Who struggles with watching racing due to fatalities?

There are far worse way's to die IMO, those horses in training are treated like gods at home, they live the life of luxury.
If they do happen to fatally fall they are despatched quickly, much better than being left neglected etc.
I love racing, yes its upsetting when they fall but unfortunately accidents happen.
 
As a genuine question, and not to wishing to start any sort of argument, a lot of people are saying these horses get the best possible care at home. What exactly do you mean by that? I'm not saying racing is worse than other industries, but friends I have who work in racing (in well known yards -I don't follow racing at all and yet am very familiar with their names, so they're not grotty back yard places ) haven't really given me that impression? Horses that are very unsound, given all sorts to stay in work (I am obviously aware that certain drugs are prohibited, so I appreciate there must be withdrawal period) , joints frequently medicated, diets that a horse is not really designed for, extreme soreness of muscles, no turn out, many with stable vices?
As I said, I don't actually have any problem with the racing as such, I totally agree the horses with their heads tied down by gadgets, hauled around by incompetent riders are having a miserable time.
But I'd really appreciate the view of people in the know? :)
 
Norfolk Pie said:
As a genuine question, and not to wishing to start any sort of argument, a lot of people are saying these horses get the best possible care at home. What exactly do you mean by that? I'm not saying racing is worse than other industries, but friends I have who work in racing (in well known yards -I don't follow racing at all and yet am very familiar with their names, so they're not grotty back yard places ) haven't really given me that impression? Horses that are very unsound, given all sorts to stay in work (I am obviously aware that certain drugs are prohibited, so I appreciate there must be withdrawal period) , joints frequently medicated, diets that a horse is not really designed for, extreme soreness of muscles, no turn out, many with stable vices?
As I said, I don't actually have any problem with the racing as such, I totally agree the horses with their heads tied down by gadgets, hauled around by incompetent riders are having a miserable time.
But I'd really appreciate the view of people in the know? :)
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Must say i'd be interested to hear people 'in the know''s thoughts on this, as any mainstream yard i've been to the horses only leave the stable to go up the gallops. However i've also worked on a hireling/livery/event yard that was the same - but i left due to how miserable and awful i felt it was for the horses, i am very aware it's not just teh racing industry, but i disagree they have a great life.

Most horses want to be in the field, eating grass, roaming and interacting with other horses, that's something generally racehorses don't do. But again, same can be said for many other disciplines - i'm not denying that.
 
Norfolk Pie said:
As a genuine question, and not to wishing to start any sort of argument, a lot of people are saying these horses get the best possible care at home. What exactly do you mean by that? I'm not saying racing is worse than other industries, but friends I have who work in racing (in well known yards -I don't follow racing at all and yet am very familiar with their names, so they're not grotty back yard places ) haven't really given me that impression?

Horses that are very unsound, given all sorts to stay in work (I am obviously aware that certain drugs are prohibited,

Yes, no denying it, some yards do do this. But many others stop all work and get the vets straight out to investigate.

so I appreciate there must be withdrawal period) , joints frequently medicated,

Again yes, but so are dressage horses, show jumpers and eventers. If it helps the horse be comfortable then why not? Many people get their happy hackers/retired horses medicated to keep them sound and pain free.

diets that a horse is not really designed for,

It's not so much the diet as the strict control of feed times that is. Each horse gets the correct quantity of feed and hay for the work it is doing and for it's build but with such strict timings it does indeed lead to ulcers and the likes.

extreme soreness of muscles,

The muscles work very hard, if a horse isn't coping, in most yards they will back off for a bit. Pretty much every single yard will have a physio or back person in to treat their horses.

no turn out,

Many National Hunt trainers are now seeing the benefit of regular turnout. And try to turn out at least 2-3 times a week weather permitting. Most horses get 6-8weeks turned out for their holidays to be horses. Flat yards don't often do turnout but they deal mostly in colts and it's not easy to turn out colts at all. There is method behind what appears to be madness.

many with stable vices?

Any horse can pick up stable vices. But I will agree that many do develop them from their environment.

