Why are horses so cheap?

thatsmygirl said:
£5k to me personally is silly money and I wouldn't pay it for any horse I'm afraid.
Maybe there's to many lower level riders like me who don't care about the horses breeding as most well put together horses will do the job I want and don't need to pay £5k and just wouldn't.
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This. And I don't understand why you would spend £3000 plus on a three year old. The breeder I have brought from sells their just backed youngsters for no more than £1500/2000 depending on how much they have done.
He doesn't make a loss.
His stallion runs with the mares, they all live out. No extra feed etc and they are good quality horses will lovely temperaments.
The most I have ever spent on a horse is £3000 with tack and rugs and he was for his temperament.
 
If you are going to breed and rear horses to 3 years of age, and if (note the "if") you provide adequate feed, vaccinations, worming and farrier care, not to mention stud fees, passporting, chipping, breed registration, handling and training, and knowledgeable initial selection of breeding stock, it will cost in the region of £800 - £1,000 per year. If, however, you don't do any of the above, then yes, you can produce horses for next to nothing. I know which one I'd be prepared to pay for.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
This. I'm another who wouldn't pay that sort of money for a horse.

Horses are cheap because there are lots of them.

As for another post about breeders making a loss, not the ones I know. They rent the land and would pay the same whether there's 2 horses or 20 on it. They own the mares and stallion. Beyond very basic horse care there are no bills. I think their main vet cost is castration. They ride themselves and will ride whatever hasn't been sold yet, until one day it is. They have ponies and cobs with nice temperaments which have been used for hacking and are easy keepers, surviving with minimal care. Something plenty of people want. It's easy money for them. They certainly don't need to charge 5k to make a profit.
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The "breeders" you describe are just that, they are churning out indiscriminately with little to no care given, low cost, low value stock with a fair amount probably inbred or with physical problems, no proper breeding programme, breeding from unsound stock, as long as they make a bit of profit they continue to supply more to an already full market, most may have a nice temperament and be easy keepers but that is only useful if they stay sound enough to actually do the job they get bought to do.

The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
 
be positive said:
The "breeders" you describe are just that, they are churning out indiscriminately with little to no care given, low cost, low value stock with a fair amount probably inbred or with physical problems, no proper breeding programme, breeding from unsound stock, as long as they make a bit of profit they continue to supply more to an already full market, most may have a nice temperament and be easy keepers but that is only useful if they stay sound enough to actually do the job they get bought to do.

The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
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Very wise words.
 
be positive said:
Anyone who reads the posts on here regularly soon works out who is experienced and knowledgeable, AA is one of the more experienced posters whose opinion is worth taking on board, you do not have to know people personally to have an opinion of them.
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Auslander said:
I do, but it wouldn't make a difference if I didn't. It's always glaringly obvious which HHO'ers knows what they are taliking about, and which just think they do
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I suppose tbh I don't post here often anymore so not with it now,
 
be positive said:
The "breeders" you describe are just that, they are churning out indiscriminately with little to no care given, low cost, low value stock with a fair amount probably inbred or with physical problems, no proper breeding programme, breeding from unsound stock, as long as they make a bit of profit they continue to supply more to an already full market, most may have a nice temperament and be easy keepers but that is only useful if they stay sound enough to actually do the job they get bought to do.

The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
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Why the assumption the horses are inbred, unsound and from unsound parents? They're not. They're not full of health issues either. Fuelling the low end market, yes, but what's wrong with that? They're providing people with what they want to buy. Seems like good business sense to me. Better business sense than wanting 5k for their 3yr old and being unable to sell it because its too much horse for a lot of those looking to buy and too much money for someone who wants mainly to hack when they can get a suitable animal for a fraction of the price.

This comment is not aimed at anybody in particular but I am finding this thread quite snobby TBH. Comments like novices shouldn't own horses, low end animals aren't worth buying at all, people shouldn't be involved with horses purely for the social side etc. I think people should do what they want with their lives including own horses if they like, for whatever reason. As long as they're having fun, the horse has adequate care and they can ride/handle it well enough to be safe. I find HHO very strange and not at all representative of normal life at times.
 
be positive said:
The breeders that do everything properly, have veterinary care when required, breed from proven bloodlines being prepared to cull from the programme anything that has an issue of soundness, register all their stock correctly with breed societies etc will need to get in the region of £5k for a 4-5 year old in order to cover their expenses, there is no guarantee that they will stay sound, do the job but at least you know they have been regularly wormed, properly handled and had a decent start in life.

