Where to go from here....

stilltrying

stilltrying

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I’d be really interested in any feedback on this with all the knowledge on this forum – anyone interested might want to make a cuppa tho as this is loooong!

So basically I have a 9yo 17h IDxTB and last month we hit rock bottom with me being catapulted into the ground face first.
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Some background…..bought with intention of being fun all-rounder in 2004 as a just backed 4yo. 2006 did a bit of hunting, couple of unaff ODE’s etc. He loves his XC! He’d always been a bit of a clumsy oaf (big sort), and we’d had a couple of falls where he’d lost his back end, once going far too fast indoor SJ round a bend and another on loose ground XC schooling, again on a bend (wasn’t studded up).

2007 started eventing at intro. Did Borde Hill + Brightling, naff dressage/SJ as far too hyped up but clear XC and absolutely loving it.
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Went to chilham and he felt a bit off on the XC and we got elim at the water. Water jump was a bit of question so didn’t worry too much. Went XC schooling afterwards and all fine. Took him to Firle and he threw in a few stops at the SJ practice fences. In hindsight I should have gone home there and then as it was so out of character, but stupidly I went in for the SJ. He basically collapsed half way round the SJ. I think he tried to stop and he groaned and sank to the floor. Luckily for me he didn’t roll so I was able to step off him. I think those watching had thought he’d died as he laid there with his nose under jump, eyes shut, one hind leg out to the side and the other underneath him. Helpers dismantled the jump and he got to his feet after a minute or so, very subdued.

And so began the veterinary investigations….after the ‘collapse’ he wasn’t lame but he wasn’t right either. Physio and vet saw him. Physio said v sore back behind the saddle but wasn’t overly concerned. Vet agreed he wasn’t lame but wasn’t happy either. On lunge he his head would be up with ears pointed back whereas normally he would lollop along in a relaxed frame.

I kept him in work on vets instruction and I can only describe it as a reluctance to push forwards. In no particular order he we tried bute test, he had a back x-ray, which confirmed some spinous process were close but vet was happy to rule out kissing spine. Around this time his saddle started slipping to one side so got that checked and adjusted by highly regarded saddler.

A few months down the line I was leading him and he lost his back end on the road and sat down behind. At this point vet advised not to ride and send him to Newmarket. My vets feeling was it was sacroiliac or possibly neurological. After one cancelled visit he went March 08. On first inspection he was pronounced sound, they kept him and worked him before bone scanning, which came back clear. They then nerve blocked and scanned his hocks which showed suspensory ligament changes. One of which was within the normal range, the other slightly above normal. He also had a second back x-ray which again ruled out KS.

Various options were discussed, rest was ruled out as it wasn’t a new or serious injury. Shockwave was suggested, but as my vet explained the changes in his hocks were what you would expect to see in most horses, we didn’t have the treatment.

Got him home and his behaviour under saddle worsened and he started to refuse to walk downhill. I wasn’t happy with his saddle which was still slipping ever so slightly. I decided to get a new saddle and as he had lost a lot of weight at the vets I tried a wow saddle. He was a different horse overnight. Back to his old relaxed self. I felt we’d reached a turning point. He muscled up, saddle was adjusted and all was well.

During 2008 I concentrated on working on our schooling and having lessons at show venues. We had 2 dressage comps where were placed 1st and 2nd with scores of 71% and 65% - much higher than we’d ever got before.

However…..at a grid lesson at end of summer we tried a tiny bounce fence. He grunted, pulled up short and point black refused to jump anything after that. Cue visit from physio!! Physio said again v sore behind saddle. After usual light duties I got him going again….but disaster struck at xmas.

To cut another v long story short…. I decided to take off his hinds with a view to trialling him without fronts if all went well. 6 weeks in and he somehow ripped both fronts off in the field taking most of his hoof with them and just to finish himself off stood on the toe clip with his barefoot hind rendering completely non weight bearing on one hind and lame on both fronts!! He had about 6 weeks off work and I decided to leave him BF to let his hooves recover and see how he went.

