Who struggles with watching racing due to fatalities?

[Echo Bravo]

But according to you, you don't watch racing so why are commenting on it, I think being on here must be the 2nd pleasure in your life, I'm not too sure what your first maybe.

 

[cptrayes]

So is that your retraining regime... That maybe why ROR aren't bashing your door down...

Yeah, lovely non antagonistic "joke" JM. I have no need of ROR I buy direct from the auctions when I want an ex racer.

Can I ask (not in an antagonist way) but a genuine question, what would be your answer if you could wave a magic wand?

The question is extremely complex due to the economic impact which racing has in the English and Irish economies.

If I had a magic wand, of course, it would be simple, I would wave it so that no horse died jump racing or was put down due to injury caused during a race.

I think at some point in the future, probably quite far future, jump racing will be banned and so will racing two year olds. I don't feel strongly enough to campaign for that, but I won't be sorry to see it happen if I am still alive.

 

[cptrayes]

But according to you, you don't watch racing so why are commenting on it, I think being on here must be the 2nd pleasure in your life, I'm not too sure what your first maybe.

What a very strange point of view!

I dont watch children being beaten; oil being produced in smaller and smaller quantities; money we don't have being printed; civil war in Syria or any one of a million other things.

Does that mean you don't think I should comment on any of them?

Horses are my first, of course.

 

[cptrayes]

all you had to say in that case is that you don't watch it due to the fatalalities

Can you explain why you think that I should limit myself to saying only what you think that I should?

 

[bonny]

What a very strange point of view!

I dont watch children being beaten; oil being produced in smaller and smaller quantities; money we don't have being printed; civil war in Syria or any one of a million other things.

Does that mean you don't think I should comment on any of them?

Horses are my first, of course.

you can of course comment on whatever you like but I think a few of us are puzzled why with no first hand experience you keep posting as if you have .......

 

[Dobiegirl]

I love NH racing, have sat and watched every race at Cheltenham, to me its a great pleasure. The only downside is the occasional fatality but Im enough of a realist to know accidents happen all the time with horses.

 

[cptrayes]

I'm not wading in for an argument, I am just interested in what you want? Racing obviously sits badly with you and you must have thought of a compromise, its just a discussion.

I want racing people to be honest and not to try to pretend to themselves and to the rest of us that NH does not kill far more horses than any other horse sport.

I'd like to see the Grand National field reduced in number.

I'd like to see a return to "proper" steeplechasers and a halt to the breeding of finer and finer boned NH horses who do not seem to have the durability of the old fashioned types, from what racing people have said on other threads.

For the moment, that's pretty much all that can be done, I think.

 

[bonny]

I'm exactly the same Dobiegirl, this week has been amazing.....there is nothing to compare with top NH racing and long may it continue.

 

[Leaf]

Well my "joke" obviously didn't cross over into text well, I am not mocking you for caring, if everyone felt the same the world would be be a very unregulated place...

I think your wish is the same wish that every person stood on every racetrack/livingroom/street in the country wants.

I think what upsets people is when you say that all racehorses have mental health issues etc and that the racing industry don't care. You're right some don't but most do.

 

[cptrayes]

you can of course comment on whatever you like but I think a few of us are puzzled why with no first hand experience you keep posting as if you have .......

and I am puzzled why you think it is impossible to comment on something without having first hand experience - do you have first hand experience of everything you comment on?

and how, having read what I have posted about seeing the green screens and of retraining failed racers, you can possibly think I have no experience on which to comment

 

[cptrayes]

I think what upsets people is when you say that all racehorses have mental health issues etc and that the racing industry don't care. .

I didn't

 

[bonny]

and I am puzzled why you think it is impossible to comment on something without having first hand experience - do you have first hand experience of everything you comment on?

and how, having read what I have posted about seeing the green screens and of retraining failed racers, you can possibly think I have no experience on which to comment

on the whole yes I only comment on things that I know about and I don't think having seen a green screen makes you any kind of expert......I don't like dressage for example but I wouldn't start telling people who do what I think is wrong with it .....

 

[cptrayes]

on the whole yes I only comment on things that I know about and I don't think having seen a green screen makes you any kind of expert......I don't like dressage for example but I wouldn't start telling people who do what I think is wrong with it .....

from another thread

Using that logic we might as well stop talking about anything else....terrible what happened in America today but it's not relevant. Awful things are happening all over the world, doesn't stop us caring about other seemingly trivial things.