As I said, I don't actually have any problem with the racing as such, I totally agree the horses with their heads tied down by gadgets, hauled around by incompetent riders are having a miserable time.
But I'd really appreciate the view of people in the know? :)
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Every yard is different and will have different ways of doing things. The one thing that I do feel sorry for the horses about is that they never always get the one to one attention they need. In smaller yards they do but go to a bigger yard and your working on a tight schedule with 4-6horses to do every day.

Racing isn't as bad as it seems. Yes there are things that can be improved upon from yard to yard and it's getting there. But how many normal horses in normal yards living normal lives get everything they could ever wish to have with no exspenses spared?
 
EKW said:
As for not seeing changes being made - there are plenty. New hurdles are being made to be more forgiving. Fences arent stuffed so much so they arent as solid and stiff when you hit them. The National fences are being made smaller - which in my opinion will be completely detremental to horses health, raise them back to 80's height and get them being respected. The ground is meticulously looked after. The horses are trained by professionals that have to pass exams before they are allowed to train a horse. All of the facilities are regularly inspected, new gallops surfaces being developed, new boots, new equipment - take the whip for example - it is now a lump of air cusioned foam - it can't do too much damage and is more made for noise. New drugs, new medical treatments - in fact pretty much everything that you use on a daily basis has been researched and developed for the racing industry long before it becomes available to the general public.

I see pictures of events where the take off and landing of big solid jumps is a horribly muddy, slippy patch. Anyone can run a horse round an xc course. Anyone can clamber over some show jumps. Anyone can strap their horses head in in various gadgets to get the look for dressage. Yet how many people actually have a real clue as to what they are doing.

It's not racehorses I pity it's the normal horses in the hands of the uneducated that I worry about.
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Well said EKW :)
 
Hedgewitch13 said:
Sadly, for the horses, it's all down to man's greed. Lets make as much money as possible from racing horses, regardless of those that die on the course or in training, it's all about profit. Sickening really... all for a bet and a prize pot. I hate humans sometimes.
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Exactly. People just make excuses to justify their selfishness and make themselves feel better. Love horses, hate racing (GN and related meet in particular).
 
You do realise that the only way to make money in racing is to own a very good horse or to be shrewd at betting.

Your average racehorse will cost 1.5-1.8k a month to train and for normal, bog standard races the winners prize is about 3k. Take out your jockeys fee, transport, trainers cut, lads exspenses et al and you'd be lucky to be left with enough to cover a months training fees. You need money that you are willing to lose to own a racehorse and know that it is for the pleasure of it.
 
Well come on, don't try and explain strict diets away. I've seen some of the worst programs in racing yards on this side of the pond. Says racing on the bag. I know a rather good trainer that had half feed and full feed. That's it. If they didn't eat, they didn't eat. Another person fed when he came in at 10 am and then started getting horses out.

When I left the States my boss had a big board. There were bins for oats, barley, molasses, a stabilised flax supplement, vits and mins, a jug of molasses, and a couple of other things. The board had the individual horses and individual buckets went with those. Allergies and dislikes were noted. For horses that didn't like to eat they also had a bucket of a food called respond that they could pick at all day. High fat content. Whatever wasn't eaten in the day was thrown away and replaced. At all times they had access to hay in a huge haynet. They also got 2 or 3 flakes of alfalfa when they came back in after training. They had stables bedded like no others. My boss used to say if you wouldn't sleep in it yourself don't ask a horse to. Something I do to this day.

As I've mentioned before we had very very few cribbers or any vices. There was no turnout at American tracks but they were out for 1 1/2 hours in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. Hand walking and grazing. All horses also got a stomach buffer daily. Feeds were 3 am, 11 am, 5 PM and 9 PM. A night watchman stayed from 8 PM til 4 am. So yeah the bar was pretty high over there.

Here I've had to gallop in bridles with no rubber on the reins, knots holding bridles together, black shavings stables, nasty pads, ect. I always brought my own saddle to gallop. Back home grooms had 4 horses each. They mucked and groomed those horses 3 times a day. They turned out horses incredibly. So yeah they were looked after better than most any horses I've ever seen. If tack was iffy it went in for repair. I was head rider and in charge of making sure everything was safe.

I've never galloped at Newmarket and The Curragh, but for trainers that win races so was a bit shocked at what passes for care. At homs there was never a day stables didn't get mucked because it was Sunday. And also since you don't get to be on a farm hidden away, people would always see who wasn't taking care of horses. I've often thought the Horse Racing body here should have unannounced visits for everyone to make sure minimum care standards were being met. Both from a welfare and safety issue.

