Who struggles with watching racing due to fatalities?

Norfolk Pie said:
Out off interest, what are the statistics of horses leaving racing each year? I wonder how many retire sound, how many through injury, and how many destroyed? Also, I'd really appreciate an idea of what rehab programme a horse would follow, and where you would expect it to be in the process, say, 3 years down the line? (obviously assuming it copes physically and mentally, & has someone decent doing its rehab :))
Thank you :)
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I've no idea, I don't even know if anyone has done the statistics.....
Your second question again there is no one answer, I would say alot of horses don't need a rehab programme as such although that's true for NH more than flat racers. 3 years down the line most of them would just be a horse assuming the've been out doing other things.
 
EKW said:
The difference between pointing and national hunt racing is that pointing is 95% amature riders and trainers who get a tb and fancy 'having a go'. That is why there are so many more injuries pointing. Anyone can go pointing. Your average Farmer Joe could pull his donkey out of the field, tack it up and race it. I hate pointing. Yes there are people that have been doing it for years that know what they are doing but it's like your normal rider, as said earlier in this thread going to do a BE 100 or Novice 'because they can' they are the ones that do the most damage through not having a full understanding of fitness levels required for both horse and rider.
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EKW ....alot of that is simply not true and as you are in a yard that has alot of pointers you know better
 
bonny said:
I've no idea, I don't even know if anyone has done the statistics.....
Your second question again there is no one answer, I would say alot of horses don't need a rehab programme as such although that's true for NH more than flat racers.
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Really? But surely the the way they use themselves when racing is so totally different in terms of muscle? I had assumed that anything coming out of racing in to one of the official rehab yards would start off with a good physio / biomechanics type ground work before anything was expected of them with a rider? I've seen plenty be brought by people who dont have much idea, who've just worked on "retraining" them, but it's been pretty limited success because the horse can't do it? Perhaps I've just seen unfortunate ones - I've sent them away with the suggestion of taking it right back to the beginning
 
Not sure I understand what you are saying.....what do you mean when you say the horses can't do it ? Do what ?
 
I love/hate it. It's a dangerous sport, some even go as far to call it a blood sport. But isn't that what makes the Grand National so popular, as it is such a big risk?

Google racehorse deathwatch. It's almost at a 1000 in exactly 8 years which, as it doesn't touch on those in training or retired, is startling. But, those horses are bred to run and enjoy what they do. They are exceptionally well looked after and I know if I was a racehorse I would rather die jumping my heart out doing what my instinct is telling me to do instead of ending my days suffering in a muddy field as my owner couldn't afford a vets fee, just the 400 he paid for me.
 
bonny said:
Not sure I understand what you are saying.....what do you mean when you say the horses can't do it ? Do what ?
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Sorry -as in cant physically do what they're asking - eg keep sufficient balance to canter a corner without dropping to trot / falling in / getting strong and buzzy, or unable to keep a slower rhythm to a small fence -because they can't stay up through their backs, so they end up inverted and rushing in order to just drag themselves over it? this isn't any criticism of the way racehorses go! I'm talking simply about them going from their first career, into a 20 x 40 school with a differently balanced rider on? I'd always assumed that the ones that were being done "right" would have loads of ground work done first? The ones I've seen, I normally suggest aren't ready to have a rider (ie they're not capable of walking in a productive manner, so I just suggest they go right back to scratch) but perhaps Ives just seen ones that haven't had a very good time?
 
Norfolk Pie said:
Out off interest, what are the statistics of horses leaving racing each year?
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They are published on an official website, I forget which sorry.

They are presented as a pie chart which a statistician would throw a fit at - it has been made "3-D" and the death section is put to the back where visually it is very small as a proportion of the total surface area of the pie chart. The figures are there, but the presentation of the chart is a deliberate attempt to mislead at the first glance.

