WHERE DO WE STAND? - HORSE BUYING NIGHTMARE!!

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littlewhittle

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Hi There,

My mother in law bought a so called school master, for hacking fun rides etc last week. She asked the seller all the necessary questions, vices good to hack/ in company etc, told her what she wanted it for and said that she was a novice rider. She rode him in the school and hacked in round the roads and he was quiet as a mouse. She bought the horse, he passed a full 5 stage vetting and bought him home 10 days ago.

As soon as he arrived he started crib biting, he has chewed half his stable off now, there was no sign of this when we went to see him.... On a more serious note, i have been trying him out in different situations and he is most definitely NOT a school master! Generally he is quite full of himself, he nearly pulled my arm out when i first went to turn him out and i yesterday took him on a sponsored ride to see what he was going to be like as i had my suspicions that he wasn't going to be easy... too bloody right!!! he was a nightmare all the way round, leaping up and smacking me in the face twice jumping into canter, and it all ended when he bolted with me, losing his footing and we both came crashing to the ground at gallop, i was concussed, he got up and galloped off.

I was extremely lucky i didn't get my rolled on and got away with only concussion to be honest and thank god it wasn't mother in law on him!!

It was a private seller, she will not have him back and says he has never been a problem always well behaved but she did notice that he was crib biting a bit!! (and failed to tell us.....)

Just want to know if this has happened to anyone else, if so what did they do and where do we stand with this?

I can understand that he would need time to settle in but this is dangerous behaviour.
 
to be honest with you i know quite a few schoolmasters who would turn into nutters if taken on a sponsored ride.....unless the seller said he was safe on sponsored rides then i cant see a problem, sorry.

Also horses can take a while to settle regardless of whether they are school masters or not. With regards to the cribbing - it can get worse in stressful situations which would make me think he is just unsettled. I would turn him out for a week or so and let him chill out, then start riding him again quietly after that. Some horses take ages to settle into new places.
 
There was a bit about this in horse and hound recently about it so do a search> I believe you could sue them if they do not take him back but im not sure 100%

Poor you there are so many bad sellers making it harder for the genuine ones
 
This does sound suspicious. On the one hand when your Mother in law rode him he may have been just relaxed in his usual home surroundings; but on the other I'd have thought he would've behaved like this as when you rode him.

How many days apart from when he was vetted to when your mother in law rode him? Did the vet take any blood tests? How did the horse appear when he was vetted?
 
Get the advert and read very carefully what it says.

Then document everything that you consider contrary to the advert, then go to a good solicitor.

Sounds like a nightmare - even given that some horses can take a while to settle in to a new home.
 
I think you have two very different situations here..the cribbing and the behavour generally. Do you have anything in writing to say that the horse does not crib as then you would have more comeback...even if it was in the original advert?
Re the behaviour I think you have asked too much of the horse by trying it out in different situations so soon after changing homes etc. There is no way you should have taken it to a sponsored ride so soon, unless it had been doing them regularly before. They need time to settle in before you start throwing new stuff at them to be honest.
 
Poor you, are you sure its a private seller, how long did they have the horse , I think they only have to sell 3 a year to be termed as a dealer. BHS has a legal help line for members.
Did you buy locally, someone may know the seller and be able to tell you if they sell alot
 
Now please don't take this as a criticism... but i wouldn't be taking a new horse on a sponsored ride when i'd only had it for a week. The horse probably hasn't built up any relationship with either of you yet and so is far more likely to misbehave as he doesnt trust you.

As for the cribbing it may settle down a bit once the horse is more settled in. Be aware as well that people also have very different views on what a schoolmaster is - some people are expecting something steady and even a bit dopey while others expect a horse that knows all the moves in the school. It might be worth discussing with the seller what both your understandings of the word was?

I'd say do your research on the legal side but I would also say you haven't given the horse any time to adjust to it's new surroundings. There aren't many horses I've met who are easy to put out on their first day somewhere new! I'll be interested to hear what other people think but I really hope the horse settles and improves for you. Good luck!
 
I do agree much of his behaviour is likely to be because he is unsettled and anxious, but none the less he does seem to have reacted in an extreme way for a quiet schoolmaster! That said I would imagine that the seller is saying that you tried him in different circumstances and made your own assessment of him so why should she have him back.

I suspect your best chance of getting the old owner to take him back is the crib biting rather than the ridden stuff. Did you have him vetted? The vet should have asked if he had any vices. If they lied then that alone could provide you with the ammunition to force them to give your money back. If however you decide to keep him his cribbing might well reduce once he is relaxed in his new home.
 
I would personally give the horse more time to settle. Some take a lot longer than others.

My old horse cribbed and box walked when I bought him, he did not do this in his previous home as I knew him very well. I moved him to a different stable and he stopped right away.

I have also know horses to go nuts when moved to a new yard/sold on who settle and go back to their normal ways after a month or so.

