Who went to Hartpury?

A very good sensible and realistic post Cherrygarden IMHO.
Temperament and conformation are first for me every time but then I am not aiming at the professional rider unlike some breeders. I'm not saying that's wrong, of course not, in Eothian's words, 'we should all reach for the stars' in our own fields but the trouble usually starts if the 'professional' horse does not live up to expectations and is put on general sale for an in the main, inexperienced public.
 
A stallion is a competition horse PLUS but as the plus is so subjective perhaps it is best left out. I wonder how femininity and masculinity are defined amongst horses, seems to me an unnecessary human element added on a day when those making the rules had little else to do because if I am honest that PLUS factor is evident in some of the ***** ponies that run the marshes. When you take them apart they are horrid but when they are out, being wild on a sunny day with a band of clumpy mares they are ***** stallions PLUS which is of no breeding value to anyone except the knacker man. I do know what you are saying and Lesleypg too, there are some stallions that just don't have the stallion spark but to make a comment like that about a graded stallion who has supposedly pleased the Grading judges just shows how subjective, personal and intangible the PLUS factor is and how little use it is in determining the usefulness of the stallion in question. I also think that it is something that possibly just doesn't really work over here. British stallions have to be family horses who can live at home, be managed by non professional owners, be turned out, ridden at all sorts of venues plus perform at competitions and occasionally now stallion shows. We don't yet have the money or set up country wide for most of them to be career stallions who live in gilded cages and can be that all man horse type that is so carefully sculpted and crafted on the continent. The type of stallions that work well over here are perhaps the ones you find in training yards abroad that will live and work around all sorts happily not the type that must live in Stallion barns and come out sparkly for special occasions. I also think the masculine type is being somewhat diluted across all performance studbooks by the rise of the modern, lighter sports horse type. Look at Woodlander Wavavoom(sp sorry) and Farouche just in pictures.If you didn't know, which one was the stallion or which one had more PLUS? Farouche I have seen in the flesh and Wavavoom only in pictures and videos but it is a hard call and no negative reflection on either horse which ever way you choose(please note I picked them as they are both orange with long legs, fab breeding and both although very young, somewhat proven as breeding horses as well as performance).
 
Well said Harriephebs....I made some selections, spent quite a bit of money on semen and was hugely disappointed by some of the 'much hyped' horses who I saw for the first time.....that said I think I will keep my council on my choices and spare the feelings/increase the arrogance of some stallion owners and semen agents. A real good event though, well run and publicised with excellent commentary and some very insightful information from Lyn Crowden
 
one thing i would be worried about re comments on franklyn sugar is if Lesleypg is an evaluater with the futurity she would hold it against a foal being by fs??
 
I cannot see how this could be viewed as slander; this stallion, and others, have been criticised on something impossible to pin down or adequately define; this may down to personal preference which is fair enough; but if the person holding this possibly baseless preference, this bias, is going to judge the offspring of these horses in a professional capacity, to ask whether this bias may carry over is a fair question, I think.

I found Ciss's post informed and interesting, but it leaves a question for me; if this masculinity, this stallion quality is not judged at the Futurity because the Futurity is concerned only with sporting potential, why is it necessary at all? How does it translate? Are the offspring of a "masculine" stallion better than those of a quieter lad? If so, how are they better? Or does it make no difference? Because here we have a nebulous quality which we cannot evaluate or measure with any degree of reliability. And we have (I think?) an evaluator "writing off" as stallion prospects - and therefore (as I think she felt Franklyn Sugar would be a good dressage horse in himself?) as breeding prospects, horses whom she feels do not display it. But if a horse without it would still be a good dressage horse - just not a stallion - and the aim of breeding is to have good dressage/competition horses, not stallions per se, then how does it matter at all? Maybe it is being confused with something else? Grit and courage and competitiveness, which I think you do need, but which you can also find in a gelding or a mare and which can be hidden behind a quiet exterior?
 
JohnBauer said:
I agree that it is inadvisable for a evaluator to express personal opinions on an open breeding forum on the topic of stallions - because this is only asking for criticism but i think to imply that a certain evaluator would be biased in favour/or against a particular stallion before the event could be deemed as slanderous.
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I agree totally with your point on evaluators expressing personal opinions on stallions in an open forum - although I'd call it unforgivable rather than inadvisable.

