Why are horses so cheap?

PapaFrita said:
He is WAY on the forehand and doing everything he can to sort himself out. That, in itself, I LOVE. The rider isn't setting him up at ALL (perhaps intentional to show you how genuine the horse is) and he's only four. His knees are WAY up, so he's never going to tip up over a fence. For 3k I'd have him :)
This is my own baby (not so much of a baby any more, and much more forward going than horse in video), second time in jumping lane, checking jumps out with a magnifying glass ;)
You'd better not tell me he can't jump ;) :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0NV3VPghU
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Pfft he cant, you call that a horse? :p *hides from beating*

In all honesty now, yours at times looks the way I expect, then he throws in a jump where it looks like he is gonna stick his head between his knees and I'm going 'Ah! head up, dont fall!'.

There is a horse at the yard I am at that does jumping the way I am on about, its like he never looks at the jump. Yet he always knows what height it is and I've never seen him knock a fence yet. Jumping is his only skill though, he isnt so good at flat work and he doesnt like working properly and going round through his back. He just somehow manages to do well over 1m no problem. I think they were getting to 1.20 before he was silly and bruised his knee in the field. Its the same with a mare there, she does the same thing and she's done 1.20m before easily. She just flies over fences, only seen her knock one before and that shocked me.
 
Maybe they get some enjoyment out of it that makes it worth while so they are not looking at is as business but as something that makes them happy and if they can cover the costs then great if not they are enjoying doing it. They may enjoy choosing which mare goes to which stallion, seeing foals on the premises and growing up and perhaps taking them out to a few show in due time. They may also enjoy seeing the horses or ponies do well in the show ring or SJ or eventing or dressage making people happy as happy hackers or people on facebook and forums talking about how wonderful the horses they have bred are.

Some people will also be wanting to breed that next HOYs or Badminton winner or Valegro for prestige and will take some losses along the way.

Others enjoy the challenge of training a young horse and they may enjoy going to the shows so it not such a chore or hardship to attend rather a pleasure.

Prices are based on supply and demand. There is not a massive demand for young horses from amateurs as they often want a horse that they can ride and do things with easily without having to train the horse first. Hence the reason that experienced sound easy competition horses or hacking horses between age 7-12 are harder to find and cost more.

Breeders are not all the same so you are going to get different prices and quality - some do it for money only, other for status, and others because they want to home bred out of beloved mare, others do is as it is part of their culture - hence you might get large numbers of gypsy cobs, or semi feral ponies on dartmoor or the new forest or welsh mountains or failed race horses. If all breeders aimed to make a profit you would end with a very different market for horses.

Why are some horses so cheap it will be because they are a lot of them eg failed race horses or young coloured cobs and not many people willing to take them on.

Cortez said:
So you think that it is OK for breeders to lose money on their stock? The fact is that most breeders DO lose money (I gave up my stud farm for that very reason as I was not prepared to cut corners and was only interested in producing top quality), what bewilders me is why they would continue to breed if that is the case.
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rachk89 said:
If I was looking for just a hacking horse, like what I've described, I doubt I would pay more than £1500.

Like someone else put (cant remember who now), it depends on what the buyer is willing to pay isnt it? My price probably (well more than likely) not what you are looking for for her. But she would also suit someone who wants to do a bit of hunting, and maybe do some showing from the looks of her. Going on that basis, not being well versed in pricing, maybe £3500-£4000?

She is totally the type of horse I would love to have for hacking though. I like going on hacks in forests, but my horse is too wired to be calm the whole time. I love the big bulky cobs as well, my horse is so narrow in comparison.
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So £1500 buys a safe, sound and mannerly hack, if only it did. I go buying with a lot of people, they seem to respect my judgement and my eye for a sound good type, which is lovely.

The horse in the picture is not a show horse, as you can or should see, her limb is poor quality, she is common. Look beyond the turn out, imagine what she really looks like. She is not a hunter, she cannot safely jump more than a twig, although she is quite happy to crash through whatever gets in the way. She is way too slow to keep up, although she tries her best. She is typical of what hunt staff would ride for cubbing not hunting.

