Where do i stand legally with mis sold horse?

Miss L Toe said:
I have not trawled through every post, but it seems clear to me that the OP is not an experienced buyer, otherwise she would not be looking for a schoolmaster type.
I don't know why anyone on here should take the "side" of the vendor, who has given no guarantee, and has not taken the animal back.
If I wanted a nice horse to do a bit of fun type competing, I would not expect to "wear spurs and crack on at a fast canter" when competing.
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we only know how the horse was described to her, not how she portrayed herself to the vendor, :)
 
martlin said:
An unsettled horse could be tricky away from home, but this one didn't cause any concern until in the ring itself.
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I own an introvert like this. He doesn't show his emotions at all, he is as quiet as a lamb, then when thinks have built up too far for him to tolerate, he explodes from nowhere. That "moment too far" comes when he feels under just that bit too much pressure - a canter transition that he is unbalanced for is the commonest one. If he was a showjumper then that pressure of starting the round proper and leaving the collecting ring would set him off.

It's possible maybe that this horse is very unsettled at having been sold and will be OK in time when he trusts the rider. Meanwhile, though, it'll need a very confident rider to sort him out. It also sounds very suspicious that they gave money as a reason for selling him and then bought a new horse :(

OP I suspect that going to law over this would be very, very stressful. You might win, but you might not and if you don't it will cost you an arm and a leg in your costs and theirs. You might be better off getting the horse ridden by a very experienced trainer in the ring a few times and trying to crack this behaviour with time and patience, if you like him as a person.

Good luck with this, it's a horrible position to be in :o
 
Miss L Toe said:
OP, go with your gut feeling, it looks like you have been mis-sold and if they will not take him back, I think this confirms it.
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No it doesn't. It just means that they have already spent the money she gave them and don't have it to buy the horse back with. It may have been on a carpet, holiday, a horse, but it doesn't mean that the one they sold was missold.
 
I'm another one who agrees this is nothing to do with the horse 'settling in'.

I feel for you, because he's not what you thought you'd bought. But if a legal opinion suggests that you don't stand much chance of proving he was mis-sold to you (and I think it's worth seeking that legal opinion), then the only option, other than selling him on again, seems to be to try to overcome the issue.

I appreciate you'd like to jump him, but you do mention he's destined for a range of activities. Could it be worth taking him to some small dressage events to see if he behaves the same way? Dressage arenas aren't always enclosed in the same way as a SJ ring might be, with an obvious (to the horse) 'gate' to a collecting ring, and with no fences in sight he might be a little less stroppy.

Another tack might be to go to some small shows and just go in the clear round ring (if they still exists these days?!).

It sounds to me that if the previous owners felt they had this cracked, there could be an element of him trying it on with you. That's not to suggest that it isn't a problem, because it is, but we all know that some horses might try to get out of an uncomfortable situation with a new person in charge. The old owners might have used the 'whip and spurs' approach because they didn't have the inclination/skill to address it in a more sensitive manner. Maybe, with some professional help, you might just get there.

Good luck - what ever the outcome I hope it's good for both you and him x
 
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Going to court needn't be particularly costly, as far as I am aware it doesn't cost much to go through small claims court. And certainly paying professionals to sort the problem can be equally costly without guaranteed outcome.
 
MagicMelon said:
Did you not ask to see the horse out competing before you bought him? At the end of the day, you saw in the videos that they "really kicked" him past the gate, why didnt you pick up on it then and ask them about it? It sounds like this is a quirk of the horse and they've learnt a way to deal with it therefore dont see it as any issue. Personally, I'd ask the seller to ride the horse at a competition so she can show you how its done. Some horses have a "knack" to the way their ridden. If its simply a case of kicking him on a bit going past the gate (which TBF a lot of horses seem to have issues with) then that's not a major big deal really? At the end of the day, just because they didnt tell you he needed to be jumped in spurs and there was a way to get him going - it would have been up to you to ask I'm afraid.
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Crikey, so when I want to buy a horse which is sold as suitable for an amateur, I should wait until it is at a competition before I make up my mind whether or not to give the owner a cheque. I would never be able to purchase a good horse, as it would be sold from under me.
When people come to me, to buy a pony [I have limited experience as a seller]. it is pretty obvious once they get on board whether they can ride or not. If I have doubts, I tell them the horse is not for them. If they insist they have an instructor on hand and are experienced, and are perfect owners for the horse, it is difficult to do other than take their money. The fact is in this case, the opposite occurred, the purchaser was a novice and the vendor took their money.
 
