WHERE DO WE STAND? - HORSE BUYING NIGHTMARE!!

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We have since found out that he had been on loan for 6 months and only arrived back at the yard we went to look at him at the day before we saw him and the previous owner will not give us the number of the lady that had him on loan. which rings alarm bells to me. If this was a genuine sale, the sell should surely be willing to give this information out. I can forgive the crib biting, after quizzing her about this she did admit to me that she had seen him crib bite occasionally but failed to tell us this until we got him home.

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I have to say in your position I'd be wondering what other little pieces of info the seller had "missed out"...

Whereabouts did the horse come from? Is there any way you can do some digging and find out a bit more about its past? Have you got its passport? How long had the owner had the horse?
 
I too will disagree with lots of time to settle if I had bought a safe, confidence giver - they should not need months if they are really what they were sold as.

A friend bought a competition jumping pony that knew its job on a Friday - on Sunday she went out and won her class jumping on her - the mare was sold as a jumping machine and she was used to competing and going places.

Jemima and Cairo are bombproof steady types and I would expect them to be taken out by anyone and do anything - and they are not dead from the neck down, just well mannered, well trained and accepting of everything. Even Chancer at 2 would go to a show, stay overnight and do his job correctly the next day in the showring with no fuss - he is that sort of type.

If I had bought a horse that was sold as able to do anything, a confidence giver etc, I would expect within 10 days to be able to take it out to a show etc and not have any problems as the OP described.

A competition schoolmaster, I would certain expect within a couple of weeks to be go out and compete in the area it was sold a schoolmaster of.

Whether she can get it returned is a different matter but one I personally would talk to a lawyer about, especially in view of the fact that it has just been returned from loan - how can the owner be so sure about it?
 
mmmmmmmmm i would also check your 5* vetting form aswell........... for cribbing .........
As for behaviour out on ride i'm sorry that will be do to change of environment and new rider....... sorry
Horses love routine and new home, new routine i would think this is why new horse was not good
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I would defo go back to yours vets and then phone up trading standards if you want horse to go back........
BUT if you like horse why don't you stick with it and go get some lesson?????????? you must of seen something you liked.... originally
But i would say if keeping, find out it's routine and feed was and go back to it. And if it doesn't suit, then slowly change it - good luck with whatever you do
 
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I'm prepared to go against the grain here ...

yes you might have taken him to a sponsored ride a bit too soon and therefore couldn't really expect perfect behaviour, and yes sometimes they do take a little while to settle.

But I would still expect them to have a few manners if they are a 'schoolmaster' and you have specifically stated to the seller you want to do sponsored rides etc.
And bolting to the point of loosing self preservation/falling would not be on the agenda for me.

And then you have the cribbing, yes it's manageable but it wasn't what you signed up for.

If you have lost faith in the horse then I would threaten to take her to court unless she refunds .....

FWIW - I bought a new horse 4 weeks ago, not an experienced schoolmaster, and it jumped around it's very first solo HT the following week with me. My other horse was out jumping clear and winning at dressage within a month of arriving ... I don't actually buy this whole leave it in the field and give it a pat to help it settle in malarky

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i totally agree.....

what is the point of buying something to do a particular job, if it's stuck in a paddock until it "settles"???

i'd want to be on it and "doing" almost immediately..
 
Surely how good a schoolmaster a horse is and how long it takes to settle are two different things? A schoolmaster (and I reads that to be a competition schoolmaster) may well be perfect for the discipline once settled, but all horses are different and some DO get upset when they are moved into a strange home, with strange new people and a strange routine - I can't believe people are saying that a horse should just knuckle down regardless of it's environment completely changing! I've had my horse for just over a year, and in that time I've had to move him 4 times (I'm counting when he first arrived). The first 3 times he was absolutley fine, but the last time he took ages to settle down - I couldn't ride him for about 4 weeks. This was partly because he had had a change of feed along with his move (haylage instead of hay), but he really was unsettled. I've since taken him out where he has had to go in a stable for a while and he's been fine.

You don't know what goes through their heads and unless you are used to riding different horses all the time and horses that are in unfamiliar surroundings with unfamiliar people I believe you should allow a certain amount of time to get to know the horse, let the horse settle in and generally take it slowly for the first few weeks, at least. This isn't a dig at the OP, but I do think the horse should have been allowed to settle in a bit more.

I also wonder whether the seller and the buyer were talking about different types of schoolmaster??
 
Thank you for your helpful replies to put a few things straight the actual advert we replied to was:

16hh 14 year old Holstein gelding, fantastic confidence giver. 100% all ways excellent schoolmaster, hunts, pleasure rides, SJ dressage to medium level and xc. no vices, suit beginner or more advanced. Excellent manners in all situations.
 