She is big and bulky but light as a feather on her feet and in her mouth, balanced uphill and oh so safe. When she came to me she was a rude, dangerous and opinionated S H one T but I liked her stamp and paid a lot more than 1.5k for her. Her type and stamp are rare to find, she cannot be compared to the coloured cob types that are so prevalent.

You and others are totally right, a horse is only worth what someone will pay. She will never come on the market, she fits my needs, I am old and injured. She looks after me, so I guess she has no value because she is priceless. Good job I love her, she could have gone down the road for 5.5 recently.

Here is another in the rough common cob, just a recently broken four year old. Hacks, very sensible for his age and background, done 4 intro's 2 wins and 2 third places. I paid £200 for him as a yearling. He has cost at least 4k so far and in another year with a novice on his cv and more mature (he is a big horse) he will fetch a decent price.

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Slightlyconfused said:
I woul pay £3000 plus for her strictly because of my brother needed that type of horse.

Saying that we have got a male version of her for £1500 direct from breeder so it's all swings and roundabouts on were in the country you are and I think what the breeder set up is.
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But you then made that 1.5 young horse into what you want remember. His value will be much more now.
 
It's a difficult one.

The simple fact is that not many of us have £5k plus to spend on a horse. No matter how much we might like to.

Nor does the average rider need something with too much quality/top end breeding about it, to be honest. I've done a fair bit of competing in my time, both unaff and low level BE and riding club areas, and the amount of people you see that are completely over-horsed (and not enjoying a minute of it) is unbelievable.

Riding is our hobby, it's supposed to be fun. A lot of warmblood types are bred to be competition horses and ridden by professionals, not being ridden twice a week and doing a bit of prelim dressage every once in a while (when the owner is feeling brave enough to consider being bucked off in the warm up).

I've had an unbelievable amount of fun with my welsh cob. Sure, he's never going to go round Badminton, but neither am I. He's got plenty enough talent and ability to fulfil any of my competitive ambitions and will turn a hoof to anything I fancy trying. But most of all he's safe and sensible, he loads easily, will stand on the box for hours if necessary, is polite to tack up/put studs in/wash off and is generally a pleasure to take out. He's the same to ride whether you last rode yesterday or a month ago, and doesn't bat an eyelid in busy rings at a county show.

Yes there's a lot of dross at the very bottom end at the market, but there's still a place for the good old "heinz 57" safe and sensible sort for the leisure rider who just wants to go out and have fun - and not many people are going to pay upwards of 5 grand for it!
 
I don't think anyone is saying that the horses shouldn't be worth more than what is being asked of them (or perhaps to word it better, that the horse market should be in a better place than it is) just that in the current situation, nothing is selling and you can get a good quality horse for little money. Why? Don't know.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Here is the horse that you describe above, an average cob.

100% in any traffic in front of the leg, nice mouth, 8 yr old. 15.2h, Cubbed and done 4 days this season, sound, will jump a log if she has to. Laterally supple which is a necessary to be safe on the road and extremely comfortable. Parks and coffee stops without question and you won't spill anything as she stands rock still.

What do you think she would fetch on the open market ?

Marthajune13002_zpsfc83f037.jpg
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I'm not a cob person (I know, yet this inconsistency is such...) but I think that's a smart horse. And a truly mannerly hunting cob - if as described - is worth a good price. They're rare - I know, partly because I was recently involved in a friend's search for one. I would expect this not to give much change from £5k, possibly significantly more, depending on conformation (which doesn't look perfect, but photos can be deceptive) and movement. I wouldn't pay that for her, because it's not what I do, but I'm damned if I don't know people who would, happily.

I'd also like to second the importance of lateral work and finer schooling in a good hack. A good hack isn't something you can switch off on, and bimble around without it decking you. A good hack is a horse that can score 90s on a TREC PTV or could have a good stab an those Xtreme mountain trail courses - it's an animal which is solid in difficult environments and remains absolutely attentive to the aids, laterally responsive, neck reins, ground ties and generally has the manners of a gentleman, even when the circumstances are far from perfect. I cannot abide the "hacks" some people term "safe" which are pig ignorant to any finer aid and about as laterally supple as the trunk of an average oak tree.
 
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AdorableAlice said:
So £1500 buys a safe, sound and mannerly hack, if only it did. I go buying with a lot of people, they seem to respect my judgement and my eye for a sound good type, which is lovely.