cptrayes said:
No it doesn't. It just means that they have already spent the money she gave them and don't have it to buy the horse back with. It may have been on a carpet, holiday, a horse, but it doesn't mean that the one they sold was missold.
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They would have been aware the horse was likely to bounce back, and they should have kept the money in the bank. It matters little whether they have spent the cash, what matters is that they sold a horse which was not fit for purpose, that is for the purchaser's purpose.
I could sell my pony ten times over if I advertised him as HOYS potential, with red rosettes on every outing: yes, he was in one class, and was the only one there!
He is sound and has no known vices [!], and is a great character who has never been sick or sorry.
In reality he will take advantage of any beginner, will untie himself when I am not looking, will break out of any field which uses blue twine to tie up the hinges/latch.
If he is in his stable and there are carrots on the go, he will look as though butter will not melt in his mouth, and while your back is turned, will tiptoe out of the barn.
If the grass in his field is not as good as the field next door, he won't stay there very long. If he is feeling randy he will get it all out, and I have seen him smiling when he is feeling coltish!
 
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martlin said:
Going to court needn't be particularly costly, as far as I am aware it doesn't cost much to go through small claims court. And certainly paying professionals to sort the problem can be equally costly without guaranteed outcome.
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I'm not sure how it happened, but in 2000 a friend of mine sued a seller over a £3,000 point to pointer, which was under the limit for small claims at the time. He ended up in the High Court, winning, with costs of £10,000 and £3,000 for the value of the horse awarded against the seller - and she bankrupted herself so as not to have to pay him. He never got a penny.

On top of that, it dragged on for a loooooong time and was incredibly stressful and probably contributed to the break-up of his marriage.

This poster doesn't sound as though she would be likely to represent herself in court and if she has to pay a solicitor for advice, never mind for representation, then in many people's books that would be a lot of money.

Most of all, though, it's the stress. I've tried suing a vet for an incompetent vetting, and it just wasn't worth the sleepless nights.
 
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Miss L Toe said:
Sorry, they should have been aware the horse was likely to bounce back, and they should have kept the money in the bank. It matter little whether they have spent the cash, what matters is that they sold a horse which was not fit for purpose, that is for the purchaser's purpose.
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Why was the horse likely to bounce back to them?
 
Miss L Toe said:
Sorry, they should have been aware the horse was likely to bounce back, and they should have kept the money in the bank. It matter little whether they have spent the cash, what matters is that they sold a horse which was not fit for purpose, that is for the purchaser's purpose.
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I don't think you are right with this. A private sale does not have to be "fit for purpose" - that is from the sale of goods act, which does not apply to private sales. It has to be "as described", and for all we know, it may be just that. It would not be the first time that a buyer has bought a decent horse which took the mickey out of them because they weren't the strongest rider, and it won't be the last, I'm sure.
 
cptrayes said:
I'm not sure how it happened, but in 2000 a friend of mine sued a seller over a £3,000 point to pointer, which was under the limit for small claims at the time. He ended up in the High Court, winning, with costs of £10,000 and £3,000 for the value of the horse awarded against the seller - and she bankrupted herself so as not to have to pay him. He never got a penny.

On top of that, it dragged on for a loooooon time and was incredibly stressful and probably contributed to the break-up of his marriage.

This poster doesn't sound as though she would be likely to represent herself in court and if she has to pay a solicitor for advise, never mind for representation, then in many people's books that would be a lot of money.

