Where do i stand legally with mis sold horse?

Thanks for checking that out Calon. I also hope that Pippy91 is able to work through these problems with her new horse. :)

Try not to be too upset by some of the posts on here - remember the poster only knows what has been posted, not the whole story and in some cases they didn't even read the posts very well! :p
 
calon said:
pippy91 I am finding it very upsetting to read many of these posts sugesting the sellers knew the horse would bounce back or are dealers ect ect i can asure you they are not ,I now have confirmed i do know th ehorse concerned ,that said i am also very sorry that you are having problems with the horse but please be fair and go back and view all th ex owners videos on her facebook you will see he has been nothing but sucessful for them ,i cannot see on any of the viodeos evidence of her having to spur him on past the gate ect or even see evidence of spurs or kicking if anything he looks eager to do the job i have looked at vids from november 11 to feb 12 and the one which was his first time jumping with her and he looks great ,give him a chance to get to know and trust you horses do take time to settle and this can manifest itself in many ways even with seasoned competition horses ,i have over thirty years experiance so i do feel able to comment again i hope you and your new mount get to grips with each other and have agreat time together as the previous owners did .
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I am sorry, but the vendors suggested the horse needed spurs and to be cantered fast. If the vendors are not happy about the comments on here, they could arrange to ride it for the purchaser at its next event.
 
calon said:
pippy91 I am finding it very upsetting to read many of these posts sugesting the sellers knew the horse would bounce back or are dealers ect ect i can asure you they are not ,I now have confirmed i do know th ehorse concerned ,that said i am also very sorry that you are having problems with the horse but please be fair and go back and view all th ex owners videos on her facebook you will see he has been nothing but sucessful for them ,i cannot see on any of the viodeos evidence of her having to spur him on past the gate ect or even see evidence of spurs or kicking if anything he looks eager to do the job i have looked at vids from november 11 to feb 12 and the one which was his first time jumping with her and he looks great ,give him a chance to get to know and trust you horses do take time to settle and this can manifest itself in many ways even with seasoned competition horses ,i have over thirty years experiance so i do feel able to comment again i hope you and your new mount get to grips with each other and have agreat time together as the previous owners did .
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Just to support the sellers of this horse.

It is clear to me and probably to many other people on HHO who will not post, that this horse was not missold.

My own belief is that either the new owner simply hasn't given him time to learn to trust her, or she's bought a horse which she is not a good enough rider for, but what has definitely not occurred is a misselling.

Tell the sellers to ignore the previous posts of people, including me, which were written before they knew that this horse's performance was fully documented online on video.


MLT "fast" is a relative term meaning different things to different people. There is nothing wrong with spurs either. Two of my horses go better in spurs, one because he will ignore my leg and the other because he is much less reactive to a touch of the spur than he is to a whole calf pressing his side.
 
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teabag said:
I also think I know the horse and the seller. If it is the same horse, they have had huge success with the horse and they sold him (and their wagon) purely for financial reasons and bought a cheap youngster to play with. 2 weeks is no time at all to have a horse and expect it to go out competing at showjumping. I am sure the previous owners would be devastated if they knew what people were saying about them. Take some time to get to know the horse and have some lessons if required, but don't immediately go round accusing people of mis-selling because you aren't immediatley going out winning!
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I took the horse out for fun no intention of "winning"!!! And he WAS misold! I have his original advert saying "no vices" & rearing IS a vice!! So that does mean he was mis sold!! And how do you think i feel? I am devastated i have a horse that is horrendous for rearing, doing it in hand and with other riders.. Should of been mentioned from the start, not fair on the horse to be fair, he could be passed on and on for this major problem!
 
cptrayes said:
Just to support the sellers of this horse.

It is clear to me and probably to many other people on HHO who will not post, that this horse was not missold.

My own belief is that either the new owner simply hasn't given him time to learn to trust her, or she's bought a horse which she is not a good enough rider for, but what has definitely not occurred is a misselling.

Tell the sellers to ignore the previous posts of people, including me, which were written before they knew that this horse's performance was fully documented online on video.