I would give him another few weeks at least. 10 days is no way long enough imo. If hes still the same then go to a solicitor.
 
Get some legal advise...iv been in a situation the same as yours and its supprising how things can change when they get a letter from a solicitor
 
I have re-homed two horses that have come out with behaviour never shown with us at all. All in the first few weeks in their new homes. Realy shocking behaviour! They have now settled and their new families would nnever part with them. It can be very stressful for some horses moveing home and can react right out of character.
One lady i rehomed to i did not know very well, but acquantancies new her. She thought i was a con artist re-homeing nightmares! I was so embarrassed, i only re-home the ones that i know are suitable and they were very well matched, got to know each other before i would let the horse go. They did ask for help and both horses are now their old selves, thankfully.
The same could be true here. I would ring the old owner and nicely explain the problems you are haveing and see what their reaction is. Shock usually means they did not expect it, unpleasant usually means they knew. See how it goes and tell them what you wish to do given time.
Good luck.
 
Agree with everyone above. I'd give the horse a lot longer to settle in its new home - like, a month at least. Just handle it and ride it in the field/school a little

Hack it out with a safe companion, preferably one it has met in the field.

I think that a lot of horses who have lived in the same place for years, are really really unsettled when they move somewhere new. This sounds like the case for this chap.

Be quiet and gentle with it and spend a lot of time just being with it, i.e not riding it, so it trusts you.
And build up any outings slowly.

If all that doesn't appease, then you'd have to sue through the Small Claims court, or higher, depending on how much you paid. So make sure you document everything that's been said when you bought the horse and beyond.
 
Do you have a receipt from the sale of purchase which describes the horse in detail? This will be the biggest part of your defence if you decide to proceed with legal action.

The receipt should describe the horse in detail as well as any unusual quirks or oddities.

Secondly you could have the bloods testsed. If he passed a 5-stage vetting blood is taken and stored for 3 months from the date of the vetting, this could be tested for any banned substances or sedatives which could have previously masked behavioural issues.

Hope you are feeling better soon - concussion is horrible.
 
What a terrifying experience for you and your mother in law may well lose any confidence with the horse. However I do agree with what is said above and the last mare I bought took about 3 months to settle into the horse I knew her to be - she was an asbolute nightmare to begin with, a coiled spring, you couldn't even tie her up without her breaking back. Now though she is so laid back and very easy, but it took some time to get to that stage.

Whatever the outcome here I wish you luck.
 
I definitely think this is a case of too much too soon for this horse. If it has started to crib then that would suggest it is a bit of a worrier to me initially and therefore needs much more time to settle in and get secure in its surroundings.

The bolting is another issue though but without anynof us being there it'd be tricky to just dismiss this horse straight away as noone knows the circumstances.

Give it more time, do quiet work with it to begin with until you know a bit more about its personality. My horse is 17 and is pretty much a school master (as far as I'm concerned) but he can spook slightly and, when I took him on a pleasure ride a couple of years ago he decided on the way back (when we'd caught up with a whole load of other horses) he was so excited he was just going to jog and would not stop. Now this is not extreme or dangerous behaviour but this horse NEVER jogs, never has done before and never has since so the situation was enough to stir him up. all horses react differently so I'd be inclined to give this one a second chance. You haven't mentioned how old it is and do you know if it's ever been out in this sort of group comonay before? It may have found it all too exciting or even too scary and panicked!
 
I definitely think this is a case of too much too soon for this horse. If it has started to crib then that would suggest it is a bit of a worrier to me initially and therefore needs much more time to settle in and get secure in its surroundings.

The bolting is another issue though but without any of us being there it'd be tricky to just dismiss this horse straight away as noone knows the circumstances.

Give it more time, do quiet work with it to begin with until you know a bit more about its personality. My horse is 17 and is pretty much a school master (as far as I'm concerned) but he can spook slightly and, when I took him on a pleasure ride a couple of years ago he decided on the way back (when we'd caught up with a whole load of other horses) he was so excited he was just going to jog and would not stop. Now this is not extreme or dangerous behaviour but this horse NEVER jogs, never has done before and never has since so the situation was enough to stir him up. all horses react differently so I'd be inclined to give this one a second chance. You haven't mentioned how old it is and do you know if it's ever been out in this sort of group company before? It may have found it all too exciting or even too scary and panicked!
 
thanks for all the comments but when we looked at the horse we stressed that he must be excellent in all circumstances, i know horses need to settle but he had apparently been on lots of pleasure rides, hunted, SJ, etc. We have since found out that he had been on loan for 6 months and only arrived back at the yard we went to look at him at the day before we saw him and the previous owner will not give us the number of the lady that had him on loan. which rings alarm bells to me. If this was a genuine sale, the sell should surely be willing to give this information out. I can forgive the crib biting, after quizzing her about this she did admit to me that she had seen him crib bite occasionally but failed to tell us this until we got him home.

