Why are half bred horses ok but half bred dogs aren't?!

[MagicMelon]

Getting a bit fed up of seeing things on facebook slagging off "designer" dog mixed breeds. What I dont get is why is it acceptable that we all think half bred horses (Anglo Arabs, ID x TB's etc.) are absolutely fine but in a dog thats just awful? Yes, cross breeds cost a bit but who cares if it can potentially give a dog a really nice personality? We have a labradoodle, she is NOT a mongrel - a mongrel in my eyes is like a Heinz 57 horse, you dont know the breeding. I know the breeding in my dog.

 

[Dry Rot]

I can't see anything wrong in cross breeding for a purpose. Plenty of examples amongst working breeds. Where do you think Labrador retrievers came from? Or Flat coat retrievers? In Ireland, the 'dropper' is a well known gundog crated by crossing two recognised breeds. It has the retrieving instincts of a retrieving breed (spaniel or Lab, for example) combined with a working pointer or setter so you (hopefully) end up with a dog with a moderate range that also points and retrieves (which is how many of the 'purebred' Continental pointer-retrievers originated).

But breeding to produce a fluffy pet that has eye appeal and nothing much else so it is easier to sell is immoral. Horses are working animals and are usually crssed to produce an intermediate type between two or more defined breeds.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Breeding for looks alone is just plain wrong. Any breed. Any animal.

 

[paddi22]

it can also give a range of very undesirable traits when people just cross breeds with the main aim being cuteness and a twee name. Apart from encouraging unscrupulous breeders breeding issues into the puppies, there is also the issue of them breeding dogs with opposing traits, causing them issues behaviourwise.

 

[paddi22]

Yes, cross breeds cost a bit but who cares if it can potentially give a dog a really nice personality?

there are plenty of 'normal' (ie not faddy, overpriced) dogs who also have nice personalities. probably a higher percentage as they aren't unsuitable crosses just picked for cutenes..

 

[ycbm]

I'm really struggling to understand what is wrong with breeding from good parents for colour and cuteness. The cocker poos and labradoodles I know are all delightful dogs utterly adored by their owners.

Many of the pedigree dogs, on the other hand, look to me as if they are approaching being deformed.

Nothing should be bred just because they are cute and lovely? All horse cross breeds have a job to do? Tell that to my completely loved and cherished miniature paint Shetland. Shock, horror, she's my toy as far as I'm concerned.

Price is only an indicator of demand. These dogs aren't overpriced, they sell at that price because people want them

There is so much snobbery in dog breeding, thankfully it isn't the same level in cats, where most of us own moggies.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I think you have actually just stated what the problem is in many cases ycbm. People buy for colour and cuteness without looking into the reality of what the parents are bred for. Round here there seem to be no end of labradoodles and springadors who their owners really can't cope with. They buy the cute fluffy puppies and don't consider they are buying the product of 2 working breeds that need to be kept busy. We have a customer at the shop where I work who has a labradoodle that is destroying his house and running rings round him. I suggested he took him to training classes and pointed out that both breeds were designed to work and he was amazed. He had no idea even that labradors were gundogs, never mind how intelligent poodles were. I also suggested he considered castrating the dog and like so many male owners he was horrified at the prospect.
You only have to look at the fact that the man who bred the first labradoodles now regrets doing it and in his words "opening a pandora's box".

 

[ycbm]

But what you describe is no different than dog owning has always been, is it?. The difference that I can see is the sheer number of people who now want to own a dog, but the stupid owners have always been there taking on the next door neighbour's mongrel accidents. When I was a child many decades ago my puppy was paralysed on his first outside walk by an out of control retriever.

People have always owned cute mongrels. This argument appears to me only about giving them cute 'breed' names.

 

[Alec Swan]

……..

But breeding to produce a fluffy pet that has eye appeal and nothing much else so it is easier to sell is immoral. Horses are working animals and are usually crssed to produce an intermediate type between two or more defined breeds.

I suspect that when breeding and crossing between different breeds has a 'purpose' then there's purpose behind the breeding. Simply breeding for appearance achieves very little I suspect.

Was it Sharpe who in the late 19th century noted that there were those who crossed Labradors with English Pointers in the hope of getting a dog which would both point and retrieve, but found that the results were generally dogs which did neither?!! It's obviously worked for others which is why we have the HPRs, but the view of most is that, with gundogs anyway, it's better to breed for the single disciplines; Labs retrieve, Spaniels hunt and Pointers point. Expecting to retain discipline with a dog which is bred to hunt and then allowing it to also retrieve is generally where the problems start.