What people will pay is down to the individual, I have bought cheap horses but I would not buy directly from backyard breeders as it encourages them to churn out even more.
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The breeders I am.on.about in my post are not back yard breeders. Their stallions are registered, colts get castrated, all health checks are performed to show none of the breeds health problems are there and all horses are passported with the breed society.

They have their own land and have been breeding for 40 years plus and are well known in these circles.

Also we brought from them for my disabled brother, the temperament of these horses are well known, they can turn a hoof to anything.
 
JFTD said:
I know the well bred highlands that circulate, yes. I'm not interested in the ignorant, cobbled together ones that go cheap...
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I would agree highland make money, I only got mine cheap as he wasn't show quality as he had a bit of white on one fetlock but didnt matter for my needs as he wasn't to show
 
thatsmygirl said:
I would agree highland make money, I only got mine cheap as he wasn't show quality as he had a bit of white on one fetlock but didnt matter for my needs as he wasn't to show
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Mine were nowhere near 5k either, but both unbroken youngsters, not ready to go hack / all rounder types. A proper (registered, well put together and properly trained) highland isn't a cheap option by any means.

(Although I can't bring myself to care even a little about a bit of white here or there. If it's well put together, and can do the job, what does it really matter?! :D )
 
By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.
 
Slightlyconfused said:
The breeders I am.on.about in my post are not back yard breeders. Their stallions are registered, colts get castrated, all health checks are performed to show none of the breeds health problems are there and all horses are passported with the breed society.

They have their own land and have been breeding for 40 years plus and are well known in these circles.

Also we brought from them for my disabled brother, the temperament of these horses are well known, they can turn a hoof to anything.
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No I agree, I also know a breeder who produces very good stock all registered etc but do so at home and prices vary between 1000 - 2000 depending by what sire, all are very well handled and done well!

If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect, i can appreciate if said horse has good breeding and your paying for that. The breeder near me prices his horses going by the current market in our area and the fact the horses are " blank canvas"
 
thatsmygirl said:
No I agree, I also know a breeder who produces very good stock all registered etc but do so at home and prices vary between 1000 - 2000 depending by what sire, all are very well handled and done well!

If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect, i can appreciate if said horse has good breeding and your paying for that. The breeder near me prices his horses going by the current market in our area and the fact the horses are " blank canvas"
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So you think that it is OK for breeders to lose money on their stock? The fact is that most breeders DO lose money (I gave up my stud farm for that very reason as I was not prepared to cut corners and was only interested in producing top quality), what bewilders me is why they would continue to breed if that is the case.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
Why the assumption the horses are inbred, unsound and from unsound parents? They're not. They're not full of health issues either. Fuelling the low end market, yes, but what's wrong with that? They're providing people with what they want to buy. Seems like good business sense to me. Better business sense than wanting 5k for their 3yr old and being unable to sell it because its too much horse for a lot of those looking to buy and too much money for someone who wants mainly to hack when they can get a suitable animal for a fraction of the price.

This comment is not aimed at anybody in particular but I am finding this thread quite snobby TBH. Comments like novices shouldn't own horses, low end animals aren't worth buying at all, people shouldn't be involved with horses purely for the social side etc. I think people should do what they want with their lives including own horses if they like, for whatever reason. As long as they're having fun, the horse has adequate care and they can ride/handle it well enough to be safe. I find HHO very strange and not at all representative of normal life at times.
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I totally agree with you, this thread has really interested me as to what people will pay etc and that lower priced horses must be low end stock which just isn't always the case.
 
My horses have never been above 3k. But then again, I have a Welsh Cob with fantastic blood lines and not show-worthy conformation, she was also incredibly green when I bought her - however, she is brave enough and talented enough to event and that's what I wanted her for. I then have a Clydesdale x TB with no recorded breeding, incredibly low mileage however perfect gent, hacks for hours, as much stamina as an arab and some rather fancy dressage moves! The Clyde's saddle made up the most of his sale price. :D

If I want a broodmare then i'll buy something with good breeding and good conformation. If I want a happy hacker I am quite happy to buy something with neither as long as conformation issues don't effect horse in long-run.

Personally, I won't buy a horse above 5k - that's more because you can find quality horses at a far cheaper price that may just need to have a bit more work put into them. What you wish to pay is a personal preference and honestly it's winter - horses are cheaper now anyway.
 
thatsmygirl said:
No I agree, I also know a breeder who produces very good stock all registered etc but do so at home and prices vary between 1000 - 2000 depending by what sire, all are very well handled and done well!