But in view of the comments made by said evaluator, any suggestion that bias may be shown would NOT be defamatory IMHO - it would be 'fair comment'!
 
koeffee said:
one thing i would be worried about re comments on franklyn sugar is if Lesleypg is an evaluater with the futurity she would hold it against a foal being by fs??
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I am planning to take a couple of my youngsters to the futurity this year but if Lesleypg is one of the evaluaters there then I think I may not bother in view of her comments on my stallion on this forum!
 
Here goes! First of all may I say that I am very relieved to see some feedback on the event which was the best attended ever. It was very quiet over the weekend and I was worried that you were all bored!

I think we lost a little evening atmosphere because there was more room but it was the best one so far so next year...wow! The stallion owners and presenters were loads more professional and organized and there was hardly a spare moment for my impromptu interviewing as they ran in so seamlessly. Also, the audience are really getting the hang of this clapping and stomping business. We are heading in the right direction.

Let's be clear...all stallions are a matter of personal taste and usually heart over head. You can take all the info you like but unless you are really "in love" you are not going to be content. Masculinity is a criteria for stallion grading but I think this is something about presence and substance (physical development) which in the current system means "well" but not "over developed" at 21/2 or 3 years. Some very masculine stallions are very pretty and for my taste, I love a beautiful head and neck. Some people think my mares are masculine because they have well developed necks and my stallions I prefer to have even more "quality" than the mares. Even older stallions can have "quality". Wenckstern has a gorgeous face.

My personal opinion is that almost all the stallions were "serious", offering a variety of improving characteristics. Temperament should always be high on the list and every stallion has a number of weaknesses. It is the job of the breeder to make sure that they do not double up on "weaknesses" with their mare. If they want to breed good foals types, they need a stallion with a record for breeding winning foals or being a winning foal himself. If you want a Grand Prix horse, then the stallion should have gone Grand Prix or made Grand Prix children. If a stallion has a short neck...don't use it on a mare with a short neck. It is all very simple, really.
 
To go back to Ciss's post she said
One final point, the Futuity deliberately does not have a section for masculinity / feminity in its assessment criteria. This is becuase this attribute has little or no influence on performance (except that an unruly colt may well need to be gelded in order to perform in competition to the best of its physical ability) and masculinity and feminity are seen as important factors in studbook assessments FOR BREEDING and should therefore be left to them. OTOH, this can lead to confusion when a highly marked animal scores much less well in its grading or studbook assessment, but in such cases the conformation, paces etc assessents are usually pretty similar (ie high) but it is the masculinity / femininity score that lets the animal down in its grading.
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Sadly this has not been my experience. I've bought two young fillies who have both gone on to be graded Elite at the Futurity. One was highest scoring 3yo in the country, the other was 3rd best. Within weeks of their Futurities both were taken to their respective studbook gradings. The best 3yo dressage filly in the country was graded as being less than average at her grading. The 3rd best in the country was graded as being a little better than average but not good enough to go in the top studbook. Sickened does not come close to how I felt.

But at both studbook gradings my 3yo was the only 3yo in the class. Although 3 year olds are supposed to be judged separately to the older horses because they have a class of one they amalgamate it with the older horses and a 3yo simply cannot hold their own against mature horses.

Since those gradings both fillies (now mares) have been seen by some top dressage riders and rated very highly indeed. In view of this I think the Futurity gives a better assessment of young horses than studbook gradings do. After all, the Futurity assessors are looking at literally hundreds of foals to 3yo horses in a very short space of time. They have plenty of practice "getting their eye in" on a young horse.

What I learned is never, ever take your 3yo filly to be graded in the UK. Wait till she is mature, under saddle and muscled up. If you don't your filly will be penalised for being young.
 
