Which is more important?

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Patchworkpony

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In working cockers (assuming that it is one or the other - in other words a straight choice) which is more important, health testing or a low inbreeding coefficient? Here's the situation. I am finding it nearly impossible to track down a puppy who's parents have been health tested that doesn't seem to have an inbreeding coefficient of 16% or more. Given that 12.5% is equal to grandfather on granddaughter these high score appals me. I have seen what 'line-breeding' does to native ponies and I don't want a dog that is so highly bred. It would appear that these inbred dogs are the result of very fashionable field trial lines and the big breeders are some of the worst culprits. I may be able to get a pup in a month's time whose parents have not been health tested (farm bred) but will only have an inbreeding coefficient of 8.2%. Both parents are calm obedient working dogs.

I know that the experts will probably shoot me down and say health testing is vital but I don't want to bring up an over-hot, neurotic dog. I have a friend who has a local bred bitch (no health tests) that is really the sweetest, most intelligent and sensible little cocker you could wish for. She sent it to a posh stud where the dog she used had an inbreeding coefficient of 25%! The bitch she kept for herself is never still, difficult to train and has enormous separation issues - in fact a complete pain to live with, even though she gets plenty of exercise.

Any thoughts - especially from Alec Swan please.
 
I think temperament of parents is extremely important, although my bil's pup's mum was over shy, which worried me. The pup is an angel, tho, if somewhat submissive. I think he had the same great grandfather on both sides, no health tests.

Health tests are so important, but few working bred seem to have them. I'm not sure that line breeding using the same grandparent necessarily causes huge issues and temperament/upbringing can, IMO, be more important. I'm very interested to see what others think.
 
cinnamontoast said:
I think temperament of parents is extremely important, although my bil's pup's mum was over shy, which worried me. The pup is an angel, tho, if somewhat submissive. I think he had the same great grandfather on both sides, no health tests.

Health tests are so important, but few working bred seem to have them. I'm not sure that line breeding using the same grandparent necessarily causes huge issues and temperament/upbringing can, IMO, be more important. I'm very interested to see what others think.
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Thanks for that. It's certainly a minefield. In the old days there were no real health tests to speak of and people just got on with breeding. Here in Devon that is much the attitude with amateur breeders, who I must say tend to rear their pups inside in the kitchen with other dogs, cats, and kids so that when you get them they are half socialised already, as opposed to ones professionally bred in outside kennels.
 
Interesting question and something I have thought about myself.
I hope to breed a litter from my WCS later in the year assuming all health tests are clear and I can find a suitable stud.
I have already been keeping an eye out for a stud that may be suitable but I'm finding it extremely difficult to find the 'type' I want that is health tested and would provide a low enough inbreeding %.
I'm sure the right stud is out there but he's going to take a while to find!
 
3Beasties said:
Interesting question and something I have thought about myself.
I hope to breed a litter from my WCS later in the year assuming all health tests are clear and I can find a suitable stud.
I have already been keeping an eye out for a stud that may be suitable but I'm finding it extremely difficult to find the 'type' I want that is health tested and would provide a low enough inbreeding %.
I'm sure the right stud is out there but he's going to take a while to find!
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As you already know I LOVE your spaniel and I really hope you find a suitable mate for her. The inbreeding thing is a nightmare, especially if you are bothered about health tests as well - which frankly we all should be in the end.
 
Kennel Club Accredited Breeders must use, or are strongly recommended to use, the
following screening schemes and/or advice for sires and dams:
* BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme - including Gonioscopy
* DNA test prcd-PRA
* DNA test FN
* BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme

I'd want a clear eye score and low hip scores minimum.

3Beasties, a friend who is a gundog trainer, has a breeder she uses in Luton. I can get her to remind me of the KC name if that's any good to you.
 
It is tricky as I would not want a dog from a bitch that I did not like the temperament of, so I probably wouldn't worry about her breeding coefficient as much as her actual personality.
Having seen a friend lose a dog to hip displaysia I would never buy a pup that wasn't from tested parents. So I want a tested bitch who ticks all my boxes for calmness or drive or whatever, and I would trawl the internet to find out what the stud dog's offspring are like.
 
Health tests are not some mythical unobtainable achievement and cost less than the price of a puppy. Good temperament, working ability and good health should not be mutually exclusive.

I've seen dogs with literally no hips or elbows or both in my own breed, work really well in youth and to high level but by the time they're six or seven they're finished because the high impact stuff took it's toll on the joints. I want my canine companion to be fit and active and capable into old age.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Health tests are not some mythical unobtainable achievement and cost less than the price of a puppy. Good temperament, working ability and good health should not be mutually exclusive.

I've seen dogs with literally no hips or elbows or both in my own breed, work really well in youth and to high level but by the time they're six or seven they're finished because the high impact stuff took it's toll on the joints. I want my canine companion to be fit and active and capable into old age.
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This
 
My friend had to retire a very nice dog before he was four. Super temperament and competed at Nationals but he has one bad elbow. The landing from jumps was just getting heavier and heavier and he did the responsible thing.
 
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