Where did EE go wrong in your opinion? if you thought it did!

Just got back.

So sad and upset about what happened with Cavalier. He was in such smashing form and looked a absolute picture.

I was sitting behind the double of corners where Cavvy fell, and Marys line to the corner was way,way off from a long way away. I thought that she was going to run straight past the corners her line was so off. She made no attempt to correct the line until the very last moment, actually in the last two strides she veered right, and somehow got Cavvy pointing the right way. Cavvy very genuinely jumped for her, managed to scramble the first corner, and unfortunately , didnt quite make the second corner.

Every rider that had a run out at those corners had their line off from miles out. We could see that they were not going to make it from 10 strides out. With Vittoria, Oli , Will and Caroline, they had their lines pretty much spot on as soon as they turned that corner to approach those fences.

I was very very disapointed with the complete lack of preparation by many of the riders. So many did not know where they were going nor did they have their 'heads together' enough to ride that course properly. They simply lacked mental agility - were not thinking quickly, had no preparation for the tricky lines- they simply seemed unable to co-ordinate and organise exactly what they were doing and where they were going when they were jumping a course with fences coming up thick and fast. The only people that had the right mindset for this competition were the people that finished. In short, they had to jump like showjumpers and be quick and extremely organised and hardly any of them managed that.

Oli Towened used to be a pure showjumper, has jumped at HOYS as a junior I believe and his experience really shone through. He was comitted to every fence right from the start and yes he took a few flyers, but I always thought that he looked safe and balanced at each fence and Flint easily rode to the challenge. Its fine to jump fences like that as long as you are in balance, and he was.

Mary , in the pit stop, looked a little too relaxed for my liking. She was smiling, and making a right fumble about her clothes, and no one seemed particularly bothered about helping her get organised with her change of clothes quickly and effectively. Her daughter was helping her, but not in a very efficient or effective way. Other riders were quite different in the pitstop, they had people on hand that were really on the ball with getting their clothes on, and fast.

In short, I do not blame the course designer. I should think that the course designer was bitterly disapointed by many riders complete lack of professionalism in the way that the organised themselves for the challenge. About more than half the field went wrong and could not remember the course. They had plenty of time to study and remember the course. I think that they were simply not used to jumping such a long course where the jumps came up so thick and fast . There were only 3 tricky lines and angles to remember- and a 4th fairly tricky line. But most of them missed their lines way out for those corners. They had more than enough time to set themselves up for it but most of them did not get it right.

The surface obviously wasnt riding well, as so many had poles down in the SJ, but nevertheless the horses looked perfectly happy enough. Saw no slipping.

The dressage was a shambles, to say the least, that Arlene (?) woman did not have a clue. The french had made a piss poor effort at doing something that resembled dressage to music.

So I really do not think that the organisers should be to blame for everything, and that the riders should bear some responsibility.

Please do not shoot me down in flames, this is only my opinion, from what Ive seen today!!
 
I really enjoyed the Dressage, however the course was printed in the programme so could the riders not faniliarise themselves with were everything was, in a rough way like we all do when we do a dressage test.

I thought the course should have been more flowing, more like the British open ect, with x-c and showjumps mixed in and no bloody pit stop just make them sj in a body protector! Maybe a optimum time and penaties for too high or too low!

The dressage needed to be more important, 20 seconds just was not important when no-one could even get round the course!!

I would like to see it a again but with so much improvements!!!
 
Ouija_Board
you cant really judge people on how fst they bloody change their clothes, thats rediculous.
by reading your comment you had no sympathy for mary what so ever, just critisizm. I dont want to make a thing, but if it was your horse how would you feel, and her line wasnt completely off, i would like to see you trying to do it on a huge striding horse like Cavvy!!
>:(
 
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I was sitting behind the double of corners where Cavvy fell, and Marys line to the corner was way,way off from a long way away. I thought that she was going to run straight past the corners her line was so off. She made no attempt to correct the line until the very last moment, actually in the last two strides she veered right, and somehow got Cavvy pointing the right way. Cavvy very genuinely jumped for her, managed to scramble the first corner, and unfortunately , didnt quite make the second corner.