stolensilver said:
What I learned is never, ever take your 3yo filly to be graded in the UK. Wait till she is mature, under saddle and muscled up. If you don't your filly will be penalised for being young.
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This is very sad as in Europe practially every filly is presented for grading at 3 years old, with saddle tests and residential performance tests following on at 4 and 5 years old for the really high scoring ones destined for the Head Studbook. Only rather backward / immature fillies -- or those that were sick or lame at 3 years old -- are usually presented at 4 years old for initial grading and all the grading judges KNOW what level of development, maturity and feminity to look for in a 3 year old filly. Sadly it would appear that many grading judes in the UK do not -- or that mare owners are reluctant to put their 3 year old fillies forward becuase no-one else does, thus re-inforcing a vicious cycle. Unfortunately in a number of studbooks the same sort of situation occurs in stallion grading, where the judges can seem so unsure of being able to identify potential in a 3 year old (in mainland Europe of course they start doing it at 2 1/2 years old) that they rarely pass anything of that age (however well bred, athletic, masculine and well tempered it is) becuase 'it has no proven competition record' <sigh>. Until the UK studbooks concerned realise how poorly they are serving Britrish breeding by using stallion graders without this skill -- or in the case of those that use experienced grading judges from abraod whose advice on such matters is not taken -- then this situation will continue and promising sires will be gelded and top class mares allotted to unecessarily low studbook sections having not been recognsied as such just becuase of the assessment process involved.
 
Well covered Ciss. It is always a problem with some Studbooks that the Judges sent to the UK can vary in their assessments of those animals presented. If it is any consolation, it is the same when the commissions work anywhere abroad. results vary from place to place.
In Studbook inspections, the studbook "type" and "femininity" of a filly or mare is a key component for placing in the studbook. This is a breeding assessment. Scores also work off a slightly different base line with a 7 being. as always, "fairly good" but applied to a much larger population.

A Futurity evaluation is for sport and type is only relevant for function and in the UK, we are able to embrace a much wider specification and we do not have the responsibilities of a Studbook commission from some Studbooks to move the type and gene pool in a certain direction.
 
I thought the dressage stallions were brilliant. We are definitely getting more towards the quality in Holland and Germany but we just don't have the statistics to back up what these stallions produce in the same way as they do abroad.

Another vote for Cash Point. I have a foal by him who is a good mover and such an easy temperamment.
 
Very, very well said Woodlander.

I think it was a fabulous, well supported evening & I agree some of the atmosphere that was quite overwhelming last year was lost due to the extra space. However, I think it seemed to attract a lot of new faces & overall was a stunning success.

Going back to stallions I had quoted that i wasn't sure Mr Big Cat was 'wow' enough for me. I think Woodlander summed it up beautifully when saying she prefers her stallions to have more quality than the mares. My mare is quite plain, I think Mr Big Cat is the right stallion for the mare (except for 17hh x 17hh with a 5ft4 rider!) except I worry that the end result won't be enough quality for what i am looking for. His temprament is fantastic with a good attitude to his work.

Each to their own & lets face it if we all liked only one type or one stallion we'd soon get bored with the number of similar horses out there.

Here's to British Breeding in the future!
 
Well Lesley P-G just wanted to say thank you because if I hadn't read what you'd said about Franklyn Sugar I wouldn't have been as interested in seeing if I agreed with you.
What a revelation, beautiful chap, moved like a cat on his feet and obviously trainable.
He also had good limbs and excellent feet.
I went and checked him closely in his box and he was friendly but very aware of who he was.
Your comments re not "stallion enough" I'm afraid I totally disagree with, he was stallion enough for me to decide to use him with one of my mares this year.
I had never met his owners or connections either, so a totally unbiased opinion from me.
I also went and watched Future Illusion who appeared a totally laid back type, poor chap must have felt as if he had ants in his pants at Hartpury with an allergic reaction, at Addington he didn't put a hoof wrong..
I hope anyone reading your opinion will remember it's just that, YOUR opinion and go and make their own minds up, I did and am really looking forward to a foal in 2013.
 
As I said , for ME, I was talking with reference to the feeling I had for mares that I had in mind! A different couple of mares for different owners with different needs would most likely produce a different view.
It is possible to make a critical assessment without that being totally negative. I did not in anyway condem any stallion, I said they had great sport ability in all cases!
When looking to produce a better offspring than the mare it must be possible to question the qualities you are looking to Improve on, or the most salient aspects . After all there is no such thing as the perfect horse.
To suggest I would be biased in any future situations regarding assessment of products of any stallion is actually totally unfounded . I veiw offspring with a clear mind and look puely for the 'form and function'
When looking at a 'grading' where type has a little more influence then decisions may be a little different.
Few of you know of my own personal experiences, I have been a ( in the past ) been a 100 day test rider for a German stud book so any questions I form are related to the type of questions I was asked regarding stallions in that situation.
When questioning 'sharp or hot' behaviour again it relates to the requirements for that foal. I personally love very sharp horses but most people and riders would not find that their chomps tea and a non professional who does not have the time or inclination to ride such a horse should consider that. It is exactly that, a consideration relative to the mare and your needs as a breeder but also with an eye on the end use and the long term future of the products of breeding decisions.
Happy healthy foals with good prospects are a goal for all.
 
cruiseline said:
OK so who went to Hartpury and what were your thoughts on the stallions presented?