If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect, i can appreciate if said horse has good breeding and your paying for that. The breeder near me prices his horses going by the current market in our area and the fact the horses are " blank canvas"
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Yep agree.

The horses are so well handled and have manners. Have seen farriers. I would not want to pay £3000 plus for a three/four year old that has not done anything.
 
Cortez said:
So you think that it is OK for breeders to lose money on their stock? The fact is that most breeders DO lose money (I gave up my stud farm for that very reason as I was not prepared to cut corners and was only interested in producing top quality), what bewilders me is why they would continue to breed if that is the case.
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I think some breeders do charge silly prices for un proven horses, like I say if the background breeding is there off course you will get somebody who will pay for the breeding and that is understandable, but the horse will only be as good as the hands it falls in, but if they are willing to pay the price that's fine.
I don't agree that buyers should be paying for all the keep feed vet bills etc before becoming the owner, that is part of the job, you bred it and its your horse/your responsibility until you sell it. No normal seller would add all the keep, feed etc into the sell of their horse for the length off time they have owned it surely, price is based on the horses ability or/and breeding,parentage background.
 
Slightlyconfused said:
Yep agree.

The horses are so well handled and have manners. Have seen farriers. I would not want to pay £3000 plus for a three/four year old that has not done anything.
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I think this argument has split along two lines - what breeders are asking pricewise, and what horses are "worth". One of the reasons I stopped breeding was because I could buy marketable youngstock (and often older) that were the right age, sex, size, colour and athletic quality far, far cheaper than I could breed them. In essence I was taking advantage of other breeders misfortune (or lack of marketing expertise), and eliminating 80% of the risk. This tells me that the market was flooded, and I retired from the stud farm "business", happily.

But if people want to buy well bred horses in the future then breeders have to make a profit, surely? There are too many horses, and they are undervalued. So I return to the argument that there are too many amateurs involved.
 
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Very interesting thread.
We have three horses, only one cost the money that she deserved.

Topaz is not for the faint hearted but has a decent jump, talented on the flat, good to hack and fab cross country. She cost approx 5K , and was worth every penny and I think this was the correct price for her.

Doodle was cheap for what she's given us but probably a 'fair' price for the circumstances at the time. She was £1500 but at the time she was only just coming back from injury (at 12 years old), and being sold as the loaners wanted to give her back and the owner didn't want her back. She was advertised for about 2.2K but sold to us for what I had in savings as they wanted a good home.

Skylla was peanuts! The breeder will have made a substantial loss and I suspect the guy I bought her from did too. She was sold as the breeder lost his grazing and paid his worker with her instead of wages. She then was a bit much I think for the guy who took her and so he sold her on for very little (£500).

So I entirely agree that people should pay what it costs to realistically get the horse to a rideable age, but then I'm also a massive hypocrite as I did go out and look for a 'bargin'...
 
I often hear people who I otherwise regard as relatively sensible expressing odd views about the purchase price of horses (well, odd to me anyway).
Keeping a horse properly isn't cheap. If you are looking to buy a horse as a youngster and keep it for the rest of its days (and I know not everyone is), whether you spend £1k or £10k on buying it is really neither here nor there over the years you will own it.
I paid what I regard as a fair price for my youngster, but which some people on this thread would definitely regard as silly money. I did that because he's got a cracking temperament, he's beautifully put together, he's got far more ability and talent than I will ever be good enough to make use of, no matter how much training I have, and I know I will look forward to seeing his face over the stable door every night for the next 20-odd years. A waste of money and a good horse? Yes, probably.
But in a year of owning him I've probably spent nearly as much again on keeping him, training for us both, tack, gear etc., and over the next 20 years the purchase price will become increasingly irrelevant.
And I absolutely know that what I spent on buying him in no way supported what I regard as basically equine puppy farming, which is driving the welfare crisis. I wouldn't buy tea, coffee, sugar, bananas or clothes that were produced unethically, so why do that with a horse?
 
I remember talking to Sam Barr (of the world famous Welton stud, for those HHOers too young to have heard of him)

He had his own stallions, his own mares, he barned all the youngstock, like cattle, had his own feed, hay and straw. So about as low cost as you can get

and he reckoned that it cost him from conception to 5 yr old.... 5k and this was in the mid 90s.
 