I am curious as to what the definition of a schoolmaster actually is. If I was to go and see a horse that was a schoolmaster, I would expect it to be a horse that was very well schooled in either dressage or jumping. I would buy this horse if I wanted to move up a level but wanted something to look after me in the process.

I am a novice and I wouldn't buy a schoolmaster. I wanted a nice sensible horse that I can hack out on and let my confidence grow on. I have this but his schooling isn't great and he needs a little work. I think 1/2 the problem is that people have different definitions of things...

I would have thought your MIL would have wanted a bit more of a happy hacker... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though...
 
You need to speak to a lawyer who will be able to tell you where you stand. If you have a hard copy of the advert and that states no vices and you have this on the vets certificate then you have a chance of getting your money back.

I would also insist on speaking to the loaner. You need to find out what happened there, why he came back and when he came back. If he came back a few days before you saw him then his behaviour now is not due to being unsettled, however it may give you a gauge to work against if he'd been home for a few weeks. If she wont let you speak to her/him then this is a red flag and inform her that you will be getting your solicitor involved.
 
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the actual advert we replied to was:

16hh 14 year old Holstein gelding, fantastic confidence giver. 100% all ways excellent schoolmaster, hunts, pleasure rides, SJ dressage to medium level and xc. no vices, suit beginner or more advanced. Excellent manners in all situations.

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Seems pretty clear to me. You may not have given the horse time to settle. But I think a few alarm bells would be going off for me too.

Of to your solicitor with ya
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EDT; I assume you've had him assessed by an instructor???? You don't say how experienced you are yourself?
 
I feel very sorry for your mother in law. She clearly did tell the seller what type of schoolmaster she wanted i.e one suitable for a novice rider so, presumably, a quiet, well-mannered horse rather than a competition schoomaster which is a different thing altogether.

I feel that the seller has definitely not been honest if she is now "remembering" facts such as the horse has been known to crib bite and it was ridden in a gag and standing martingale rather than being snaffle-mouthed. I know from experience that asking all the "right" questions when buying a horse does not mean a thing if the answers to your question are lies.

Also, I have always had a problem with the fact that one is advised to let a horse settle for weeks or months on end before asking it to do anything even remotely "exciting" and the opposite fact that most dealers only allow a 28 day exchange or refund period. You can't do both can you? I know that this horse was not bought from a dealer (as far as you know) but the same principle applies.

I do hope that you can get your money back from this seller but in my own experience it was impossible, sadly, as the law seems to be firmly on the side of the seller and the buyer has very few rights.
 
Unfortunately if it is a private seller and the receipt says sold as seen and tried you probably won't have much luck.

The only avenue you may have is over the cribbing if it can be proved that the seller new it did this.

Horses do take a long while to settle in some cases, longer if on livery than if they are at home with you.
 
Try contacting Trading Standards. I think I have heard of cases where they have taken selleres to court becouse the buyers claimed the horse was not as described.
 
Well i'm not an international standard rider but i'm not completely crap either!, i event at BE Pre Novice/Novice level dressage to elementary etc have brought on youngsters etc....

If the horse was for me, fine but he's not, (I already have two thanks!!) and all MIL wants to do is have a nice well schooled horse to hack/pleasure ride (which she stressed to the seller) ok it would have been a bonus that he did other things but she did stress that this was not what her main priority was.... will see what time brings i suppose but i know that MIL will not get on him now!!

Have had a more experienced rider (no longer an instructor but used to be) look at him with the same conclusions....
 
Hmm..I think you've no option really other than to go down the TS/solicitor route. It does sound like you should be entitled to take the horse back from what you've said. Good luck with it - I hope your MIL finds something suitable!

Don't forget to post an update
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I agree that sometimes a horse needs plenty of time to settle ie months, but it sounds a little more than being unsettled. I would suggest you do two things

1/ Get the bloods tested
2/Get some legal advice.

Good luck.
 
I am not a solicitor, but I think with respect to vices specifically, you have a come back. During the vetting the vet is obliged to ask whether the horse has any vices and these must be declared. The advert is further evidence of the claim the horse had no vices, which the previous owner now seems to be taking back by admiting it had cribbed. If you want your money back I think the best thing to do is pursue this option.

On the behaviour issue, I am a bit suspicious of the advert. How could a horse be schooled up to medium AND be suitable as a novice hack AND hunt and jump AND be perfect to handle without costing the earth??? Flatwork up to medium requires serious collection which requires a lot of energy. Usually these kinds of competition horses, even if even tempered for competition horses, are not suitable for laid back hacks (I am not saying such a paragon of virtue does not exist, nor that competition horses cannot hack, but bombproof hack plus super competition horse is very very rare, which might indicate that the owner was fibbing to start off with).
 