 

[bonny]

from another thread

not getting your argument at all....that was taken from a thread about Kauto Star, I commented on that thread because I am a racing fan and I've been involved in racing for many years

 

[Leaf]

I want racing people to be honest and not to try to pretend to themselves and to the rest of us that NH does not kill far more horses than any other horse sport.

I'd like to see the Grand National field reduced in number.

I'd like to see a return to "proper" steeplechasers and a halt to the breeding of finer and finer boned NH horses who do not seem to have the durability of the old fashioned types, from what racing people have said on other threads.

For the moment, that's pretty much all that can be done, I think.

Sorry cross posted!

To your first point, I do not think that the BHA hide the deaths in NH the figures are out there but like any business they do not advertise these numbers.

Why? it is a very wide track easily able to accommodate the large field, I suggest educating the jockeys that seem to lose their heads and just hoon around the first circuit.

As for the breeding well denman was an old fashioned chaser as was master minded and sprinter sacre is 17.2h and well boned...

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry cross posted!

To your first point, I do not think that the BHA hide the deaths in NH the figures are out there but like any business they do not advertise these numbers.

That's not the point JM. The point is that every time we have a thread like this several people will come on and say "but horses break a leg turned out in the field", and avoid facing up to the much, much higher proportion of NH horses that die doing their job than any other horse sport. I avoided joining this thread until that sort of comment had been made, when I felt it required comment.

Why? it is a very wide track easily able to accommodate the large field, I suggest educating the jockeys that seem to lose their heads and just hoon around the first circuit.

Because I have seen a number of posts on this site from people very much into racing who say that they think that there will be fewer fatalities if the number is reduced. I have listened to them.

As for the breeding well denman was an old fashioned chaser as was master minded and sprinter sacre is 17.2h and well boned...

The general trend, again I am told by racing people on this forum, is for lighter and lighter chasers, following the French model. Given that few jumpers end their career as entires, it seems obvious that this will be the case if breeding for speed from proven racehorses, and I have been told that this is so.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Well looking at the sell out crowds at Cheltenham and the majority of them will be die hard racing fans there is an awful lot of people who disagree with you. No one in their right mind is happy with any fatality on the racecourse but improvements have been made and continue to be made to make them safer. I fail to see what you hope to accomplish with your post, you seem to take every opportunity to have a pop at racing. If you dont like it dont watch it.

 

[Leaf]

That's not the point JM. The point is that every time we have a thread like this several people will come on and say "but horses break a leg turned out in the field", and avoid facing up to the much, much higher proportion of NH horses that die doing their job than any other horse sport. I avoided joining this thread until that sort of comment had been made, when I felt motivated to join in.

Ok but that's not my view..

Because I have seen a number of posts on this site from people very much into racing who say that they think that there will be fewer fatalities if the number is reduced. I have listened to them.

My OH has ridden in the GN/topham more than once and he has said for a few years now that a few jockeys are just hooning, hunt round the first circuit, become a jockey for the second, the track is wide enough and relevant changes made.


The general trend, again I am told by racing people on this forum, is for lighter and lighter chasers, following the French model. Given that few jumpers end their career as entires, it seems obvious that this will be the case if breeding for speed from proven racehorses, and I have been told that this is so.

Well kauto star is a French horse he survived a long career and sprinter sacre is also French bred..

 

[Leaf]

Oops some of my replies got mixed in the quote...!

 

[cptrayes]

Well kauto star is a French horse he survived a long career and sprinter sacre is also French bred..

JM I couldn't give a stuff about individual jumper breeding and you can pull up all the exceptions you like.

It is the opinion of some racing people on this forum that the trend is to lighter horses and that it is responsible for less robust horses. If you are saying that is incorrect, just say so, stop popping out names!

It does, however, seem crazy to me to breed chasers from horses with no proven ability to jump at all, never mind at speed, and I do wonder if NH racing couldn't do with out-crossing to some strong eventing sires?

 

[cptrayes]

Well looking at the sell out crowds at Cheltenham and the majority of them will be die hard racing fans there is an awful lot of people who disagree with you. No one in their right mind is happy with any fatality on the racecourse but improvements have been made and continue to be made to make them safer. I fail to see what you hope to accomplish with your post, you seem to take every opportunity to have a pop at racing. If you dont like it dont watch it.