I simply cannot make the numbers quoted as retired for breeding stack up. Either the studs are knee deep in mares, or mares are being thrown out of studs or put down in huge numbers to make room for the new ones. I've challenged this a couple of times on this forum and no-one has ever answered me. I suspect that the number of horses reported as being retired to breed is a total fudge.
 
bonny said:
the horses have to be at their very best to perform well, they look amazing and most of them will be racing for seasons to come.
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I don't think this is true. They have to be at a muscular physical peak but mentally they can be a total wreck, skeletally they can be borderline, and bad feet is so completely normal that everyone assumes that they are "typical" thoroughbred feet, genetically inherited.

A shiny coat and rippling muscles does not make a happy horse.

Yes, most of them will be racing next season, but around 1 in 50, assuming the average NH horse races 5 times a season, will die on the racecourse in the course of one season*. More will die at home after injuries sustained while racing. These figures are enormously higher than for any other horse discipline.




*official racing statistics, deaths average out at 1 in 250 runners. Always presented as "runners" not horses, you'll note. Possibly because the figure sounds so much more acceptable than 1 in 50.
 
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cptrayes said:
I don't think this is true. They have to be at a physical peak but mentally they can be a total wreck. A shiny coat and rippling muscles does not make a happy horse.

Yes, most of them will be racing next season, but around 1 in 50, assuming the average NH horse races 5 times a season, will die on the racecourse in the course of a season. More will die at home after injuries sustained while racing. These figures are enormously higher than for any other horse discipline.
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I can only speak about NH racing as I know very little about the flat but there is no way a horse who is a mental wreck will be racing well or continue if they can't be sorted.
 
bonny said:
I can only speak about NH racing as I know very little about the flat but there is no way a horse who is a mental wreck will be racing well or continue if they can't be sorted.
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I don't agree with you. Being mentally out of sorts could, depending on how it affects the horse, make it run more aggressively and faster. Many racehorses weave, boxwalk, head-nod and crib. None of those things prevent them from running fast but all of them indicate a potential mental problem.

This is the problem that I see with racing yards. That most of them would not even define a yard with 30 boxes with 30 horses with anti-weave bars nodding their heads up and down as having any problems at all. I've seen this several times on the TV in racing yards. Personally, I'd be ashamed to have a horse in my yard stand in its box making compulsive repetitive head movements; stereotypical behaviour like a pacing tiger in too small a cage in a bad zoo.
 
So we stop breeding tbs for racing ,show jumping. Hey lets stop breeding horses full stop as that way we no longer have to watch them race do dressage show jump and just go out for a gentle hack or just be a field companion, just incase they are injured have colic, kissing spine you name somebody is against it, even better lets stop breeding children as they may hurt themselves sneezing. Grow up these things happen to the best looked after racehorse to the best loved hack, an very old saying, Where there is live stock there is also dead stock. When you have owned horses as long as some of us that is the truest saying there is.
 
This is the problem that I see with racing yards. That most of them would not even define a yard with 30 boxes with 30 horses with anti-weave bars nodding their heads up and down as having any problems at all. I've seen this several times on the TV in racing yards. Personally, I'd be ashamed to have a horse in my yard stand in its box making compulsive repetitive head movements; stereotypical behaviour like a pacing tiger in too small a cage in a bad zoo.[/QUOTE]

Maybe as you have seen this behaviour on the TV, the horses are on high alert and more excited by the camera crew and change in their routine....
 
Maybe as you have seen this behaviour on the TV, the horses are on high alert and more excited by the camera crew and change in their routine....
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If that makes you feel better, you go on believing that. But I have retrained quite a few and as I have already said above, the majority were institutionalised automatons compared to non racing retrains that I have done. I do not believe it was the cameras, otherwise why are entire yards fitted with anti-weave bars?
 