I have heard glowing reports about Don VHP and Cooper Van De Heffinckm, also some not so glowing reports about others.

Thoughts please people :D
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I fell in love with Tresor Mail, he was so nice in the stables. much nicer to cuddle than my gelding at home!! Jaguar mail was like meeting a celebrity...! :p if I win the lottery maybe!! :rolleyes:

I was (along with everybody around me) AMAZED by supertramp!!! what an acheivement to get a 3 year old (I doubt he was actually 3 at that point in Feb?!) trotting and cantering round that atmosphere and behaving better than lots of the old boys!! Looking forward to seeing what he does for Woodlander! :)
Another baby was meadows pony stallion, Romulus, he wasnt quite as well behaved as Supertramp (which would take some beating!) but still very impressive for pony breeders, mum and I wanted to buy a pony mare after seeing him which we thought must be a good sign (we'r NOT!!:eek:)

I liked Wickstead Digeridoo (sp could be wrong there!) but didnt have a real chance to look at him properly in the stables or trotting up but he came across as a bargain as he has a good chance of going to the olympics this year!

there were tons more impressive stallions, nearly every single one, these were just the ones that stood out for one reason or another for me :)

lesleypg said:
Treliver Decanter had come on so much under his new rider a much much better representation if what the horse has to offer but it is HOT!! The DiMaggio has much to bring to the table but sometimes they are hot!
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By hot do you mean the same as sharp? if so I have to disagree with this personally and this is one of the main reasons I have chosen him for 2012/13 I have met him so many times I think Gill will take out a restraining order soon :rolleyes: not once has he come across as sharp I have seen him in his trailer, warming up at competitions, at the stallion show and cooling down. even cooling down after his show at Hartpury he was wired but stood stock still while we patted him and fed him polos (I also took the opportunity to ask him for a filly!!)
I think any stallion trained to that level, in that arena, under spotlights,loud music, atmosphere,tradestands,clapping should appear....stallion enough?!!! :p *chukkles!!*

lesleypg said:
When questioning 'sharp or hot' behaviour again it relates to the requirements for that foal. I personally love very sharp horses but most people and riders would not find that their chomps tea and a non professional who does not have the time or inclination to ride such a horse should consider that.
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again, I may have misinterpreted what you are saying so apologies if I have but I hope by this you are not suggesting all amateurs dont have the time to ride sharp horses?! Most of my amateur friends like to have a sharp horse. I prefer to ride straightforward horses but have accidentally bought two in a row that are sharp, one left a dodo and the second I still have and is almost tame after 2 years, he now restrains his bad behaviour to the lunge mostly. Its possible that these 'sharp' horses dont suit the highly strung environment of a professional yard - so makes them sharp (or stallion enough..*hehe!*)

Just to add, this is my opinion in response to your opinion! :)
 
-Also, I did say on the facebook page that the talk with Bernard Le Courtois was about 2 hours too short!! :o
Would be BRILLIANT if somebody with contacts could organise 'an evening with Bernard Le Courtois' talking through his stallions, especially if some of the mares could be there aswell, Jamesmead (I think?!!) did say this might be possible to organise for next year. Im sure there would be alot of interest!!
If I gave up breeding I think I would go just because I have enjoyed it so much two years in a row. :)
 
lesleypg said:
Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
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With all due respect Lesleypg, you did mention stallions by their names and you did focus on a negative (in your opinion) not masculine enough.