Lots of people disagree with me Dobiegirl, I have no problem with it.

Can I ask what the point of your post was, since it does not seem to contribute one iota to the discussion going on on this thread?

 

[firm]

Cptrayes - out of interest do you know the stats for horses fatally injured in the field?

 

[cptrayes]

Oops some of my replies got mixed in the quote...!

OK, I went back and deciphered it

 

[cptrayes]

Cptrayes - out of interest do you know the stats for horses fatally injured in the field?

Does anyone?

What I do know is that if every 5th time I went out in the season a horse was killed with a broken leg or broken neck or broken back, and another was shot when it got home becuase of injury caused during hunting, then I would stop hunting and so would most of the people hunting with me. As it is, there have been two deaths in four seasons and both were heart attacks, one of an aged horse.


Lets take the same extrapolation for BE. If deaths at a BE event were proportionate to NH deaths, there would be one horse death on nearly every day of eventing. If that happened, BE would stop.

 

[dressedkez]

Well looking at the sell out crowds at Cheltenham and the majority of them will be die hard racing fans there is an awful lot of people who disagree with you. No one in their right mind is happy with any fatality on the racecourse but improvements have been made and continue to be made to make them safer. I fail to see what you hope to accomplish with your post, you seem to take every opportunity to have a pop at racing. If you dont like it dont watch it.

The voice of reason - good point well made.
Lets all think about JT Macnamara - father of three, struggling for his life. The wastage of horses / ponies in any sport all be it so called happy hacking to high class racing and all the in-betweens is tough, but the human factor of these brave men and women who do it for a living is tougher. And please don't wade in with comments about if horse racing did not exist, then they would not be at risk.....I seem to recall a young show jumper was tragically killed the other day.

 

[dancingkris]

To Cptrayes - its obvious you have a major gripe with the racing industry given your posts on here and the thread re racing two year olds and you say that you hope in your lifetime jump racing will be banned. So let's imagine the situation then - die hard jump racing owners (who let's face it have horses for the love of the sport not to get rich!) decide to have horses in the nearest sport - say eventing for example. So that becomes an industry like racing, more horses, more events, more injuries, more fatalities. I imagine than you'd be up in arms about that industry and how terrible it all is and calling for a ban?? Or maybe not given that its 'your' sport?? There are wrongs and rights in all equestrian sports - yes its sad that there are more horses killed in NH than eventing, show jumping or dressage but that's like saying that rugby is comparable to football - its played by humans who get injured to different degrees due to the differences of the game but the two sports are as far removed from each other as any of the equestrian disciplines.

 

[firm]

Can you explain that analogy a bit for me? Are you comparing one hunt with all NH racing? Number of horses etc.

I only asked the question re field accidents because I am begining to think quite a few do - just reading in here and my own experience.

 

[Leaf]

It is not as simple as me not agreeing with other posters on breeding, or popping out names. this discussion proves that we both love the equine world but in different ways, and people's views on breeding differ that is why we have such a rich and beautiful variation of horses and ponies in the world.

we all manipulate the breeds in the endevor to make the prettiest/fastest/enduring etc racing isn't the only sport guilty of this. You yourself suggested introducing eventing sires which in turn have been bred to hopefully guarantee a traits in its prodigy in a certain field.... What's the difference?

Also at least racing prohibits embryo transfer and AI, so any changes to the breed are generational, but that is a whole different discussion

 

[Dobiegirl]

Lots of people disagree with me Dobiegirl, I have no problem with it.

Can I ask what the point of your post was, since it does not seem to contribute one iota to the discussion going on on this thread?

I asked first what the point of your post was other than to have a pop at racing. I did answer the question your post asked you must have missed it. As for my contribution to the discussion I added that the BHA are working to make racing safer which can only be a good thing. You just want a total ban which is never going to happen, as I have said in other threads some major owners have funded research into grass sickness and laminitis which even you must agree is a good thing.. If these owners were not involved with racing I sure they wouldnt have funded this.

 

[langtonhighway]

CPTrayes.

your posts are ace! thoughtful, obviously researched and considered, and totally reasonable and polite.

I agree with much of what you write