MLT "fast" is a relative term meaning different things to different people. There is nothing wrong with spurs either. Two of my horses go better in spurs, one because he will ignore my leg and the other because he is much less reactive to a touch of the spur than he is to a whole calf pressing his side.
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^^^^^this

It is fairly obvious from an outsider's view that this horse was not mis sold, it seems to me that he is testing his new rider who does not have the confidence to ride him assertively - not the horse's fault nor is it the seller's.

I also agree that most competition horses are ridden in spurs unless they are babies.
 
I dont think is it fairly obvious - I dont think any of us can really say. There are 2 sides to every story.

No-one posting has seen the OP riding and can comment on her ability levels.

At the end of the day - the horse is rearing and the advert said no vices....I can see how this could be something that happens with a new rider but it could well be that the horse did this previously and in which case he was mis-sold.

For all of you who have bought horses then you must see why the OP feels upset....as so many are sticking up the previous owners then it looks like there may be more to all of this.

I will say though...Whatever any of us think the OP is the one that now has the responsibilty for this horse and he isn't what she thought he was going to be....you have to understand this would be upsetting.

OP - Hope the lesson went well.
 
Missold or not, you just got to suck it up. Buying and selling horses privately is a mostly shite process! It's horrendous for both parties - time consuming and there is always an expectation gap between what you think you are buying and what you are actually getting. One man's problem is another man's quirk.....
If you've spoken to them and they have made it clear from the off that taking him back is not an option, then I don't think it is worth trying to persue the issue. It always ends in tears - expensive ones at that that really, only the solicitors win out of!

Get schooling at home and at shows and make this horse your own. There is no such thing as a total schoolmaster, not really. All horses have hang ups or quirks and you just need to get to know them and all being well, accepting of them.

Try and be positive and take assurance that another poster believes this horse to have been sold with the best of intentions. This bodes well that this horse will come good at some point. I think you need to give it several months to build up a relationship with new horses. Not all of them are conditioned to go the moment they move yards and move jockeys. We can't all be Fox-Pitt etc when we leap on a new horse!

When I bought a new horse, he was loopy-loo the first time I rode him at home and I could have cried. (I think I did *blushes*.) This was not what I had signed up for and I thought I should send him back - but luckily ,my friends and family who are all experienced and level-headed (I am usually but my judgement was clouded being so close to this issue) told me to give it a good few weeks before coming to conclusions.
Conclusion is that this horse will need work but it does mean well. At some point in the future he will be "my" schoolmaster and do everything I want him to do in the manner I expect him to - but with my rational head on, I would fully expect him not to live up to another person's idea of a schoolmaster ...because they all have quirks and no one horse is perfect.

Think positive and you WILL get there. Every horse forms part of the larger learning curve we are all on.
 
I have read this thread with interest, as I am in a similar position, although I wish my boy's problem was as easy as yours!

I'm sorry to say it, but what you have can be fixed - yes, this horse is being problematic, but it's behavioural and can be remedied with commitment and perserverance. If you can ride him at home with no issues, then that is a huge bonus.

Small steps, plenty of time and some professional advice should hopefully see you right, perhaps it's too much too soon for him and he needs to get to know you better?

As for being mis-sold, at least they have spoken to you and told you what they had to do in order to get him through the gate. What I have is a complete and utter bloody nightmare... but that's another story ;)
 
unless you can prove that the horse has reared with his OLD owner, I'm not sure you can prove that he was missold....

It could be the way he is being ridden now, his tack, his feed/regime anything! Maybe he always had it in him to rear, who knows, but that does not mean the sellers hid from you the fact that he rears.

Because something is written in an advert does not mean that the horse will never do it in the future.

Good luck with him, I hope you manage to sort something out so you are both happy.
 
pippy91 said:
I have his original advert saying "no vices" & rearing IS a vice!! So that does mean he was mis sold!!
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Rearing is not a notifiable vice. Those are windsucking, crib biting, box walking and weaving. Rearing, bucking, napping are not "vices". Though nasty, they can be cured, vices usually cannot.

If he didn't do it with the previous owners then he didn't. Hasn't it already been pointed out that there are months of videos of the horse competing on Facebook? It doesn't sound like they had a problem. But even if he did rear with them, the advert was not legally misleading in calling him "vice free".

Legally you don't have a leg to stand on, so save your energy and go get some training this horse to repect you so that you can get the same performance out of him as his last owners have recorded on Facebook.
 