Echo Bravo said:
So we stop breeding tbs for racing ,show jumping. Hey lets stop breeding horses full stop as that way we no longer have to watch them race do dressage show jump and just go out for a gentle hack or just be a field companion, just incase they are injured have colic, kissing spine you name somebody is against it, even better lets stop breeding children as they may hurt themselves sneezing.
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Nothing quite adds to a discussion better than a great bit of overreaction, does it :D ?

these things happen to the best looked after racehorse to the best loved hack,
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You miss the point. It happens much, much, much more often, proportionately, to a National Hunt horse during or shortly after a race. At some point that increased risk is unacceptable. 100% death is clearly not acceptable, I hope you would agree. The figure in one season is about 2% on the racecourse and more back at home. You find that acceptable. I find that disturbing.
 
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I don't know a great deal about racing (horses that is, bikes I know more about) but has anyone looked into whether these obsessive/compulsive behaviours are common in jockeys/trainers as well? I only ask because I understand they are fairly common in very competitive bike racers and I wonder whether racing causes these behaviours or whether it is just that you need this type of personality to be a successful racer, be it human or equine?
 
cptrayes said:
If that makes you feel better, you go on believing that. But I have retrained quite a few and as I have already said above, the majority were institutionalised automatons compared to non racing retrains that I have done. I do not believe it was the cameras, otherwise why are entire yards fitted with anti-weave bars?
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It doesn't make me feel better... It is first hand experience, but if it makes you feel better about yourself and your horsemanship that the majority of racehorses are "institutionalised automatons" ...... Then fine.
 
jockmaster said:
It doesn't make me feel better... It is first hand experience, but if it makes you feel better about yourself and your horsemanship that the majority of racehorses are "institutionalised automatons" ...... Then fine.
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I don't consider it any reflection on me or my horsemanship. It's not exactly hard to turn a horse out in the morning and let it roll in the mud :p
 
cptrayes, no I wasn't over reacting, just stating a fact, if people don't like horses getting injured or anything else happening to them either stop breeding them or stop watching racing eventing dressage etc. Mine are happy hacks but they can get injured either in the stable/field or out hacking, just the same as on a race course, if you really do hate the racing scene, why do you just stop watching it and stop putting your holy than thou sermons on here.:):):)
 
bonny said:
Cpt....just out of interest did you watch Cheltenham this week ?
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No. I am completely uninterested in watching racing on the TV. I have been to National Hunt races, but since the day he experienced green screens, my other half, who is not horse orientated at all, refuses to have anything to do with it, cannot even bring himself to talk about it and thinks it should be banned.


Out of interest, why would you think that I would watch it?
 
cptrayes said:
I don't consider it any reflection on me or my horsemanship. It's not exactly hard to turn a horse out in the morning and let it roll in the mud :p
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So is that your retraining regime... That maybe why ROR aren't bashing your door down... :-)

Can I ask (not in an antagonist way) but a genuine question, what would be your answer if you could wave a magic wand?
 
cptrayes said:
No. I am completely uninterested in watching racing on the TV. I have been to National Hunt races, but since the day he experienced green screens, my other half, who is not horse orientated at all, refuses to have anything to do with it, cannot even bring himself to talk about it and thinks it should be banned.


Out of interest, why would you think that I would watch it?
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If you are completely uninterested and presumably have no real experience then why do you deep posting as if you have ?
 
Can I point out to all of you who appear to be wading in to have an argument with me, that the title of this thread is

Who struggles with watching racing due to fatalities?

What did you expect when you opened it and read it?
 
bonny said:
If you are completely uninterested and presumably have no real experience then why do you deep posting as if you have ?
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I take it then that you have either starved and beaten children yourself, or that you have no feeling one way or the other whether it is right or wrong to do so?
 
cptrayes said:
Can I point out to all of you who appear to be wading in to have an argument with me, that the title of this thread is

Who struggles with watching racing due to fatalities?

What did you expect when you opened it and read it?
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all you had to say in that case is that you don't watch it due to the fatalalities
 
cptrayes said:
Can I point out to all of you who appear to be wading in to have an argument with me, that the title of this thread is

Who struggles with watching racing due to fatalities?

What did you expect when you opened it and read it?
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I'm not wading in for an argument, I am just interested in what you want? Racing obviously sits badly with you and you must have thought of a compromise, its just a discussion.
 
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