Most of all, though, it's the stress. I've tried suing a vet for an incompetent vetting, and it just wasn't worth the sleepless nights.
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I can sympathise with your friend, not quite sure myself how that could have happened either :o
Nonetheless, I think it is the sort of decision the OP needs to make for themselves, I'm afraid I am a belligerent so and so and would probably sue out of principle!:eek::p
 
Imo there's only a legal case to answer if the horse is not as described, which none of us know. I'm not saying its morally ok but if the ad said for instance jumping well at home, excellent flatwork there's no indication its the same to compete. Likewise if the ad said ideal experienced horse to introduce novice rider to bs, then it clearly isn't as described.
 
martlin said:
I can sympathise with your friend, not quite sure myself how that could have happened either :o
Nonetheless, I think it is the sort of decision the OP needs to make for themselves, I'm afraid I am a belligerent so and so and would probably sue out of principle!:eek::p
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Yeah, I was like that 25 years ago over my vet claim. When I gave it up because the stress wasn't worth it and my insurer's paid out anyway, I had to pay nearly £600 (a lot more money then!!) of the Vet's costs. And that WAS in the small claims court and I did all the work myself :(
 
OP, have you spoken to the seller to try and ask to return the horse? They might be more understanding than you think!

I bought what was thought to be a safe and steady horse but was actually anything but. I phoned the guy up who said he was happy to have it back as he didnt want anyone getting hurt, and he was genuinely unware of its issues. I was all ready for an arguement but he was lovely and even lent me a horse whilst I was looking for another.

Although perhaps that was a cunning plan as I ended up buying her :D

Anyway, I really feel for you and hope you get it sorted.
 
Miss L Toe said:
I have not trawled through every post, but it seems clear to me that the OP is not an experienced buyer, otherwise she would not be looking for a schoolmaster type.
I don't know why anyone on here should take the "side" of the vendor, who has given no guarantee, and has not taken the animal back.
If I wanted a nice horse to do a bit of fun type competing, I would not expect to "wear spurs and crack on at a fast canter" when competing.
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Nowhere in the original post does OP say she was looking to buy a schoolmaster in fact she says a horse that knew its job and needed work in other areas that's not a schoolmaster in fact if I was the seller following this thread I would print that out as it describes where she's at , the horse has a proven record (doing BS) they have videos of it completing, and it seems that it needs work in some areas.
Many competion horse are used to competing in spurs to many many horse thats normal many need positive riding many know when they can take the piss very quickly as they suss a new rider, some need time to trust a new rider each horse is different.
DWB are bred as sport horses quite sharp and quick to learn both the good and bad.
 
I am well used to nappy ones and to be honest have had poss the worst ring sour napper ever known. Managed to turn him round but he will revert whenever a new rider tries to ride him at a show. With me he's easy. Chances are its the same situation, he's taking piss cause he knows he can!
 
OP- The horse was described as quiet to ride etc etc, but did the actual conversation consist of "he is the same at home as he is at shows" or along those lines?

They may well have sold you a horse as described, which he is, at home. Did you ask questions about how he was at shows? Obviously if they out and out lied to you and said he was quiet as a lamb then perhaps pursue it further. However, if the conversation about his behavior at shows did not occur, then they might have assumed that you weren't interested in taking him out, or the more probable answer of you didn't ask so they didn't say. It's a bit odd that you were only just having this conversation on the phone with them about his behaviour when out, surely if you wanted him to compete then you would have asked all this at the viewing, in which case, they have lied.

It's a tricky one, you've got 3 options. Keep him and work on it, return him to the seller if they will have him, if not take them to court, finally sell him on/PX him with something more suitable.
I'd talk to the previous owners and have a good chat about it first. Then, if you are thinking about legal action, see if you can work out the costs rougly, seek some free advice from a solicitor, and give it a good hard think on whether it will be worth it in the long run.
 