''If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect''
So breeders are expected to provide you with a 'blank canvas' at their expense, what is the point of them breeding them? Also they have kept the mare for at least 18months and she has needed worming, her feet done, scanned, tested ,oh and then if you want to make sure of a quality animal, stud fee, keep or vets fees foe AI.
The old days of the farmer who would breed a couple of mares that would run along with his other stock and perhaps get a walk in stallion out of the old HIS scheme have long since gone. If someone is breeding at 'a loss', there has been some corners cut somewhere. And how many have the acreage to run horses on when they could just about make money from cattle or even a livery yard.
If you look on Preloved there are hardly animals over 16hands for sale unless they come from dealers yards or are TB. Supply and demand, the quality animal prices will go up eventually.
 
rachk89 said:
Well if I and others are that wrong then by all means go and tell the person that liked them to buy one of them. I don't look up tb lines as I doubt I will ever get a tb so will have to take your word on that I don't know if he is a good stallion. Maybe he is but I didn't like the fact the horse was hesitating before jumping some jumps. For cross country you want some bravery and if he is scared by fillers then you may have issues out on a course. And the one dropping his head going over fences is wrong but again if you think he is fine then go and let the person know as she has followed the advice of people like me and is looking for something with more experience.

I don't know many people who will pay*5k for a hacking horse and compete now and again but they tend to buy Highland ponies which are easy to find up here so they don't need to. Difference in markets between Scotland and England it seems.
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Interesting comments. I didn't actually state that you or anyone else is wrong and I did not recommend any of the horses be purchased. On the subject of sires, regardless of what breed, it is always worth looking at a pedigree and understanding it in relation to the requirements you may have from the potential horse you may be looking at. There is no 'may be a good stallion' in regards to the sire of the horse that you deem to be lacking in bravery and hesitant. No need to take my word, Kayf Tara needs no introduction as leading NH sire. There is nothing wrong in a young horse having a look at what he is doing and working out the problems in front of him. Intelligence v ignorant and careless, you decide. Out of the three, the Kayf Tara would be the most likely to event and/or team chase.

If you look at the skeletal structure of the horse, you will find that he does need to lower his head to allow the shoulders and forehand to lift and to enable the engine to engage. The structure of the skull is interesting as well, the horse cannot see the fence from a stride away. The horse you are saying 'drops his head over the fence' is on his forehand, that is a rider error, the horse has not been schooled or prepared to do what is being asked of him. You could test this out, jump a gate, if the horse has not dropped his head prior to take off, ring an ambulance.

What is your definition of a hacking horse ?
 
elliefiz said:
It's not usually professional breeders who are producing cheap, badly put together horses. Most are breeding to produce top quality animals be it native ponies or performance horses. It's the hobby breeders and the people who breed from mares they own for sentimental reasons that fuel the cheap market.
Germany has a much bigger land mass than the UK, it could support far more horses than the UK however they produce fewer foals there per year than the UK does. Because it is heavily regulated and controlled. I have driven all over Germany in the past year and can't recall seeing fields of neglected horses like you see here in the UK or indeed in Ireland where the problem is just as bad but for different reasons. Even browsing the various German horse magazines and websites, most horses offered for sale regardless of price, has some sort of recorded breeding and is purpose bred. It would be great if similar controls could be implemented here. Maybe someone else can say that I'm wrong, and there are big issues in Germany but I was told that the reason it is so regulated now is that there were issues in the past so necessary action was taken and it's working. It would be great if the UK could go the same direction, there are the resources in place now such as the British Breeders Network, the various stud books, etc to help and encourage breeders to breed the best they can and not go into the whole thing blindly and hoping to get lucky.
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I was using the term 'breeder' loosely
 
Cortez said:
I think this argument has split along two lines - what breeders are asking pricewise, and what horses are "worth". One of the reasons I stopped breeding was because I could buy marketable youngstock (and often older) that were the right age, sex, size, colour and athletic quality far, far cheaper than I could breed them. In essence I was taking advantage of other breeders misfortune (or lack of marketing expertise), and eliminating 80% of the risk. This tells me that the market was flooded, and I retired from the stud farm "business", happily.

But if people want to buy well bred horses in the future then breeders have to make a profit, surely? There are too many horses, and they are undervalued. So I return to the argument that there are too many amateurs involved.
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I also supposed it's how they are kept too which dictates the cost of breeding too.

The one I've mentioned all his horses live out, when mare is ready to drop she goes in the foaling paddock and when she and foal is ready go back in with the herd.