I've bred a fair few lurchers over the years, and think that it's a bit like breeding Event horses, in that the different disciplines often conflict with each other, and that generally we find that two horses which Event successfully aren't always the best idea. It's the same with lurchers in that a top class dog put to a similar bitch rarely seems to work. We continue, with the best of those which we breed, to return to a base pure-bred dog on one side or the other.

Designer x-breeds have no purpose that I can see beyond being ornaments. Some will be ok from the standpoint of temperament whilst others won't, and the same can be said for pure-bred dogs. When cross-breeding the argument will always be the same in that when it works, or doesn't, cross-breedig will be the reason given!

Alec.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Ah but as you say, they were accidents, not specifically bred and costing a fortune. I think dog owning was different years ago, to start with not so many dogs were left all day, quite often the mother of the family didn't work. Dogs were often let out to exercise themselves so probably weren't full of energy with nowhere to burn it off. And dare I say it , people were firmer in their training methods, so I think dogs in general were better behaved.

 

[CorvusCorax]

There are as many ill tempered doodles and poos as there are pedigree dogs.

My 'deformed' pedigree dog has a squillion generation traceable pedigree, best possible health scores, the highest working qualification he can attain, passed an endurance test and has a 'very good' show rating. Plus he's a pet who lives in my house, clambers over me on the sofa, and we climb mountains too on our days off. Oh and he cost less than £400 by today's conversion rate.

People will pay what they want to pay, for what they want. Not everyone would like my dog or want him in their house, but I'm over the moon with him and he's everything I've ever wanted to have in a dog.

 

[ycbm]

Ah but as you say, they were accidents, not specifically bred and costing a fortune. I think dog owning was different years ago, to start with not so many dogs were left all day, quite often the mother of the family didn't work. Dogs were often let out to exercise themselves so probably weren't full of energy with nowhere to burn it off. And dare I say it , people were firmer in their training methods, so I think dogs in general were better behaved.

Interestingly, though, when anyone questions the price of a pedigree puppy, the answer given is always that puppies cost a lot to breed. So what are the additional costs of breeding pedigrees over carefully bred cross breeds?

And why does anyone care what someone else wants to pay for a puppy?

If love a Bengal, Burmese, Maine Coon(e) kitten but I won't pay the price. I don't turn my nose up at people who do though? So why do some dog owners?

 

[ycbm]

Please be aware that when I wrote that some pedigree dogs look deformed to me that I was not talking about anyone's particular dog. I didn't think that should need saying but it obviously does!

 

[CorvusCorax]

My dog is of a breed which is regularly labelled as such.

 

[luckyoldme]

i quite like ycbm s take on this. I know a couple who bred a lovely litter of springer doodles, all going to carefully vetted homes , and much love and care gone in to the whole process.
I really don t get the whole snootiness, theres good and bad in both the pedigree and crossbreed world.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Interestingly, though, when anyone questions the price of a pedigree puppy, the answer given is always that puppies cost a lot to breed. So what are the additional costs of breeding pedigrees over carefully bred cross ?

Health tests on the parents, registration of each pup and DNA etc.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I take it you didnt watch Panorama last night about puppy farming and most of the puppies were designer breeds(x breeds). Any dog unless fully health tested shouldnt be bred imo and should be of good temperament and fit for purpose. These designer dogs mostly come from puppy farms which is in itself is a reason for not buying, when these puppies are sold they cost more than a fully health tested pedigree dog so it always about the money.
As a fosterer I am seeing more and more of these dogs coming into rescue as people cant cope with their highly strung temperaments and their impossible to groom coats, why should rescue have to pick up the pieces?

I am not a snob, my sister has a fantastic Spanish rescue dog who is a heinz 57 but she is beautiful and has a very laid back chilled temperament but I am anti designer dog unless the crosses are compatible and both parents fully health tested and screened.

What about your dog OP? was it hip & elbow scored and all of the other tests required for the breed?

 

[AmyMay]

I suppose that at the end of the day we all own a dog that is the result of cross breeding somewhere in its history - the 'breed' wouldn't exist otherwise.