This horse must have some ability otherwise it would not have got to the standard it has. Some horses can be quirky about how they are warmed up for a competition and it does take a bit of time to get to know how to treat them just before a competition in order to get the best out of them. To me it sounds like a combination of taking the P on the horses part and inexperience on the riders part. If the OP is very experienced I apologise, I am just going on what I have read. If it were mine I would be having some instruction over courses of jumps, and try a few small scale competitions to start with, to see if the right buttons can be pushed, before writing the horse off as uncontrollably nappy.
 
vickyb said:
This horse must have some ability otherwise it would not have got to the standard it has.
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I just have to ask: what sort of standard have you got in mind? If it is grade C SJer you are referring to, you know that a grade C is a horse registered BS with not very much money on the card, or even none? So, in theory of course, the horse might have never been to an affiliated show and still be a grade C, it only takes a registration fee :)
OP does not anywhere mention the horse's actual standard/level.
 
Still would like to hear from the OP a description of the horse's BS record. Its very easily checked. Grade C simply means that the horse is BS registered, but if it has recent winnings/double clears ie in the last month or 8 weeks, then it would kind of prove its the rider, not the horse. And if it doesn't, then its perhaps a red flag that you would alert you to the horse not being the straightforward competition horse it was described as?
 
As many keep asking, i do have quite a bit experience, have done pc hunting unaffiliated ode. And have always had forward going strong minded ponies/horses. I worked through it with them, but they took the enjoyment out of it which is why i wanted something easier and like i said earlier i am ill quite a lot. I wanted something to do some BE, hunting, dreassage, riding club with. I wanted something that was more enjoyable and easier. He is great at home, and i could not possibly sell him on, so yes i am going to have to work with him which i dont mind as its not his fault. Its just annoying and frustrating as this is not what i wanted, and is going to take such a long time, longer than it could, as it is all going to depend on when i am feeling well. Many of you also say maybe do something other than jump, i intended to, we only took him jumping as it was something he was used to and i thought would be an easy way to get to know him and see how he goes away. Is it not just aswell i found this out now after 2 weeks instead of 2 month? He has done this in the past as i have found out, does that not show its not just me? Also i dont want to ride him the way i have now been told "fast canter with spurs" all of the time, i like a much quieter approach unless it is totally necassary when a horse misbehaves, but its not how i would want to ride all the time.

Also about the videos, in them he is always going round fast and some of you say i should of noticed, i only picked it up looking back at them, seeing the rider put more leg on when the horse broke from canter to trot at the gate, i thought nothing of it at the time.
 
Is it possibly a case of buying a horse which needs to be ridden more strongly in a competition? Like most horses? I'm pretty sure most of my horses that I've competed would have played up new owners after going perfectly for me, because I know exactly how to ride them. I mean, you can get push button horses, if you are very, very lucky, or pay over ten thousand or more. But mostly its about forming a partnership, and that takes time.

What is the horse's recent BS record like?
 
And yes i would consider myself having quite a bit experience.. I have worked on an eventing yard, and on a dealing yard with young warmbloods. Which i don't know more as i get ill quiet a lot, and don't have the energy when i am to be dealing with horses that need hard work.

And i did ask what he was like away, and we were told fine but a bit strong, so he got ridden in dutch gag instead of a hanging cheek snaffle which he was ridden in at home. Nothing else about his behaviour mentioned, until like i said earlier when we got back in touch.

Thank you for replies. Have to wait and see what my instructor has to say after our lesson on Sunday which we are having at a different yard to home. So far the old owners have helped by explaing and saying what i should do, but why didnt they tell me this at the start, i wouldnt of went on to buy the horse if this was the case.
 
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OP - Hope your lesson goes well. I hope you manage to have fun with him and I know he isn't what you expected but you may find he will be a superstar once you get to know him.

I hope so, like you said you do not have the energy for too much stress!
 
but why didnt they tell me this at the start, i wouldnt of went on to buy the horse if this was the case.
Sorry cant quote o. This phone but pippy91 I guess the old owners probably thought that you would not be jumping at the 2 week mark or maybe you are far more experienced then them in the way you portray yourself and they thought you would be a great owner who would be able to manage. Maybe they thought fast canter and spurs were needed due to thier lack of ability.
I am delighted to hear you are hoping to keep horse and look forward to hearing a happy outcome.
 