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cptrayes said:
Rearing is not a notifiable vice. Those are windsucking, crib biting, box walking and weaving. Rearing, bucking, napping are not "vices". Though nasty, they can be cured, vices usually cannot.

If he didn't do it with the previous owners then he didn't. Hasn't it already been pointed out that there are months of videos of the horse competing on Facebook? It doesn't sound like they had a problem. But even if he did rear with them, the advert was not legally misleading in calling him "vice free".

Legally you don't have a leg to stand on, so save your energy and go get some training this horse to repect you so that you can get the same performance out of him as his last owners have recorded on Facebook.
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At first I had huge sympathy for pippy91 but now I find it's wearing thin and think its time she looked to herself to find the answer to this problem something has destabilised this horse which appears to have gone well in it's previous home.
Not at any point has OP made any reference to her role in this it's the horses fault its the seller fault.
can she answer how all those round on you tube got jumped if the horse was so horrendous.
Poor horse sounds like he's confused and unhappy.
As for mis sold no I don't think so ,has OP over horsed herself perhaps.
 
I'm not sure it's wise to assume that OP is the one at fault now just because another member has come along and said they know the horse and that it's gone well for previous owners.

Best to keep an open mind perhaps?? After all it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a seller has elaborated or omitted something to get a sale,or the first time that people's opinion on 'well behaved' has differed.

Personally if I had bought something ready to go and old enough to know how to behave and then it put on the perfomance OP describes at it's first outing I would not be best pleased.Settling in and all that stuff is fine,but it is not an excuse for extreme behaviour IMO.

Horses move home,and are sold etc all the time,they don't all need 6 months to 'settle in' each time before they can be expected to do anything surely??
Young horses or ones known to be anxious I would make allowances for,but ones sold for a purpose that know their job I would expect to be able to do their job no matter where they are and who with.

I think you have a case for come back as a mis sold horse OP,and certainly a case for less than honest description,but whether you would get anywhere with that I'm not sure TBH.If you really want to persue it,seek advice from a specialist solicitor,at least would know if it was worth bothering or if it might just be easier to sort the issues out best you can and move horse on if still not happy.
 
I've still not had my queries regarding what the horse was advertised as answered yet, which makes it hard to judge whether it was mis-sold or not. But I wouldn't assume a horse was necessarily an easy ride or a schoolmaster just because its experienced. Even if they know their job, doesn't mean they're anybody's ride.which is why I'd like to know how the horse was described, before trying to guess if it was mis-sold.
 
Ok I know what I am about to say, WILL upset people but here goes.

The said horse could of been everything she/he said he was. But remember this:

Horses cannot speak and EVERYONE rides differant...............You could be leaning to far forward, back, more pressure on one side of the saddle. Using your leg in a spot he isn't used to.
Or Pulling to Much on His face.
The Horse has to get used to the way you ride, Just like you need to get used to the way the horse goes.

Are you nervous then on him? You may have to much energy going thru your body,legs which is making him think OMG what is happening. Sit still and count to 5.

I went to a clinic sat and it was so true what the trainer said. Its NOT the horses fault. After all, its us the rider who is making that horse do stuff.

every horse is differant with every rider. Fact.
Give your new horse time. Bond with him. Dont rush into doing thing before feel 100% at doing thr basics first.
 
pippy91 said:
I took the horse out for fun no intention of "winning"!!! And he WAS misold! I have his original advert saying "no vices" & rearing IS a vice!! So that does mean he was mis sold!! And how do you think i feel? I am devastated i have a horse that is horrendous for rearing, doing it in hand and with other riders.. Should of been mentioned from the start, not fair on the horse to be fair, he could be passed on and on for this major problem!
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Rearing is not a vice. I'm sorry to hear that his behaviour is deteriorating.

I can't remember if you've said whether the saddle has been professionally fitted, and whether the appropriate tack generally is being used?
 
Miss L Toe said:
Rearing is a vice.
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No it is not - it is a behavioural problem.

A horse sold as 'viceless' would be one that does not exhibit stereotypical 'stable' vices; ie windsucking, cribbing, weaving, boxwalking.

When purchasing a horse there are three main questions to ask: Does it have any vices? Has it been known to buck? Has it been known to rear?
 