He coped well without the shoes and we started getting out and about spring 2009. I took him xc schooling, didn’t notice any loss of traction and he was really loving it again.

May 09 we went to a hunter trial at chilham = more disaster! Got as far as fence 4, he hesitated, I got left behind, we got all out of shape……but made it over!!!! Then about 4 strides after the fence he went A over T, just shot out from under me. We were going in a straight line and ground was dry, although he was a bit strung out. Cringy photos are here:

http://www.jgphotographer.co.uk/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=090517Class3&id=090517_1379

Luckily neither of us hurt, but gutted and felt guilty for trying XC without shoes/studs. However I discussed with BF trimmer/Physio and both agreed he needed more time to adjust without shoes and to not give up just yet.

Got back out and about in the summer and took him to a combined training event, did nice test but at practice fence he decided to launch himself at least 4 foot over it nearly jumping me off in the process!! Popped a few more times in a more controlled manner before going in for SJ (2ft9). Got as far as 3 strides before fence 3 and he put the brakes on. Represented and jumped but couldn’t get him near fence 4, he was having none of it. Retired and sure enough next day back was very sore behind saddle and right across his quarters. I can only assume his massive over jump at the practice fence pulled something??

I got him going again and after popping a few logs locally I took him on a sponsored ride for a bit of fun. Fun it wasn’t. The first fence I attempted was a suspended log, 2ft6 if that. He locked on and took me into it (he’s always been very onward) but he just failed to take off. He tried to stop but was going too quick and just slammed into the fence. I got fired out the front door landing on my face/chest and winded myself (had forgotten how horrible that is!). Funnily enough this was also at the photographers fence, they aren’t available on line am afraid but I have seen them. Luckily fence was low enough for jez’s head to hit the floor on the landing side and act as an anchor, otherwise I’m sure he would have flipped over.

This was beginning of last month and I haven’t jumped since. At home he still feels to me a little like he is not wanting to go forwards. But I took him to a dressage comp 2 weeks ago and he felt amazing, just powering along and we got some lovely comments and 1st and 2nd in the open. Is that just adrenalin masking soreness?? Last week I took him to some grass gallops and again he felt awesome with no soreness the next day.

I guess I don’t know where to go from here.

Is it a confidence issue?
Is it a pain issue?
Could the hocks have got worse and be causing him to compensate causing back pain??
Or should I have a break then start afresh?
Or should I give up while neither of us are permanently broken.

I am sorry its soooo long!! I will post some pics of our finer moments if I can figure out how to. Any advice at all is really welcomed.
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A beautiful, beautiful horse with some serious issues by the sounds of it. I think you've been incredibly brave to continue riding him.

It will be interesting to hear what others say - but to my mind, this sounds like one to retire to the field, with a heart full of regret.

I'm assuming his feet (paticularly in front) were x-rayed, and his stifles?
 
If he is having so many problems jumping and it is causing him pain do you think it is fair for him to carry on jumping? Because at the end of the day it really is your decision but it is a really hard one to make. I can see from the pics he is a good jumper but if he is doing well at dressage you could potentially use him just for that?

So sorry your horse is having so many problems though
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, hope they are all resolved soon
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Oh god sounds like you both have had a terrible time...I am not sure what to say really..feel useless help for you, this is just my thoughts maybe he doesn't want to jump anymore? could he be used as DR, hack?

You have given him lots of physio and can they not deter what the actual prob is? saddle, muscle? anything? sounds very odd to me...and prob no help to you what so ever and feel for you both...sounds like a very honest horse too...

What ever it is I really hope you manage to figure it out...

hugs xx
 
OK, I'm not sure I took all that in right, so I apologize in advance for getting bits wrong. Lovely looking horse, by the way.
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After reading the first half, I was ready to say, well you've done all the investigations and turned up nothing, you know he's still not right so personally I'd retire or pts feeling like I'd tried hard enough.

But after reading the second half and seeing the pictures, it sounds like things did improve and were going OK between incidents. All the incidents in the second half could well be attributed to lack of shoes and studs.