I very much agree with you that everyone is allowed their opinion but I do feel in your position, its not really advisable to be negative about specific stallions on an open forum, especially when its not based on bad performance or behaviour, it was actually based on exceptional behaviour!. I have never met you but after the comments on here I received a personal Facebook message from someone you obviously know, that said "Maybe LPG actually has an issue with the people & not the horse!" I have no idea what this means as I don't know you and never have known you. Can you advise if our paths have ever crossed and if so what i may have done to offend you. I really hope we can meet one day and maybe chat over a coffee, Im very friendly and still relatively new to the breeding game, so very happy to listen to a more experienced professional. Also i hope if/and when you may judge our first crop I can put to rest any of your reservations on masculinity vs type. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

All the above is written in a positive and lighthearted manner, not wanting to cause any more drama!
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but now a Futurity Evaluator has come out with her opinion of more than one stallion. Treliver Decanter is hot, but she likes sharp horses. Franklyn Suger is not, so presumably not hot enough. She likes Springsteen, one of the better Catherston horses, and has an opinion on some of the Woodlander horses.

We all have opinions, but it doesn't seem appropriate for someone, whose credentials are not in doubt, to pass open judgment when they will be judging these stallions offspring. If I were a Judge or Evaluator, and I didn't like a stallion whose progeny were in front of me, I'd be hard pushed to remain totally impartial. However, had I also posted my opinion on a public forum then it would be very easy for the owners of the horse being judged not to draw the obvious conclusion if they were marked down. :rolleyes:
 
Well, I am thoroughly disappointed by the comments by LPG. I have had youngstock evaluated by her at the futurity and have been satified by the comments which were fair.

However, will I bring my Franklyn Sugar foal (Due in the spring) to next year's futurity if LPG is one of the evaluators?
Well, probably yes, but only because I will have booked and paid for it before I find out who the evaluators are.

It's not just stallion owners who are understandably annoyed when their stallions are disussed negatively, especially when it is wholly undeserved on a forum, it's us mare owners too. We are trying to use the best stallions with the hope of producing a quality foal with a high market value. Negative comments about the stallion could impact on the value of my foal too.

Don't underestimate the impact of forums, especially this one. Any google search on a specific stallion will bring up comments on this forum, which is valuable research for mare owners.

Anyone who passes judgement on other people's horses for a living, be it a futurity evaluator or a dressage judge etc, should absolutely not discuss their opinions in a professional or personal capacity on this, or any other forum.
 
Well said, I have apparently used a stallion who throws quirky stock. All I can say is that the two I bred from different temperament mares are the most straightforward foals ever.
 
Could I please say at this point as the person who asked Lesleypg for her opinion of the dressage stallions that whilst all of the comments made above raise valid concerns and almost certainly need to be said, I have a little experience of Lesleypg personally having been a steward at some futurities and also been lucky enough to shadow the evaluators a few years ago. I do not know all the evaluators or how they might evaluate/mentally assess the horse in front of them due to for knowledge of its breeding but I can say reasonably confidently that in the futurity setting you will get a fair assessment from Lesleypg and the few other evaluators I have witnessed at work.
Please remember when the inevitable storm breaks and someone gets a comment they think isn't fair that the evaluators can only say what they see in a very short snap shot of your horses life and no one can be right all the time plus as horse people in general that whilst some of these comments have caused understandable sore spots and people are quite right to say if they feel slighted or wronged, we are not a community known for its tactful way of putting things. Not just H and H forum but british horse people in general so we may all be guilty of having said the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
cherry garden, I agree and at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding :)
Im excited and anxious all in one for our first crop to be evaluated. I know I will hear some good and some bad, its the nature of the beast. Im prepared :)
mentally that is, may need to squeeze a bit of fitness training in first though!
 
I have no foals due this year Sugar house so am looking forwards to seeing everyone elses - no wait there is one due by my stallion fingers crossed all going well and am really looking forward to seeing that one as it is the first one out of a coloured, pc, wooly cob mare. I am quite excited about that and seeing how it turns out she is the sweetest mare.
I shall be looking forward to seeing your babies too : )
 
Monkers said:
Anyone who passes judgement on other people's horses for a living, be it a futurity evaluator or a dressage judge etc, should absolutely not discuss their opinions in a professional or personal capacity on this, or any other forum.
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Hear hear

Especially when LPG was also riding one of the other dressage stallions presented at Hartpury.

Lack of fair play, as well as professionalism in my opinion. :(
 
Really? I didn't know that, all the more reason to maintain a dignified silence. Of course, if asked there is a way of expressing your opinions without nailing your colours so firmly to the mast.
 
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