The horse in the picture is not a show horse, as you can or should see, her limb is poor quality, she is common. Look beyond the turn out, imagine what she really looks like. She is not a hunter, she cannot safely jump more than a twig, although she is quite happy to crash through whatever gets in the way. She is way too slow to keep up, although she tries her best. She is typical of what hunt staff would ride for cubbing not hunting.

She is big and bulky but light as a feather on her feet and in her mouth, balanced uphill and oh so safe. When she came to me she was a rude, dangerous and opinionated S H one T but I liked her stamp and paid a lot more than 1.5k for her. Her type and stamp are rare to find, she cannot be compared to the coloured cob types that are so prevalent.

You and others are totally right, a horse is only worth what someone will pay. She will never come on the market, she fits my needs, I am old and injured. She looks after me, so I guess she has no value because she is priceless. Good job I love her, she could have gone down the road for 5.5 recently.
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Eh there are loads of people who like showing a horse for fun, they might want to take a horse out like that just for a day out really. Is pointless yes but some dont care about winning. Not many though, granted.

Its the kind of horse I will probably end up with when I lose my one. Hopefully I will keep him until he is very old and retired. By then, I will be in my 50's and I really dont think I will care anymore by then about competing. I can maybe look for my stubborn, black mare then for hacking. Its what I was wanting now but for dressage haha. Will find my replacement for Hannah and Cally eventually.
 
I have an exceptionally well bred two year old pink papered & branded warmblood filly, beautifully put together and stunning paces - by a Grand Prix stallion and out of a dam line with some exceptionally well known horses, the dam-sire being very successful. I did not pay an arm and a leg for a young horse and wouldn't. Carl Hester rarely pays more than 2.5K for a youngster.
 
lauraandjack said:
It's a difficult one.

The simple fact is that not many of us have £5k plus to spend on a horse. No matter how much we might like to.

Nor does the average rider need something with too much quality/top end breeding about it, to be honest. I've done a fair bit of competing in my time, both unaff and low level BE and riding club areas, and the amount of people you see that are completely over-horsed (and not enjoying a minute of it) is unbelievable.

Riding is our hobby, it's supposed to be fun. A lot of warmblood types are bred to be competition horses and ridden by professionals, not being ridden twice a week and doing a bit of prelim dressage every once in a while (when the owner is feeling brave enough to consider being bucked off in the warm up).

I've had an unbelievable amount of fun with my welsh cob. Sure, he's never going to go round Badminton, but neither am I. He's got plenty enough talent and ability to fulfil any of my competitive ambitions and will turn a hoof to anything I fancy trying. But most of all he's safe and sensible, he loads easily, will stand on the box for hours if necessary, is polite to tack up/put studs in/wash off and is generally a pleasure to take out. He's the same to ride whether you last rode yesterday or a month ago, and doesn't bat an eyelid in busy rings at a county show.

Yes there's a lot of dross at the very bottom end at the market, but there's still a place for the good old "heinz 57" safe and sensible sort for the leisure rider who just wants to go out and have fun - and not many people are going to pay upwards of 5 grand for it!
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And this is exactly the type of horse that is rare as rocking horse poo here too, but they cost to produce. I know - I have a four year old who is a WiP, but in 12 months time will be exactly that (and what I wanted!), but she will have cost me more than most are willing to pay.
 
My parents bought me a patent safety Heinz 57 15.3hh 8 yr old for £1800 in the 80s. They sold him 3 yrs later with a very good PC competition record for £4000.

30 yrs later, he probably wouldn't be worth much more!
 
Auslander said:
I was being seedy!

To multiquote - click the litle black thingie next to "reply with quote" on both the posts that you want to quote, then hit "reply with quote on one of them
Do one now so that I can be sure you've got it!!
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rachk89 said:
Pfft he cant, you call that a horse? :p *hides from beating*

In all honesty now, yours at times looks the way I expect, then he throws in a jump where it looks like he is gonna stick his head between his knees and I'm going 'Ah! head up, dont fall!'.

