping where if a horse stops the rider turns the horse away (from the thing they are spooking at) and then lays into them. Its pointless and reflection of the riders poor understanding

Also to echo Mike - the more l've learnt the less brutal tactics are required. Now for ground work I send away and do not need violence.

 

[Wagtail]

I've read all the posts and I haven't seen any where someone said that they hit their horse everyday!

SohieLouBee page 6. Granted, she says MOST days, but it sounds like even she wallops the poor horse for panicking with the farrier and knocking his tools over.

 

[fburton]

Can the people who believe that horses do not rely on violence between themselves tell me how they think horse DO communicate with each other?

Body language, of course - most of it non-aggressive - plus some vocalisation.

I can tell you from watching mine for hours that this is NOT the conversation:

I too am a life-long horse watcher and have watched horses for hours on end. Apart from the antics of bullies (where the group had one) I saw very little argy-bargy over grazing or anything else. I'm not disputing your observations, but I would suggest that not all herds display the same level of violence that yours does.

Dobbin: That looks like a nice piece of grass you have there. I need that bit of grass more than you do, would you mind if I had it instead of you?

I am curious to know what your grazing is like, because it is very unusual for horses to compete over something as plentiful and widely distributed as grass. Hay piles or feed buckets, for sure - but grass??

Why else do you think horses are increasingly being kept in one-horse turnouts?

Interesting! Who says they are? This may be a well-recognized phenomenon - and if so, I'd be interested to find out why, because it has not been a particular problem in my experience. Horses have always kicked and injured other horses from time to time, and ructions are more frequent when horses are added and removed a lot. However, I am surprised to hear this problem is getting worse - or do you mean the tolerance of injury is getting less?

Someone

That would be me.

once gave a statistic that wild horses were "only" seen to behave violently 2% of the time.

That was the Great Basin stallions, who obviously do spend some time fighting. The mares were different. "On the average less than one individual per three hours of observation would be involved in food-related aggression during the most stressful season." (since you gave the example of bits of grass)

Violence is a language that all preyed upon animals understand perfectly. I have no problem, from time to time, with speaking in that language to my horses.

All the same, I am sure you would agree that we are not obliged to use violence simply because they do, and if there are non-violent ways of achieving a goal which work just as well it is better to use them instead.

I am not sure why you asked about teaching a pony not to enter a feed shed using positive reinforcement alone (although, ironically, the scenario does highlight rather well how powerful food reinforcers can be!). I think that's a bit of a red herring in terms of addressing the problem in practice.

Nevertheless, you're right when you say one can't "create a negative reaction to a particular place with positive reinforcement". Personally, I wouldn't want to rely on any alternative, positively-reinforced behaviours to protect a pony in the first place, when the competing motivation is so tempting.

However, neither would I want to rely on a one-off punisher to ensure safe behaviour!

If you want to discourage entry into the feed shed and also help to ensure that it is appropriately secured, perhaps you could rig up a loud alarm device that activates when the door is opened and that can only be de-activated temporarily? That would provide instant deterrence for any would be equine intruders, and act as a reminder to humans to close the door behind them.

Re hitting. If it was necessary to keep myself or others safe, of course I would, without hesitation - but as a training aid and dealing with day to day behaviour I think it's ugly and unnecessary. I haven't felt the need to hit (or shout at) any horse for years and I concur with whoever said the more they learn the less they need to resort to physical reprimands.

 

[templewood]

Such an interesting concept, respect and how to achieve it. I think the industry has a lot of catching up to do with itself on terms of thinking about how we safely and compassionately control our horses. 500kg of horse vs <100kg of human, of course there will be a school of thought which believes we should dominate through fear. Yet I see more and more examples of horses trained without violence, and they are the politest, most relaxed, switched on horses going.

For every horse ruined by lack of discipline (which does not = violence in my opinion) there is another ruined by inappropriate use of punishment.

I see more and more twitchy, jumpy horses, with rolling eyes and dilated nostrils being 'trained' by so called 'kind' methods. When you look into it, these methods are not kind at all! The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, and if they don't, as I've seen recently, they are hit over the head with the end of the rope!
As for polite, relaxed, switched on horses, all I've seen at the other end of the spectrum is horses that have been completely ground down by these methods and are little more than zombies, with absolutely no interest in anything. They do what they're told automatically, but with no enthusiasm, a though they have completely lost interest in life, which they probably have. I remember one stretching his muzzle out to me for a fuss. He was immediately jerked back by his owner, as, apparently, he didn't have 'permission' to enter my space!

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty. I could go on, but to sum up, when I was younger, horses seemed a lot happier than they do now, with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.

 

[Wagtail]

I see more and more twitchy, jumpy horses, with rolling eyes and dilated nostrils being 'trained' by so called 'kind' methods. When you look into it, these methods are not kind at all! The horses usually seem to be terrified and have absolutely no idea what is being asked of them or what they are supposed to do. My horses back up quietly and calmy when told "back". These horse go back on the end of a long swishing line with rolling eyes and heads in the air, and if they don't, as I've seen recently, they are hit over the head with the end of the rope!
As for polite, relaxed, switched on horses, all I've seen at the other end of the spectrum is horses that have been completely ground down by these methods and are little more than zombies, with absolutely no interest in anything. They do what they're told automatically, but with no enthusiasm, a though they have completely lost interest in life, which they probably have. I remember one stretching his muzzle out to me for a fuss. He was immediately jerked back by his owner, as, apparently, he didn't have 'permission' to enter my space!

Mental cruelty is just as bad, if not worse, than physical cruelty. I could go on, but to sum up, when I was younger, horses seemed a lot happier than they do now, with some of these so-called natural methods. All a horse requires from you (apart from general welfare) is to know where he stands and to feel safe and secure. He is then a happy horse.

I agree, there is a lot of cruelty in some natural horsemanship methods, just as there is in some traditional practices. I like to pick and choose the ones I use. I use a mixture of the two, and hate following any particular regime as I have not found a single one that totally agree with.

 

[fburton]

Such an interesting concept, respect and how to achieve it.

Yes, it sure is! In my view, many people (understandably) tend to humanize the word 'respect' too much when use it in relation to horses, by implying "obedience to authority". I personally doubt horses have any concept of either obedience or authority, though both are assumed in how horse behaviour is commonly interpreted, leading to all kinds of odd (imo) ideas of a horse being deliberately naughty, "taking the p*ss", "knowing he's done wrong", etc. when 'respect' is lacking.

I think the industry has a lot of catching up to do with itself on terms of thinking about how we safely and compassionately control our horses. 500kg of horse vs <100kg of human, of course there will be a school of thought which believes we should dominate through fear. Yet I see more and more examples of horses trained without violence, and they are the politest, most relaxed, switched on horses going.

Yes! When one sees what can be achieved without violence, it is a real encouragement to do it oneself.

For every horse ruined by lack of discipline (which does not = violence in my opinion) there is another ruined by inappropriate use of punishment.

Education is the key to tackling both problems - setting a good example for others to follow.