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Thank you for your helpful replies to put a few things straight the actual advert we replied to was:

16hh 14 year old Holstein gelding, fantastic confidence giver. 100% all ways excellent schoolmaster, hunts, pleasure rides, SJ dressage to medium level and xc. no vices, suit beginner or more advanced. Excellent manners in all situations.

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Make sure you keep a copy of this advert - it will be crucial to any legal case. There seem to be several claims that you can contest:

1. No vices (cribbing IS a declarable vice)
2. Suitable for a beginner
3. Excellent manners in ALL situations
4. Fantastic confidence-giver

Even if the seller was truly a private one you still can take them to court. I know someone who was in a similar situation and took the seller to the small claims court and won. They bought from a private seller and pony was not as described in the advert.

Make sure you have proof of all the points you make - video him cribbing, see if there were witnesses to the bolting/falling incident etc.

Try and do a bit of digging on the seller and the horse's history. Try Googling the seller's name and telephone number to see if other horses for sale ads crop up. If the horse was bought locally then ask around to see if anyone knew who it was loaned to, so you can find out whether this behaviour was typical or not. I do find it very suspicious that they won't let you contact the previous loaner.
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mmm nowhere in the advert does it mention suitable for hacking out alone and in company - normally a good hacking horse will have this in the advert.

It sounds like it might be suffering from seperation anxiety possibly agrevated by moving away from its companions. It can take a long time for a horse to settle it into a new home. It might have been on sponsored rides before but always with a companion it knew or perhaps it thought it was out hunting and the right thing to do was keep up with the others.

It does sound a bit suspicious that it was ridden in a gag.

In my experience everyone has different ideas as to what a novice rider or beginner is. What sort of beginner - someone so nervous they don't want to ride out of the arena or alone?

When I was looking the fiestiest one I saw was one that said suitable for a novice and some of the forward going not for novice riders where not forward going enough for me.

If the horse is a serial cribber the vet should have picked this up as the horses teeth would be affected.

The horse could have been all the lady said prior to it being loaned out but something could have happened to it during the loan that changed it and she might not have been aware.
 
How much did your mother in law try this horse out before she bought it? I am sorry i always feel for the horses in these instances and, as someone has mentioned a 'schoolmaster' in my opinion would be one that could help take someone further in a chosen discipline. Personally I would have been looking for an advert that had the words 'bombproof' or steady hack' included.

Some horses do take longer to settle in than others but yes if they are a well behaved horse then they should have enough manners to look after the rider as it were but this poor horses sounds like it's been away on loan then come back to its owner and then somewhere else. Quite a lot for a horse to take in in a short time in my opinion. I don't think the bit details are that important to be honest. My horse is ridden in a gag, he just seems happiest in that bit (and I have tried many) and I would take anybody out on him (and have done) he is ridden by me and my mum and will compete in dressage/aff SJ and eventing with me and hack sensibly for my mum alone or in company.

Give the horse a bit more time, if not right for your mother in law then try to sell him to someone who he would be more suitable for and maybe look for something with a bit more native blood in. Mine's connemara x Tb (a fab mix in my opinion!)
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I have read your posts & for what it is worth I agree with B&J & newtonpark. The advert you posted clearly said. 14yr old schoolmaster, been out & done A, B, & C therefore why should it get stressed with the change of environment. 14yo horses that have been succesfully competed in many disciplines are quite used to being away from home & doing there job. Next question, did you arrange your own Vet or did the sellers arrange it? (very important) Also in a 5 stage if the horse has cribbed for a reasonable length of time it's teeth will have worn uneven, so the Vet should have noticed & asked the pertinent question to the seller. He should also have taken bloods so I would insist that they are checked immediately. (BTW if there is a possible case against the Vet concerned this is done without charge to yourself. The VDS pay) Is there any way you can trace the loaner from perhaps his vaccination records, perhaps even through the vets that provided the vaccinations? (you might just get lucky) Also I think that if the owner sold a horse that had not been in there yard for the last 6 months & actually stated it to be A B & C it is contrary to trading standards. How can they possibly be sure of any facts if the horse has not been in there care recently.
The longer you leave it the harder it is to prove.
Hope that gives you some food for thought.
Good Luck
 
My friend has one on loan - a been there done that schoolmistress cob aged 17 OTA. When she first got her, the mare was a loony - serious riding problems and spooky as anything. Moved everywhere at top speed with chin on chest in spite of pelham!