If I were you, I'd put all the shoes back on, your safety is the most important thing, more important than the horse's feet and tbh, if he's going to fall and crash into jumps without the help of shoes, he'd probably opt for them as well! Then see if the miserable horse and issues come back. If he's happy to work, then great, if not I can't see what more you can do if you have been to horsepital, except maybe play about with heart bars, etc, if his feet are part of the problem.

If he has got something neurological going on, it might not be totally diagnosable, but if you can't safely use the horse after you've tried with shoes, I'd call it a day before you get hurt.
 
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A beautiful, beautiful horse with some serious issues by the sounds of it. I think you've been incredibly brave to continue riding him.

It will be interesting to hear what others say - but to my mind, this sounds like one to retire to the field, with a heart full of regret.

I'm assuming his feet (paticularly in front) were x-rayed, and his stifles?

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thanks
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Funnily enough thats the one area that hasn't been investigated (feet). Everyone has just assumed it is back/back end problem.
 
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Funnily enough thats the one area that hasn't been investigated (feet). Everyone has just assumed it is back/back end problem

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Ah - well, before making any final decisions I'd have to have the front feet x-rayed. Many incidents of forelimb lameness manifest themselves in the form of back pain. It would have been the first place my vets would have looked at. Basically from the bottom of the horse up - always.
 
We had a horse that would literally fall over when jumping, she had front foot probs and was trying to avoid landing on her front feet casuing her to 'knuckle' over and fall.
Very scary stuff.
 
I feel for you. He is quite obviously a talented chap and I can understand why you are reluctant to give up on him just yet.

From what you say he's had a fair amount of physio but have you had a chiro look at him? In my experience a chiro can often pin-point a cause rather than just "sticking on a plaster" by treating the symptoms.

I too would have all four feet x-rayed by a vet who works in conjunction with a farrier that is highly experienced in skeletal alignment issues and a good chiro, so that you have everyone pulling in the same direction. From the events you've being doing I would guess you are in Sussex / Hampshire? There are some excellent ones in the area. If his hind feet in particular are out of balance, it could be causing tension in his psoas major muscle which will contract the spine and bring the processes closer together (something the x-rays picked up).
 
Wow you two have been through the mill, he's stunning and I can see why you are 'stilltrying!' I have no useful input other than to say good luck whatever happens.
Kitty
 
To me it sounds like a confidence issue possibly as a result of pain association.

My horse used to be (well probably still is) clumsy behind and would sometimes slip over when jumping which knocked both mine and his confidence but wearing studs in his hinds really helps him (and me).

He also went through a faze where he just refused to jump though (v out of character as he'd never stopped before) and turned out he had injured his back. Afte physio sessions he was soon fine again although my confidence was a bit knocked and i expected him to refuse which of course he did!

I stopped competing for a while, stuck to hacking and just enjoying myself but we eventually got back on track and we have faith in each other again and enjoy XC/SJ/ODEs etc.

Yours is a big horse and, as the vets have ruled out physical and neurological problems it sounds like the slipping is down to clumsiness/lack of balance. I am not sure why you took his shoes off - did you try road studs and then changing to bigger studs for xc/sj? Many horses are reluctant to jump if they feel unsteady/unbalanced behind and are afraid of slipping, yours sounds to be a combination of this along with tension in his back as a result of the previous back soreness. The tension is going to exaggerrate this and cause more pain/discomfort.

I would maybe try another physio (maybe a different technique and different set of eyes/hands could be key). A friend of mine had probelms with her horse (quite severe - refusing jumps and bolting out hacking plus dramatic weight loss) and they found he had a multitude of back/neck and cranial issues which the physio worked on and the change was quite miraculous (I won't go into full details).

If he was mine I wouldn't be looking at giving up just yet given he's young and there's no diagnosed physical problem BUT maybe you need to work on exercises to build up the strength in his back - lungeing/flatwork etc as this seems to be where his problem lies. Then try just concentrating on dressage/flatwork/hacking maybe. After a few months if alls going well and you want to then try jumping again BUT start from scratch - back to basics and get yourself a good instructor to help you. It sounds like when he does jump he's rushing which is again likely to be related to the back issue and him thenlacking confidence. You need to try stop this rushing/panic jumping.