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I won't shoot you down in flames
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Now I couldn't see the line from where I was as I was side on to the corners so it is interesting to hear your comments about the line she took as from where I was she looked straight. I won't comment further though as as said it is a tradegic undeserving end to the day...
 
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And I do believe he didnt travel very far.

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I think once thy got him out of the arena he was pts on site.

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Yep, he did not travel far - the stables were right next to the stadium.
 
It just shows the mindset of the rider at the time I think.

Of course I have sympathy for Mary, I honestly am so sad and upset about what happened. and of course there is no way I would be able to ride Cav as well as mary.. But Were you behind the corners? Did you see the line to the corners?? Unless you did, then you cannot possibly pass comment on that, can you?
 
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Ouija_Board
you cant really judge people on how fst they bloody change their clothes, thats rediculous.
by reading your comment you had no sympathy for mary what so ever, just critisizm. I dont want to make a thing, but if it was your horse how would you feel, and her line wasnt completely off, i would like to see you trying to do it on a huge striding horse like Cavvy!!
>:(

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Eeek, as a new member of the forum you won't know many of us and how we post. Ouija Board would have meant no harm with her comments and I am sure that she feels for Mary and all like the rest of us. Please don't start to jump down people's throats, get to know posters first, you may understand things a little better then
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Ouija_Board -

I can't comment on Mary's line to the 2 corners as I was viewing from a different angle, but she certainly seemed to veer to the right at the second, whether intentional or not. Such a terrible shame.

In my opinion, you are pretty much spot on with your other comments. I went with a friend and we were astonished at some of the riding - yes, the course was too technical for the small space, but most of the riders were really chasing the time, so even the easier fences became more technical.

For example, the 5th XC fence was a reasonably straightforward table, but after the bank most riders came round the 1st fence on such a sharp turn that the horses only got one or 2 strides to prepare for it. There was plenty of room so a wider, more balanced turn would have been easily achieveable and would give the horse a break to prepare for the next question.

Personally, as some others have said, I would like to see this event again - but there are many lessons to be learnt and given the appauling results today I expect this will be the last.
 
She looked straight to me too - I was sat basically where C was. I wondered why both Cavvy and Lenamore seemed to dive right at the second corner, Lenamore did it twice, and wondered if it was to do with the positioning of the red flag - that corner was pretty unforgiving and not many who jumped it left both flags up - I thought it was a bit tight between the two flags. I didn't think she was on the perfect line or stride, but I didn't think it was particularly duff either, I just think it was a freak accident, and very very sad.

As for the riders not preparing - were you aware they changed the SJ course between last night's course walk and the 30 mins they got today between the dressage and the jumping phases? Because a lot of riders felt they had walked the SJing and so concentrated on the XC - which was to their detriment and accounted for where Nicolas Tuzaint went wrong - he jumped the old course.
 
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I was there. Thought the going looked ghastly,like a greasy ice rink...everyone bar Oli was tentative. For 6 horses out of 20 to finish says it all and I am afraid a fatality makes it tragic and sickening event. Like everyone else, my heart goes out to poor Mary...
The heart of the problem was the money....it turned the whole thing into a circus.I think that some riders and owners would have balked at running their invaluable horses over that course on that ground if there had not been so much pressure to make the event a success/entertain all of us/take a shot at the huge prize money. The string of elinantions and the evident unease of most of the horses( Lenamore and Flint Curtis/ Shaabrak being notable exceptions)made me begin to feel that I was In Ancient Rome's coliseum rather than a sprting arena and the truly harrowing sight of a gorgeous horse surrounded by blue plastic, patently a fatality on waiting put the nail in EE for me(for what that's worth). to 'distract' us, the commentator started trying to jolly things up by reminding us that soemone would be going home with a big fat cheque.Oli Townend was just below us, looking as if that cheque might stick in his throat, as he watched teh screens go up and then helped the ambulance extract itself( with difficulty) from the arena. Everyone, I am sure, felt desperate at the sight...and maybe many, like me, felt a real sense of moral discomfort that a noble animal had been broken in the course of an 'entertainment'. Yes, horses get killed eventing....but this was not eventing. It was closer to stunt or circus riding, in my view.
And to bat on, much of the commentary was, imo, inappropriate and crass..(>>"the event has claimed some scalps.." just after Cavvy's tragedy was just one instance.
Good on Bettina for pulling out after the show jumping. 14 horses were ritually humiliated. some of them may have lost confidence, If I was lucky enough to own a top horse, i would not risk him in this format which does not play to his natural strengths and ability to gallop and jump...
Not a good day.