They are okay with stables as they come in to wait for farrier etc in stables but other than that they live out unrugged and left to be horses.

Though I have known other breeders that spend money on stud feed etc and stable them so I can see that the costs would add up.
 
hairycob said:
By the logic of some people a brand new Mercedes is over priced because you can get a 10yo dented Fiesta with 2 months MOT that will get you to the supermarket and back for a lot less.
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I thought exactly same .
And I rather drive the Mercedes ( well a range rover ) .
I could have bought a very cheap horse to do what I do now on but I didn't I bought a beautiful older horse with lots of valuable experience he was very expensive based on what some people on here think you should spend on a hacking fun type horse .
But it's just a privilege to sit on a horse like him ( well it will be when he's back to work ) and if you have the money why buy a Fiesta unless that is what you enjoy more.
 
There are some interesting comments on this thread and peoples perceptions are just that - but 5K for a registered large breed M&M pony capable of carrying an adult and going in a balanced manner sounds about right to me - that should buy you a pony who has been looked after and has decent conformation to carry out whatever job you require whether as a safe family pony, WHP/dressage/show/RC. The same price would seem reasonable for a RC type horse, but don't forget you M&M may require less mollycoddling and can live out even in the wet and rain. If the horse/pony doesn't meet the breed standard i.e. has white where it shouldn't then it will be a little cheaper as a youngster, before time has gone into schooling it. Interestingly there aren't many M&Ms for sale that are capable of doing for example an open WHP course, they are like hen's teeth and command a premium should you be fortunate in locating one. Yes there may be a few four year old novices about and their price ready to compete in novice classes will be upwards of 3K. If anyone was interested in bloodlines and studied those of any of the breeds they would discover that certain combinations have been consistent in producing stock who have good temperaments and ability while those at the cheaper end of the market haven't had the same time and thought given to them and therefore require more input from a new owner - in many cases these are the ones passed on as 'difficult' simply because people don't have the experience to bring on a young horse these days.
 
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Goldenstar said:
I thought exactly same .
And I rather drive the Mercedes ( well a range rover ) .
I could have bought a very cheap horse to do what I do now on but I didn't I bought a beautiful older horse with lots of valuable experience he was very expensive based on what some people on here think you should spend on a hacking fun type horse .
But it's just a privilege to sit on a horse like him ( well it will be when he's back to work ) and if you have the money why buy a Fiesta unless that is what you enjoy more.
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Absolutely agree.

The feel of a quality and educated horse is a privilege and it really hit home to me when I lost mine and started looking to buy.
 
thatsmygirl said:
If I sell a horse I don't expect the new owner to pay for say the last 4 years off keeping him/feed/vet bills etc but this seems to be what breeders expect
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Just out of interest, if you were to buy a new car, would you think it was fair to charge a purchase price that covered the cost of materials, the rent for the factory, the tools needed to build it, and the staff time to put it together?

If you're a breeder, as opposed to a hobby rider, you breed as your livelihood. Of course the sale value should reflect your costs - and the prices we're talking about don't allow for profit, just to cover costs.

It's completely different selling horses on later. The costs I incur are just the costs of having my hobby - money in = enjoyment out.

I'd expect a breeder to cover their costs in the same way I'd expect anyone making and selling any other new product to cover their costs.
 
cobgoblin said:
I don't know many people who would pay 5k for a hacking horse either.
There seems to be a great deal of snobbery over the cost of horses, and as someone else said, just because you paid a lot it doesn't necessarily mean the horse is 'better' or more suitable .
Not everyone wants a 'quality' horse, or could give two hoots about its breeding! Away from the rarified atmosphere of HHO this is the norm. People buy a horse because they like it, not because it has perfect conformation or a famous sire.

Prices are, as with everything, merely a reflection of the market.
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I would, without a second thought if it was a well put together animal, safe and sane in traffic, on the road, in open fields and in company.

Nothing to do with snobbery and everything to do with realising that you're looking for the Holy Grail - a well trained, sensible sound horse that will make hacking out a pleasure not a terrifying chore! Yes there are brave people (I was one of them once, many years ago so realise what it takes to make a nice horse) who are happy to put the work in to get to that standard but as a middle aged, semi crippled, nervous nellie I accept that I'm going to have to pay for the time that was put in since I won't do the training myself.

Alternatively I could go and buy a reasonably put together, not a world beater yearling for £1k. By the time I'd kept them until they were 4, paid out for training I still reckon that £5K for a 6 - 8 yo hacker would be a bargain :)
 
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