I don't want to pick at you or your riding (pics are never good to judge from and christ I probably look terrible!) but from the ones you've put up your stirrups look very long for XC and you don't look particularly balanced with him over the fence which won't help him either. The last pic does look a bit better.

That's all I can suggest really - starting from scratch and with a good instructor. If, at the end of the day jumping's not for him you may then decide enough's enough.
 
Thanks everyone - so far I've been swinging back and forth between everything you have suggested.

LadyT - I was going to go into detail about the shoes but would have made it EVEN longer! Basically he'd always had a tendency to pull his fronts(regardless of who was shoeing him), he is big moving behind and would just hook off the shoe, but never overreach. Overreach boots wouldn't work as they'd be off within hours. His fronts were getting weaker, and he has a v v slightly crooked leg and this hoof was looking more and more unbalancd. As we weren't doing much in the way of XC I thought I'd try him without the hinds and thats when he completely wrecked his fronts. When we were competing prior to that he did wear studs, including at the 'collapsing' incident.
 
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and he has a v v slightly crooked leg and this hoof was looking more and more unbalancd

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And still no one looked at his feet or forelimbs
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I would not be a happy bunny if on further investigations this is where the problems are found.

Let us know how you get on - it's a really interesting situation to read (although obviously not for you
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Ah ha! What you say about him constantly pulling off shoes would also point to a foot imbalance issue. He will keep pulling them off if he not breaking over quickly enough for his front feet to clear out of the way of the backs. I do think it's something you should investigate.
 
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and he has a v v slightly crooked leg and this hoof was looking more and more unbalancd

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And still no one looked at his feet or forelimbs
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I would not be a happy bunny if on further investigations this is where the problems are found.

Let us know how you get on - it's a really interesting situation to read (although obviously not for you
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As i was typing that I thought it might create some interest! Seriously no one has ever mentioned/looked at feet. Think I will have a little chat with vet about it.
 
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and he has a v v slightly crooked leg and this hoof was looking more and more unbalancd

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And still no one looked at his feet or forelimbs
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I would not be a happy bunny if on further investigations this is where the problems are found.


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Ditto. The horsepital have cocked up not investigating the front feet.
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My horse has had a sore back on and off since I bought him. Quite recently he had to have a full lameness work up done, where some significant problems were found with his front feet. These have now more or less been resolved - and his back pain has vanished!

Obviously we can't diagnose your horse for you, and certainly my horses never had these incidents of collapse as you have had - but so much of what you say seems to be screeming feet to me.
 
My boy has just had 5 months off with front feet problems. Before that, he would jump happily at low heights, but not so good as they got bigger. We worked and worked at it and were getting much better, then all of a sudden went backwards. This first started at an "indoor xc" event with very spooky fences so we put it down to him having a scare (although with hindsight he'd jumped plenty of similar ones XC) and carried on trying to build his confidence back. We didn't have much luck and 5 weeks later he was hopping lame.

It seems the problem had been there a while (original problem was confidence, but the more we jumped and built his confidence, the more damage was occuring to his feet, so started stopping again) and eventually came to the fore, although the vet says often it doesn't manifest itself as strongly as it eventually did in my boy. He too would charge at fences and then at the last second either stop or slow down loads and then cat leap the fence as if he was trying to take all the energy out of it to soften his landing.

He's just coming back to work but I have 99% decided not to jump him again (might do the odd long out and about, and maybe some low level indoor stuff as he was always a lot better indoors) as I don't think he enjoyed it much anyway and it will prolong what else he can do, fantastic hack, OK at dressage.

I'd get his feet checked, but regardless of there being a problem or not, I'd be inclined to stay on the floor from now on, if his dressage is going ok i'd just focus on that. For a horse who enjoyed it previously to react like that and to keep falling over, there has to be something physical going on.
 