Also i must stress he is fine in every way, jumping hacking out etc but he definitely is NOT in company, something that the seller said he was. so he hasn't been naughty generally just had this one problem.. maybe i have asked too much of him but i would have thought that if a horse has been sold as a hacking, pleasure ride hunting school master, i really did not expect him to do what he did merely because he saw a horse in the distance when i rounded a corner. Also we purposely started off at the end of the day so it was quiet, which it was, there were only very few horses around....

it's a bit of a nightmare really..
 
I'm saddened that you've written him off after ten days!
My school of thought was that you always gave a horse a month in a new home before expecting anything of it. he's obviously stressed, which is why he's cribbing so much, and you've instantly decided he's a dud.

How sad when horses aren't allowed to be horses anymore
frown.gif
 
Your best bet to get rid of him is to go for the Crib biting angle. On the back of the vetting certificate the vendor has to sign to say that it has no vices. I did when my horse was sold. If you do have that sort of vetting certificate you have it in writing that they say no it doesn't.
 
With the cribbing have you changed the feed. Some people dont realise that cribbing can also be a side effect of stomach ulcers. There are some fab products in the market now that are designed for horses to combat this. Or if you want a quicker and chepaer source, try pepto bismol.
 
I've just re-read this, and do agree with one or two others actually about too much too soon. I hadn't appreciate that you'd only had the horse for 10 days. It's not terribly long is it??

I bought a new horse last year - and have to say that he was in the field for the first 5 days that I had him. I then spent the next week quitely hacking with and without company. After that I moved on to more exciting things.

It may be that you expect more from your horses immediately that they arrive (if you buy and sell a lot), but for me it was a new experience after having had my previous for many years. So I took things slowly for my sake and his.

I do think that perhaps you need to allow it some time to settle and get to know it's knew environment. Having said that though, if it's cribbing and wasn't declared as a cribber then as far as I know that's grounds enough to sue.
 
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I am sorry but this poor horse hasnt had a chance. I dont doubt the seller has not been 100% with you.

However in the horses defence my 28 year old gelding is a TRUE schoolmaster, however, he would hot up on a sponsored ride for the first hour or two, regardless, if he had been on one or two in the previous months would be calmer....

Any horse that has justmoved is going to go nuts on a sponsored ride unless its dead from the neck down.

I wonder what defintition of schoolmaster means to some people, there is a school master that is correct in its way of going, knows the aids and has seen most situations...then there appears to be this school of schoolmaster "dead from the neck down" breeds required.

It sounds to me that you were looking more for a ploddy experienced type than a true schoolmaster who may not necessarily be novice ride all the time?
 
I'm prepared to go against the grain here ...

yes you might have taken him to a sponsored ride a bit too soon and therefore couldn't really expect perfect behaviour, and yes sometimes they do take a little while to settle.

But I would still expect them to have a few manners if they are a 'schoolmaster' and you have specifically stated to the seller you want to do sponsored rides etc.
And bolting to the point of loosing self preservation/falling would not be on the agenda for me.

And then you have the cribbing, yes it's manageable but it wasn't what you signed up for.

If you have lost faith in the horse then I would threaten to take her to court unless she refunds .....

FWIW - I bought a new horse 4 weeks ago, not an experienced schoolmaster, and it jumped around it's very first solo HT the following week with me. My other horse was out jumping clear and winning at dressage within a month of arriving ... I don't actually buy this whole leave it in the field and give it a pat to help it settle in malarky
 
An old horsey lady told me that it takes roughly one month per years age for a horse to properly settle. Ie 6 year old takes 6 months to settle.

10 days is nothing, it took 6 months for my horse to settle.
 
please don't get me wrong, i have not written him off at all but it is clear that he is NOT ever going to be what my mother in law bought him for. He would be a fantastic horse as a competition schoolmaster but he was not bought for this and the seller knew this. I understand that he may well settle down but i can't see him settling enough for a novice nervous rider. It was stressed to the sell that all he needed to do was hack quietly do pleasure rides quietly in company etc. he was sold as a snaffle mouth ride and she now admits and we have found out, that he has been ridden in a gag and standing martingale, this most definitely is not the kind of tack you use on a 100% every way horse and i cannot see that you cannot see my point sorry.
 
No chance with this I 'm afriad, you cannot prove that something you did since he came home did not cause the crib biting, unless as said earlier, you have it in writing.
But even then, you need to prove that he ALREADY had the viceb4 u bought him.
 
I'm going to stick my neck on the line here and go against the grain a little.
Whilst I agree with everything people have said about it needing time to settle in and she hasnt had it long I still feel that if she was sold the horse as suitable for a novice and as a schoolmaster for a novice then surely it should not behave in this way? I agree also that horses can get wound up in company but if the seller had said it was ok in all circumstances including pleasure rides then that again is totally wrong. It wasn't even the novice rider that was riding it that day?
The cribbing is another matter and the fact the seller had lied about that would lead me to believe she had lied about a few other matters maybe?
 
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