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I agree with this completely. I was there and found it painful from start to finish. Those horses should not have been asked to do that today. And money is quite clearly at the root of why they did run. I am so so upset for Mary and in awe of her strength as if it had me I'd have cried out loud and the entire stadium would have heard me. It has an horrific experience and I will never ever go to an other one. If indeed there is one.
 
sorry if i sounded a bitcritical and im sorry to take it out on you i didnt mean to. i maybe just misinterpreted your comment.
but my cousin was sitting at c practically and she video's the whole lot. horrible ting to have on your phone iyam.
sorry i didnt think it looked skyew.
sorry if i sounded a bit agressive i didnt mean to be.
 
I was sat to the side of the boat house waterjump, so quite a way to the far side of C, anyway, I could watch from behind every riders whole approach to the corners as soon as they turned for their line.

I had no idea about the change of course overnight, in which case, I do totally appreciate the riders who went wrong in the SJ, but that still doesnt forgive the riders that got their xc course wrong and missed their lines.
 
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Not blaming her in any way but it is a similar problem on the same horse.


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Or from an alternative viewpoint - it was the same course designer....hmmm.
 
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Thanks Wizoz, was simply stating my view on what happened, doesnt mean that it is right or wrong
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And good for you for saying what you believe and not blindly following the crowd - you shouldn't need to apologise or feel bad for that. I don't agree with you (
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), but I do have a lot of respect for you for saying it given the overwhelming opinion to the contrary.
 
I really wasn't sure about this event from the minute I heard of it, sounds as though my fears were correct, I wasn't there but from what I have read from others that were it was a shambles.
If it is ever run again lots to learn for the organisers and course builder by the sounds of it.
This event will forever be marred by it's beginning I feel. I would like not to see it run again but that is just my opinion.
Eventing should be outside run over galloping course with few technical questions - never have liked the introduction of all the skinny's etc.
I don't event and probably never will but it is a sport I love with a passion and to see it be brought so low of late really saddens me.
 
sorry if i am going to be accuused of name dropping or one upmanship again but some things on this thread are really getting on my nerves.
Pierre Michelet is a very experienced ourse designer who ppraises were unaminmously sung but eh competitors at pau this year a great many of whom competed today. He hasnt done a course like this before becsasue there hasnt been a contest like this before. He is always very technical and invariabliably makes good use of skinnies etc. This was not his fault. Nobody took into account that this pitch wasnt laid to be galloped and jumped on by creatures weighting a ton and wearing meatal shoes with studs. IT IS A LAID PREPARED surface and as such bears no resemblance to riding on a field or even a prepared JUMPING surface like HIckstead.
Second in mary's own words at Pau ( sorry to name drop but i had a job to do) she took a pull too many coming into that fence (which was the part of a related distance combination) and she said she was lucky cavvy didnt put down at the first part cos she got it so wrong, at no point did she mention the course designer.
third perhaps we ought to bear in mind how much money was at stakes here and maybe one or two riders made a few errors of judgement under the pressure. to put it in perspective William Fox pitt had to come first and second at Burghley to get money even close to this.
if this runs again next year, i am sure there will be changes in many area's but this wa the first attempt and as i understand it until mary's accident, the regular spectators were loving every minute of it. which was the point, wasnt it?
 
I was there. There was alot right with the event, and also alot wrong.

The dressage was enjoyable, and I think even "non horsey" people enjoyed it, as it was diffeent to the norm, and was entertaining. Arlene Phillips was a waste of space, but her mark made up a very small part of the overall score, so I dont feel that realy made much of a difference.

The surface didnt seem to jump amazingly well, but I dont think it caused particular problems with the horses well studded up. Didnt see any of the eventers slip once, shame about TPT's lack of prep tbh.