Definitely agree with all those saying get his front feet checked out
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My ID x TB was bought to event, had slightly pelvic assymetry at vetting but nothing which the vet considered would affect his ability to event. After a year he started stopping... took him to the local equine college therapy centre, where he had intensive treatment focussing on his back end/back by a very well known local physio
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Got him home, he was still lame, went to Liphook for an MRI scan and he had navicular in both front feet, quite well advanced. All the back end problems were related to him trying to protect his front feet
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I do hope you manage to get to the bottom of this, you sound to have been having a very difficult time where he is clearly telling you something is very wrong
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but where you cant get to the bottom of it - a horrible situation to be in
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As others have said then def get his front feet looked at. He could have issues there or it could be something that would be helped by simple improved farriery.
 
I am going to be boringly practical here.
I think you have a few options here, but each raises questions:

1. Retire him - can you afford to keep him or would you PTS?

2. Put him on loan/sell him as a happy hack/dressage horse - but would he deteriorate, and/or possibly injure a future rider - how would you feel?

3. Continue veterinary investigations - how much are you willing to spend? Is he insured? What if they find nothing?

4. Carry on in eternal hope that it will spontaneously resolve.

I don't know which one of the four you should pick. Personally, I'd probably go for further investigations - but up to a limit. If nothing found, then I'd retire/PTS.
Good luck.
S
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Lovely horse. Has he had his feet X-rayed? I have a 20 year old TB and when he was 4/5 and I was less knowledgable about TBs, I made the mistake of over jumping him on hard ground (they were tiny, tiny jumps in the paddock at home but he has always had crap feet).

He got to the point where he would refuse to even walk over a pole. He was obviously telling me that jumping really hurt his feet.

They are much better 16 years on (NB shoes) but we only jump about once a year now!
 
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I am going to be boringly practical here.
I think you have a few options here, but each raises questions:

1. Retire him - can you afford to keep him or would you PTS?

2. Put him on loan/sell him as a happy hack/dressage horse - but would he deteriorate, and/or possibly injure a future rider - how would you feel?

3. Continue veterinary investigations - how much are you willing to spend? Is he insured? What if they find nothing?

4. Carry on in eternal hope that it will spontaneously resolve.

I don't know which one of the four you should pick. Personally, I'd probably go for further investigations - but up to a limit. If nothing found, then I'd retire/PTS.
Good luck.
S
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Practical is good!
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OK:
1. I can only afford 1 x horse. I am v soppy about this horse and couldn't bring myself to PTS unless he was suffering so not an option.
2. He isn't the easiest horse, i'd have to be honest about everything and if I were I really dont think anyone would want him!! By all accounts he didn't have the best start in life so selling him on with issues wouldnt just wouldnt sit right with me as I dont think it would end well for him.
3. Yes he is insured, but the claim that included the bonescan has lapsed and he is currently costing more to insure than both our cars!!! I will discuss the foot thing with the vet though as that is an area that hasn't been looked at. But unfortunately I do not have a bottomless pit of money. If they did find something footy though it would be a new claim so further investigations would be an option.
4. This is what I was hoping for!!
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I dont feel ready to retire him yet, he is doing some nice dressage etc and he is still young. I guess if the above are the only options I'd have to settle for keeping him as my happy hack and save my dreams of eventing for another day.
 
I would agree with everyone else get his feet checked! Then go from there... re his soreness you could try bowen therapy or equine touch ( v simular therapise) they treat the body as a whole, i personally think they are very good and have helped my horses!
Please keep us updated!
 
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I will discuss the foot thing with the vet though as that is an area that hasn't been looked at

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A lameness workup is going to cost you about £400. So not cheap, but taken as part of what he's cost you allready, allbeit through insurance, not a huge amount.
 
I'm with you for having physio (as this is what i study) but have you tried a chiro, osteo or any alternative methods for this problem. By what people on here have said i think it may also be worthwhile having his feet looked at. I hope that you can find a reason for his sudden collapses and strange behaviour. Keep us all posted
 
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