My pony jumps well at home but is a nappy git at shows so I always have to wear spurs and ride extremely positively, thinking fast canter! It works for us, we have done some bsja
 
My horse is very well schooled an unfortunately I'm not. If I do something wrong in the school he's not very forgiving an he bucks. The more I do wrong the bigger the bucks get, but when one of the yard staff ride him who know what there doing in the school he works brill. He's fantastic with anyone out hacking do maybe he's just not very forgiving of rider error. But you say he's good at home but not when out so obviously not the same as mine. Maybe he needs a break from the competition scene for a while??
 
Oops silly phone! Anyway have done bsja and lots of success unaffiliated, Its just what works for us. I have a young sharer now and he's a nightmare for her, stopping and getting eliminated round tiny courses!! But she's learning how to ride him and soon she'll be in the rosettes! Some horses don't suit the quiet approach, while it may be the 'ideal' way!
 
amymay said:
No it is not - it is a behavioural problem.

A horse sold as 'viceless' would be one that does not exhibit stereotypical 'stable' vices; ie windsucking, cribbing, weaving, boxwalking.

When purchasing a horse there are three main questions to ask: Does it have any vices? Has it been known to buck? Has it been known to rear?
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^^This.

OP, I have not read all of the responses, but I would not automatically think that a horse that naps at a show but was otherwise fine, had been mis sold. Sometimes horses just need time to get confident with a new owner when put into scary situations, such as entering a show jumping ring. Once he gets to know you better he may be fine. If the previous owners did not have him long he has been passed from pillar to post and may just need more time. Did they even compete him?
 
devonlass said:
I'm not sure it's wise to assume that OP is the one at fault now just because another member has come along and said they know the horse and that it's gone well for previous owners.

Best to keep an open mind perhaps?? After all it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a seller has elaborated or omitted something to get a sale,or the first time that people's opinion on 'well behaved' has differed.
.
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But it would be the first time that they had left months of videos of its performance on youtube of it doing exactly what the new owner cannot get it to do. If you doubt the poster, ask for the Facebook page and check, maybe?

My mind was wide open but now I am sure that the horse was not missold.

I'm feeling sorry for the horse and the previous owners now :(
 
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Miss L Toe said:
Rearing is a vice.
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Vices are clearly defined in law, because in law you can return a horse which has a vice which was not declared at sale, whether the buyer asked if it had vices or not. Legally rearing is not a vice.

Vices are: windsucking, weaving, box walking and crib biting where the horse also wind-sucks as it bites.
 
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just another thought

Have you had his teeth and back checked?

Does the tack fit him good? What bit are you riding him in? Try another bit. Not every horse is a snaffle mouth.

You really need to ask yourself - what is making him like this.........................

Do not give up DO Not Keep thinking the seller mis sold you the horse.

As it does sound like you have given up - work thru issues - get vet out to check him over.

Remember count to 5 if you feel scared, as the horse can feel that, and you could be making him scared
 
devonlass said:
Horses move home,and are sold etc all the time,they don't all need 6 months to 'settle in' each time before they can be expected to do anything surely??
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Devonlass have you much experience of the sensitive nature of some of the warmbloods that are bred on the continent? I have no idea if this is one, but it certainly sounds like it. They are the Ferraris of the horse world, very highly tuned, and they do take more than two weeks to settle to a new owner, otherwise Totilas would be out there scoring 10s now with his new, Grand Prix experienced, rider. But he's not. He's very unhappy about the change and he won't settle, but I don't hear Mathias Rath saying the horse has been missold.


Goldenstar that's a really good suggestion. Pippy91 I think you need to do it for your own peace of mind.
 
I doubt that the OP is reading her own thread anymore....

Although a few people on here think she is wrong...she didn't mention the names of the previous owners and IMO was entitled to ask others on this forum where she stands legally? Instead...very few of the replies relate to this point and seem to suggest she cannot ride for toffee instead!

She simply wanted to know where she stood as she is upset.

We've established that so far legally she cannot do anything, she has said she is keeping the horse and working with her instructor so IMO we should be leaving her to get on with it...she is upset enough as the horse is not what she expected.

I happen to agree that some horses need time with new riders and perhaps OP was hasty in her post...but with the bad press surrounding horse buying and selling I can see why she would feel she had been 'duped'.
 
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