The XC was tough, but it was the first event of its type, and tbh a majority of the way it did what it should do, rewarded good rounds, and penalised bad rounds with run outs/stops with no harm to anyone. Flint skipped round, as did Shaabrak, and Rock Model, Balincoola had a few sticky moments, but as WFP said, he is a spooky horse anyway. Alot of the riders seemed at a loss at how to ride it, and the prob was the course was big and technical with no time for the horse to really get its blood up and get jumping. Flint jumped round very well, but I think that was almost because Oli was challenging him a bit, the horse got his blood up and really jumped well. Shaabrak was just pure class.

The corner falling in was a bit of a disgrace tbh, but the course builders will learn from that (hopefully!) Mary's accident was a freak one, she was off the second corner, and unfortuately sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes you cant, nothing could have been changed, just a huge huge upset that in this case it had the result it did
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The organisers etc are all very experienced horse people, and I think all the problems will really be looked at in great detail an worked on hard. I think it will be a great shame if it does never run again, as I do think it has alot of potential, but the balance needs to be got right, and also riders need to know how best to ride it, and the course does need to be looked at on technicality maybe, takiong into account the spookyness and atmosphere in an arena such as the millenium. Cav was dealt with in an excellent way, and in the same way as horses with broken legs at any indoor stadium (Olympia/HOYS) would be dealt with. I very much doubt he would have been in alot of pain and was clearly loving the job before the accident happened
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Just for the record, BE havent paid for the competition at all. It is a completely seperately funded competition, so no money has been taken out of the BE purse so to speak. Also, the stadium seats upto 85000 people hence why it looked a bit empty. When it was running well, it was very good and great spectator viewing. Just such a tragic end to the day which I think has tarred peoples views perhaps not in a clear way.
 
Actually I honestly dont think that alot of the problems were hisfault... I thought it was a mistake to have the corner with the same surface as the bank but hey, that was one mistake.

I honestly dont think that had those fences been spaced out over x minutes of galloping, it wouldnt have caused the trouble it did

I just honestly think it was underestimated that by putting a horse into an atmosphere where more adrenalin was stimulated, so less blood gets to the brain and more to muscle, would increase the time that a horse needs to think about what it just jumped. Upping the adrenalin in a situation like this would have been enough, probably without decreasing the time the horses had to think/digest what they had just done with their feet.

Not even including Cavalier in this, but I saw ALOT of horses that looked more and more puzzled as it went on, and Gandalf especially looked as if he needed to go off and gallop for 30-40 secs before being presented to something else... I think Mark Todds and Lucinda Greens comments were spot on honestly...
 
You know what? I don't think we were all loveing every minute of it...From the moment Tara PP slipped...repeatedly..I started to feel sick. It is a horrible feeling jumping on a surface with no cut at all...and those horses looked to me as though they felt they could go over at any moment, studs or no studs....As the first few went round and get eliminated, watching felt more and more uncomfortable....and I go back to the commentating.."Oh the thrills and spills..." etc. Well, I am sorry...I don't go to watch eventing for spills at all. I go to see talented scopey horses flow round good , galloping courses under the expert guidance of confident, competent, consistent, occasionally resourceful, riders. Today it felt as though it was only a matter of time before tragedy struck, it had that sense of grim inevitability...not least because so many rounds were about lucky breaks, survival and super genuine horses. Some of the riding was close to shocking, with horses thrown at fences with little preparation..
As I have remarked in an earlier post, there was something about this event which was tainted with the less attractive aspects of a spectacle...and I really did feel that we were at the circus of Ancient Rome...except that we were all holding our breath praying that noone came seriously unstuck....that is NOT eventing. It was equine poker or russian roulette...Not pretty.
 
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I was there. There was alot right with the event, and also alot wrong.

The dressage was enjoyable, and I think even "non horsey" people enjoyed it, as it was diffeent to the norm, and was entertaining. Arlene Phillips was a waste of space, but her mark made up a very small part of the overall score, so I dont feel that realy made much of a difference.

The surface didnt seem to jump amazingly well, but I dont think it caused particular problems with the horses well studded up. Didnt see any of the eventers slip once, shame about TPT's lack of prep tbh.