Almost a month on, it is now rounding cows up, will be turned out on its own and is a changed horse. Experienced but lapsed friend wanted a plodalong and was seriously going to hand it back. Don't rush to return the horse, but keep making notes.
 
Firstly did you have him vetted and was he blood tested?

Horses can become very unsettled when they move and it can take a long time for a new owner and horse to get used to each other especially if the new owner is nervous. I allow about 2 years for a horse to settle down in their new home with me! This may sound a long time but I expect to be able to hack my horse straight through Central London, go on sponsored rides and go on holidays with me and be completly laid back at all times.

However in answer to your question a private individual cannot sell a horse who they state is suitable for hacking for example and then be permitted to escape liability for an untruth if the horse cannot be ridden, on the grounds they are not selling in the course of a business. If the horse was sold suitable for hacking and does not match up to this term, this can form te basis of a claim whether it was a business sale or not. (See Page 18 Horse and Hounds 10 April 2008).

If you intend instructing a solicitor use a specialist equine solicitor that understand horses such as Darbys Solicitors Tel: 01865811700 www.darbys.co.uk or Withy King Tel: 01225 425731 www.withyking.co.uk
 
No not at all. What I am saying is that it can take many months if not years for a nervous rider and a horse to get used to each other and build up a relationship.

To me a schoolmaster is not an unflappable plod. I would be looking for a bombproof/spookproof horse that will go out by itself or in company first or last and be fully controllable at all times.
 
Ah well I read Novice rider, not nervous rider. As advert says below, suit beginner & excellent manners.
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fantastic confidence giver. 100% all ways excellent schoolmaster, hunts, pleasure rides, SJ dressage to medium level and xc. no vices, suit beginner or more advanced. Excellent manners in all situations.
Also we dont know whether this lady stables at home or on a yard, so the cribbing could be a real problem if a YO won't tolerate it. I would be pretty damn cross personally.
 
Personaly i would be going to a horsey solicitor. This horse is not as advertised, yes i would expect it to heat up a bit if taken out this early but not to bolt to the point of being unable to keep its feet, i might expect a new horse to perhaps display one or two minor vices for the first week or so (one of mine box walked for a week and anouther chewed for a couple of weeks) but not to the point of destroying a stable or to the point of it becoming a problem.

I bought a horse who was a competition school master, not a novice ride by any stretch of the imagination (actualy he dumped me on the floor the first time i rode him at home), but i took him to a show a week after buying him and whilst a little hot he was not dangerous (in fact he won 2 classes). I took him on the beach (in company) the weekend after that, and it yes he did get exuberant but at no point was he bolting (slight lack of breaks yes but never completely out of control). I would expect anything advertised as a novice ride to be as good if not better then my lad was. I would not expect bolting, i would not tolerate it either, anything that is inclined to bolt is not a novice ride.

I do have a pony i term as a novice ride. I once lent him to a friends daughter when her pony went lame the day before PC camp. I loaded him onto her lorry for her but for an entire week she did everything with him i did not even go and see him. New situation, New handlers, Lots of new horses and a nervous 12 yearold child riding a 14hh pony who knew he could very easily win any fight with her. He was snappy and snarly when handled from the ground but we already knew that, but ridden he was a saint, he looked after her, he played all the Mounted games without getting too hot, he went XC in company and was a saint, he instilled so much confidence in her that she took to doing one day events with her own pony and now 5 years on has a 16.2hh event horse and she is out competeing regularly! My pony even went swimming with her! That in my book is a novice ride and a confidence giver.
And yes i expected him to behave and not scare her under saddle, (he is a horrible snarly monster from the ground) dispite the fact that the first time she rode him was at camp!

So in your case i cant say from a law point of view but from my point of view the horse you bought is not a novice ride.
 
I agree with Freshman - this nonsense about it needing to settle in is just that - nonsense. It was bought to do a job, which it was advertised as being experienced to do, so IMO it should be able to go out and do that job straight away pretty much. If it was young or green then that's a different story, but it isn't!

I did a quick poll last night in competition riders to see how many people would buy a new competition horse, established at the level, and take it out at that level the following weekend - the answer was overwhelmingly in favour of getting on with it and taking it, and I can't quite see how this is different, especially as it sounds as though the person taking it on the fun ride was a more experienced person than the person it was bought for in the long term.
 
Last year I bought a bombproof pony for my daughter from a dealer. After a week I could see the change in this pony, he was not fed and out in the field.

Two months later he was no better and my daughter had a very bad fall. I rode him, he tried to bolt whether going up the farm track or in the arena and alot of the questions I had asked about the pony were false.

I took the dealer to small claims court and 7months later he's back with the dealer and I have all the monies back.

Stick to your guns and don't waste time.

Good luck x
 
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