Sorry if I am repeating anyone, I've not read everything. What does the receipt say? Have you kept the advert? Is it definatley a private seller, try googling the telephone number to see how many horses they have sold. You stand more chance if it's a dealer, more or less no chance of anything if a private sale.
 
I also think I know the horse and the seller. If it is the same horse, they have had huge success with the horse and they sold him (and their wagon) purely for financial reasons and bought a cheap youngster to play with. 2 weeks is no time at all to have a horse and expect it to go out competing at showjumping. I am sure the previous owners would be devastated if they knew what people were saying about them. Take some time to get to know the horse and have some lessons if required, but don't immediately go round accusing people of mis-selling because you aren't immediatley going out winning!
 
pippy91 said:
And yes i would consider myself having quite a bit experience.. I have worked on an eventing yard, and on a dealing yard with young warmbloods. Which i don't know more as i get ill quiet a lot, and don't have the energy when i am to be dealing with horses that need hard work.

And i did ask what he was like away, and we were told fine but a bit strong, so he got ridden in dutch gag instead of a hanging cheek snaffle which he was ridden in at home. Nothing else about his behaviour mentioned, until like i said earlier when we got back in touch.

Thank you for replies. Have to wait and see what my instructor has to say after our lesson on Sunday which we are having at a different yard to home. So far the old owners have helped by explaing and saying what i should do, but why didnt they tell me this at the start, i wouldnt of went on to buy the horse if this was the case.
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I hope your lesson goes well, no horse is perfect and you have found out its weak point quickly no you know what to work on.
It's a common problem horses are hard wired to stay with there own kind and often such problems do get worse with a change of rider as the horse has less confidence.
While some horses nap because they are b's with the vast majority it's causes are routed in lack of confidence due to being rushed at some point whe young.
If this horse where mine I would book into every clinic and course I could everywhere I could get to.
I would go to as many shows as possible it may be that now you know where you are at and are ready for him it be will ok ride him kindly and when you get to the danger spot make sure you turn his head away from the exit and ride stronger use a scary voice if necessary as soon as he goes past it praise him .
If you get into a really nasty nap at the next show them I would be looking at going to shows and going into the ring going past the gate a few time jumping two fences making a fuss of him and coming out I don't care what people think when I am sorting an issue.
If you where to ask me to guess I would say there will be some gaps in this horses basic training and he will need work on the flat ( I love this sort of project)
You say you want to do BE with him but don't say if he's done XC before if he has not be sure to do lots of XC schooling before you try a competion as that may bring the issue to the surface again.
Nappers where my speciality when I was young take heart that they are often the most talented senestive horses as he is good when at home I really would not build this up in your mind into a huge issue I think you will get though it.
A plan is important for shows so you are confident in the ring head away from the gate growl ride on strongly everytime .
Good luck post again if you can be bothered I would love to know how you are getting on FWIW I think two weeks after getting him was a perfectly reasonable time to take him to a show hes nine not four I would have done it but perhaps a bit quick to expect it to go perfectly nothing with horses is that easy !
 
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pippy91 I am finding it very upsetting to read many of these posts sugesting the sellers knew the horse would bounce back or are dealers ect ect i can asure you they are not ,I now have confirmed i do know th ehorse concerned ,that said i am also very sorry that you are having problems with the horse but please be fair and go back and view all th ex owners videos on her facebook you will see he has been nothing but sucessful for them ,i cannot see on any of the viodeos evidence of her having to spur him on past the gate ect or even see evidence of spurs or kicking if anything he looks eager to do the job i have looked at vids from november 11 to feb 12 and the one which was his first time jumping with her and he looks great ,give him a chance to get to know and trust you horses do take time to settle and this can manifest itself in many ways even with seasoned competition horses ,i have over thirty years experiance so i do feel able to comment again i hope you and your new mount get to grips with each other and have agreat time together as the previous owners did .
 
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