The XC was tough, but it was the first event of its type, and tbh a majority of the way it did what it should do, rewarded good rounds, and penalised bad rounds with run outs/stops with no harm to anyone. Flint skipped round, as did Shaabrak, and Rock Model, Balincoola had a few sticky moments, but as WFP said, he is a spooky horse anyway. Alot of the riders seemed at a loss at how to ride it, and the prob was the course was big and technical with no time for the horse to really get its blood up and get jumping. Flint jumped round very well, but I think that was almost because Oli was challenging him a bit, the horse got his blood up and really jumped well. Shaabrak was just pure class.

The corner falling in was a bit of a disgrace tbh, but the course builders will learn from that (hopefully!) Mary's accident was a freak one, she was off the second corner, and unfortuately sometimes you can get away with it, sometimes you cant, nothing could have been changed, just a huge huge upset that in this case it had the result it did
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The organisers etc are all very experienced horse people, and I think all the problems will really be looked at in great detail an worked on hard. I think it will be a great shame if it does never run again, as I do think it has alot of potential, but the balance needs to be got right, and also riders need to know how best to ride it, and the course does need to be looked at on technicality maybe, takiong into account the spookyness and atmosphere in an arena such as the millenium. Cav was dealt with in an excellent way, and in the same way as horses with broken legs at any indoor stadium (Olympia/HOYS) would be dealt with. I very much doubt he would have been in alot of pain and was clearly loving the job before the accident happened
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Just for the record, BE havent paid for the competition at all. It is a completely seperately funded competition, so no money has been taken out of the BE purse so to speak. Also, the stadium seats upto 85000 people hence why it looked a bit empty. When it was running well, it was very good and great spectator viewing. Just such a tragic end to the day which I think has tarred peoples views perhaps not in a clear way.

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i agree with you.
i think that the tragic accident has made some people more negative about than they shud be.
 
Oh..and the fact that that corner was HOLLOW and utterly destroyed... by a couple banking it( which is what always happens with those corners) was a disgrace! I shudder to think what might have been.....
 
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You know what? I don't think we were all loveing every minute of it...From the moment Tara PP slipped...repeatedly..I started to feel sick. It is a horrible feeling jumping on a surface with no cut at all...and those horses looked to me as though they felt they could go over at any moment, studs or no studs....As the first few went round and get eliminated, watching felt more and more uncomfortable....and I go back to the commentating.."Oh the thrills and spills..." etc. Well, I am sorry...I don't go to watch eventing for spills at all. I go to see talented scopey horses flow round good , galloping courses under the expert guidance of confident, competent, consistent, occasionally resourceful, riders. Today it felt as though it was only a matter of time before tragedy struck, it had that sense of grim inevitability...not least because so many rounds were about lucky breaks, survival and super genuine horses. Some of the riding was close to shocking, with horses thrown at fences with little preparation..
As I have remarked in an earlier post, there was something about this event which was tainted with the less attractive aspects of a spectacle...and I really did feel that we were at the circus of Ancient Rome...except that we were all holding our breath praying that noone came seriously unstuck....that is NOT eventing. It was equine poker or russian roulette...Not pretty.

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Absolutely share your views. Felt sick from the minute I saw Jody and Tara do their little jump thing. Started to feel a little better when Lucy and Oli made it look jumpable. Mary's accident was a result of the fact it was slippy, the horses were so distracted by the atmosphere, and so overwhelmed by the number of questions. Even the 'PR' voices amongst us who were there today must know that deep down even if they can't publically admit it...
 
yup agree with you two... they were lucky it was the plant pot that went through the corner and not Gandalfs leg... when theyve had the money (albeit from private investors) involved in it that they had, would it really have killed them to take x hundred pounds away from the prize fund to build a good solid fence there? Or even a hedge one, anything but the same as the bank???
 
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and for anyone critisising the way cavvy was put down. his leg was hanging and was obviously in so much pain, so why leave a horse in so much pain for an ambulance journey and just put him out of his misory asap!
would you want your horse to be in so much pain for longer thatn he/she had to??

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As far as I'm aware he was sedated straight away and they used a hand held sling to support some of his weight as he was walked onto the trailer. John killingbeck would have done everything in his power to ease cavvy's suffering I can assure you.
 
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