Terri
 
And with regards to Rachel's post, this is a question I've often asked. What happens to horses that don't make it in other sports? Especially ones of very average or low talent that can't be ridden by just anyone? Ones that get screwed up for life by bad riding or people who think they can ride? We see it here all the time in the board. My horsie keeps bucking me off, won't lunge, scary on the ground, ect. Most of us say you need professional help. Person gets offended and then says I don't have the money. Love those posts.

I will say this for my life at the track. I've probably been on over 3000 individual horses. So for me it's always about me adapting to the individual horse. Most horses were so very easy to ride and deal with.

In America they now have a dedicated show series for TB's only. The prize money is incredible and by sponsors of the industry. Not just a walk trot canter class. A whole series. Even includes in hand classes for older and ones with past injuries. The rehab programs over there are many.

I stand by what I said before, the people are what get me most but that only happened when I moved over here. Mind you I was involved with other sides of the industry to.

Terri
 
I think all horses in every sport should get the life they deserve. I think it's funny how only racing is money based. Go spend the winter in Palm Beach. Bill Gates doesn't own racehorses but he owns American Show Hunters. You think racehorse people drug to keep horses going, you all live in a bubble.

And again, what happens to the ruined by "wannabes" in other sports? A life of pure love and devotion? I think not. And I already saw with my own eyes, and at pubs after hunting, how horses get treated. Of course not by everyone. I'm going home when my horse has flaps of skin hanging off. I'm not bearing him over a flooded ditch that even turned out in that field horses wouldn't dream of jumping out of to get to greener pastures.

Terri
 
Gosh Terri the hunting you have been doing and the hunting I have seen and done are two completely different things! I have never seen a horse flogged over a fence untill it's skin comes off over here????
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
I think all horses in every sport should get the life they deserve.
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Should? Yes, of course!

However, I was wondering whether the racing industry owes to the creatures that create so much money (if not wealth) more in the way of support, and the feasibility of providing support. Is it doing as much as it could? Should it be doing more?
 
justabob said:
Brilliant post fburton!
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Just that ;)

I once saw the GN when I was about a little girl back in the 70's. I found it so upsetting, seeing horses fall and try to get back up but fall again, that I have never, EVER watched it since, makes me feel sick to the core.

I will watch flat racing if I catch it on the telly, otherwise, it's not a 'sport' I particularly like; having ridden a few ex-racers (which can be very tricky to handle), they've had an intense life and are there to make money - I don't agree with that ethos, but understand there is a massive industry around it employing thousands of people.
 
I don't buy the argument that in other sports horses are not kept as well and that therefore racing deaths are acceptable, for two reasons:

1. Some horses are kept badly by people in all disciplines. I think that the proportion is probably similar in each discipline. Therefore, the racing deaths would be ADDITIONAL, not instead of.

2. I do not agree that the way in which the majority of racehorses are kept is keeping them "well". Limited or non-existant turnout, inappropriate diets for their digestive system, limited or non-existant socialisation with other horses, raced so hard that they look utterly shattered on finishing (and sometimes need the precaution of oxygen) etc. I have taken on a number of ex-racers and most of them came to me slightly "spacey" - switched off, institutionalised - and took several months to develop their true characters as horses instead of racing machines.
 
cptrayes said:
I don't buy the argument that in other sports horses are not kept as well and that therefore racing deaths are acceptable, for two reasons:

1. Some horses are kept badly by people in all disciplines. I think that the proportion is probably similar in each discipline. Therefore, the racing deaths would be ADDITIONAL, not instead of.

2. I do not agree that the way in which the majority of racehorses are kept is keeping them "well". Limited or non-existant turnout, inappropriate diets for their digestive system, limited or non-existant socialisation with other horses, raced so hard that they look utterly shattered on finishing (and sometimes need the precaution of oxygen) etc. I have taken on a number of ex-racers and most of them came to me slightly "spacey" - switched off, institutionalised - and took several months to develop their true characters as horses instead of racing machines.
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Totally agree.