 

[blackcob]

^^ or the similar example from the recent BBC2 program where the chap went to see a cavapoo pup, was advised of the relevant health tests that the parents should have had, confirmed that the mother hadn't had them and then bought the puppy anyway...

That is the thing that gets people's backs up when it comes to designer crossbreeds - the further opportunities it creates for puppy farming, the almost willful ignorance surrounding health issues, temperament, behavioural expectations, coat maintenance etc. The same goes for a lot of pedigree breeding, to be fair, there are always idiots looking to make money and idiots buying unsuitable dogs, it's just that the demand for designer crossbreeds just seems to be adding fuel to the fire.

I can't really point fingers, I bought something advertised as a crossbreed that turned out to be an unregistered pedigree, nothing about that dog was suitable for us. All worked out well in the end but it was a very steep learning curve. The subsequent carefully considered rescue dog and pedigree puppy were both a breeze in comparison, we knew exactly what we were getting.

 

[ester]

I have nothing against cross breeds from health tested parents.

BC I cannot believe she let him buy that cavapoo for £800 odd quid! From a bitch that had clearly had a fair few 'yearly' litters with no testing and not a pet.

 

[ester]

There are as many ill tempered doodles and poos as there are pedigree dogs.

My 'deformed' pedigree dog has a squillion generation traceable pedigree, best possible health scores, the highest working qualification he can attain, passed an endurance test and has a 'very good' show rating. Plus he's a pet who lives in my house, clambers over me on the sofa, and we climb mountains too on our days off. Oh and he cost less than £400 by today's conversion rate.

People will pay what they want to pay, for what they want. Not everyone would like my dog or want him in their house, but I'm over the moon with him and he's everything I've ever wanted to have in a dog.

and you should let us have more pics too

I can remember you saying the vets were worried about his pasterns at 5/6 months?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I was concerned about them, but he's five now and a proper powerhouse and showing no signs of slowing down. It appears to be a cosmetic thing and certainly doesn't have an impact on his ability to work, thankfully! His father's are also quite long.

Haven't done Photobucket for years, wouldn't know where to even look!!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

BC I cannot believe she let him buy that cavapoo for £800 odd quid! From a bitch that had clearly had a fair few 'yearly' litters with no testing and not a pet.

he's an adult who made up his own mind I guess. I am more shocked that they couldn't find a cavapoo closer to Cheltenhem lol.

 

[minesadouble]

It's also a way for an owner of a pedigree bitch to milk her for all she's worth. Once she's had her quota of KC registered pups and subsequent litters cannot be registered X breeding means she can still make the owner dome money.

 

[smja]

I have trouble with the way that some owners seem to be unaware that their designer crossbreed is NOT actually a breed - my uncle, a well educated and otherwise sensible man who has owned dogs in the past, asked me the other day how big I thought his new cockapoo would get. When I told him it depended on the parents he was taken aback - he thought they would all be small like the one his friend has, because they were the same "breed".

Note - it doesn't really matter how big the dog gets, he's had big dogs in the past, it was more his surprise that, well, surprised me!

 

[Mince Pie]

The problem I've found is people are A) charging a fortune for these dogs, B) breeding just to be able to give them a silly name - you mention ID x TB but not cocker x poodle, rather call it a cockerpoo (and I'm sorry but having the word 'poo' at the end of my dogs 'breed' just sounds ridiculous!), and C) as has been mentioned, you now have the needs and traits of 2 different breeds of dog to think about when a lot of new dog owners don't even think of 1.

 

[ester]

IDxTB = ISH though

 

[stencilface]

Well, there are two types of dogs, pedigrees and mongrels. I know what cross my dog is (well fairly sure, they're quite distinctive) but he's not a Grottie, he's a mongrel.

Someone probably did 'design' the cross (and well done for crossing two breeds both prone to hip problems) and although it's given me a lovely rescue dog I don't necessarily think it was a wise choice.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I just can't stand the stupid names these dogs have and it seems this is what makes them so appealing to some people to make them want to spend a ridiculous amount of money on one, but I suppose while people are willing to pay it they will keep breeding them.

I did watch the puppy farm programme last night and I know quite a few people that have looked at dogs and the seller has used the "my daughter has taken mummy dog down to our caravan so she is not here to see" must be a common one these fraudsters use.

 

[Dry Rot]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is no legislating against stupidity!