I worked with pointers for 7 years. Two horses I knew well went on to run in the National, neither recovered from the experience, one destroyed weeks later, one a hack, and have not watched racing since I left. I know some people enjoy the sense of risk, but it is no fun when the horses you look after fall or injure themselves, and it happens an awful lot. I have seen a lot of Pointers racing when not fit enough too. (not our's) Recipe for disaster.

When I look back I wonder why I did the job so long.
 
The difference between pointing and national hunt racing is that pointing is 95% amature riders and trainers who get a tb and fancy 'having a go'. That is why there are so many more injuries pointing. Anyone can go pointing. Your average Farmer Joe could pull his donkey out of the field, tack it up and race it. I hate pointing. Yes there are people that have been doing it for years that know what they are doing but it's like your normal rider, as said earlier in this thread going to do a BE 100 or Novice 'because they can' they are the ones that do the most damage through not having a full understanding of fitness levels required for both horse and rider.
 
EKW said:
The difference between pointing and national hunt racing is that pointing is 95% amature riders and trainers who get a tb and fancy 'having a go'. That is why there are so many more injuries pointing. Anyone can go pointing. Your average Farmer Joe could pull his donkey out of the field, tack it up and race it. I hate pointing. Yes there are people that have been doing it for years that know what they are doing but it's like your normal rider, as said earlier in this thread going to do a BE 100 or Novice 'because they can' they are the ones that do the most damage through not having a full understanding of fitness levels required for both horse and rider.
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Can any breed do pointing? Not that I want to do it of course, but if I wanted to enter Ned, could I?
 
Nah said:
Can any breed do pointing? Not that I want to do it of course, but if I wanted to enter Ned, could I?
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No, they have to be Wetherby's registered except for the Members Race.

I think to register they have to be TB or TBx but I'm not certain about that.
 
cptrayes said:
No, they have to be Wetherby's registered except for the Members Race.

I think to register they have to be TB or TBx but I'm not certain about that.
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Ah okies, thanks ^^
I wonder why more breeds don't race. Ned has managed to keep up with the ex racer at the yard in a flat out gallop, but the ISH kicked everyone's a$$ and left us in the dust. I think if he was allowed to race he would do well!
 
Its not the racing I struggle with, the horses are bred for a job, kept in peak fitness and luxury to do their job. Its the ones who don't make it that I feel sorry for, the ones who end up in the meat chain.

There are risks doing everything, even happy hackers get killed.
 
cptrayes said:
I don't buy the argument that in other sports horses are not kept as well and that therefore racing deaths are acceptable, for two reasons:

1. Some horses are kept badly by people in all disciplines. I think that the proportion is probably similar in each discipline. Therefore, the racing deaths would be ADDITIONAL, not instead of.

2. I do not agree that the way in which the majority of racehorses are kept is keeping them "well". Limited or non-existant turnout, inappropriate diets for their digestive system, limited or non-existant socialisation with other horses, raced so hard that they look utterly shattered on finishing (and sometimes need the precaution of oxygen) etc. I have taken on a number of ex-racers and most of them came to me slightly "spacey" - switched off, institutionalised - and took several months to develop their true characters as horses instead of racing machines.
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When you write a post like that I wonder why some folk seem to love having a go at you in other threads! I agree with every word.
 
There are some strange things written on here about racing some by people that I wonder if they've ever actually seen a race ! Cheltenham this year has been amazing, there has been a lot of changes to the course and far fewer fallers than there ever used to be. Comments about how the horses are kept just seem ill considered to me, the horses have to be at their very best to perform well, they look amazing and most of them will be racing for seasons to come.
 
bonny said:
There are some strange things written on here about racing some by people that I wonder if they've ever actually seen a race ! Cheltenham this year has been amazing, there has been a lot of changes to the course and far fewer fallers than there ever used to be. Comments about how the horses are kept just seem ill considered to me, the horses have to be at their very best to perform well, they look amazing and most of them will be racing for seasons to come.
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Out off interest, what are the statistics of horses leaving racing each year? I wonder how many retire sound, how many through injury, and how many destroyed? Also, I'd really appreciate an idea of what rehab programme a horse would follow, and where you would expect it to be in the process, say, 3 years down the line? (obviously assuming it copes physically and mentally, & has someone decent doing its rehab :))
Thank you :)
 
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