There is a horse at the yard I am at that does jumping the way I am on about, its like he never looks at the jump. Yet he always knows what height it is and I've never seen him knock a fence yet. Jumping is his only skill though, he isnt so good at flat work and he doesnt like working properly and going round through his back. He just somehow manages to do well over 1m no problem. I think they were getting to 1.20 before he was silly and bruised his knee in the field. Its the same with a mare there, she does the same thing and she's done 1.20m before easily. She just flies over fences, only seen her knock one before and that shocked me.
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Run away! Run very fast!!
LC was 3 and he doesn't look at them like that any more. He's also hugely scopey and (this is not good) utterly fearless. His mother was the same and that's how I broke my collarbone; both of us going arse over tit because she would throw herself at a jump even if the stride was wrong (I have a video of that as well)
Lots of horses with less than perfect technique do OK up to 1.20m. A few freaks of nature do well much higher, but this is rare and a good bascule is very very coveted.
LC himself doesn't like flatwork, but we do it anyway. A lot. Jumping is 90% flatwork anyway; you need balance, rhythm and control, and if you think you don't... it won't end well.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Here is another in the rough common cob, just a recently broken four year old. Hacks, very sensible for his age and background, done 4 intro's 2 wins and 2 third places. I paid £200 for him as a yearling..
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Poor Ted being called common. :D I bet he doesn't think he's common. I need to catch up on the adventures of Ted!
 
This thread made really interesting reading. I guess I have similar aspirations to the poster who put up those three videos. I'm a keen amateur, love hacking (!) and have aspirations of low level BE/BD. I've just paid 4.5k for an unproven but backed 4y/o with nice British breeding; sound, good movement for his type, decent jump, sane brain and trainable attitude. I don't think I've overpaid at all but guessing a lot of previous posters might disagree!

This youngster is to eventually replace my current older horse who needs to slow down now. I paid 3.5k for him 3years ago. He is the consummate riding club type, won't set the world alight and will never grace a showring but has some foundation points be, hunting experience, will do a nice unaffiliated test and is a true Saint to hack - mannerly, forward going, just so much fun. I didn't appreciate at the time what a bargain he was. I would expect to pay at least double to replace him with a younger version. As it is, I think I paid a fair price for a blank canvas that will (hopefully!) eventually do all this.
 
Really interesting thread. A bit of one upmanship going on about who bought the nicest horse for the least money, but hey, everyone loves a bargain!
My feeling is that there is a lot of excellent breeding of top quality animals in this country, and there is a lot of breeding of bin-end animals at the other end of the spectrum. I think that what is needed is a more structured approach to middle of the range breeding - carefully considered breeding of nice all rounders, who aren't going to set the world on fire, but who are capable of doing the job that is required by most mortals, and doing it safely and sensibly.

I think I win on the "who bought the nicest horse for the least money" competition anyway...
 
Yes, everyone does love a bargain ;-) I guess my point is that my market is middle of the road, all rounder types and I think c.5k fair. Perhaps I'm just a mug though!!
 
I just want to defend the horse that is supposedly on the forehand and a weird jumper, don't really care about whether people bought a unicorn for £100! :) I don't usually get cheap horses and all have been lovely people, so not bothered that I paid more than 4 magic beans for them :)

That horse in the video was going beautifully and was clearly well schooled and beautifully balanced despite having no contact at all. I'd happily pay between 3-5k for it, and I don't think the sellers are outrageous in asking for that - it looks a nice calm person and would easily get round BE90/100!
 
Auslander said:
Really interesting thread. A bit of one upmanship going on about who bought the nicest horse for the least money, but hey, everyone loves a bargain!
My feeling is that there is a lot of excellent breeding of top quality animals in this country, and there is a lot of breeding of bin-end animals at the other end of the spectrum. I think that what is needed is a more structured approach to middle of the range breeding - carefully considered breeding of nice all rounders, who aren't going to set the world on fire, but who are capable of doing the job that is required by most mortals, and doing it safely and sensibly.

I think I win on the "who bought the nicest horse for the least money" competition anyway...
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It is actually very, very hard to buy an ordinary, well schooled horse that will hack by itself or in company and has no stable manners issues. Time and time again we hear of people saying "I don't want a Badminton horse, all I want is a riding club all rounder." Whether it is that people don't want to pay enough for that sort of horse, or whether the "ordinary" horse doesn't get the care and attention I do not know.

A lot of the old "nagsmen" would turn out horses like this, probably most of them would go on to be local hunters. I had a mare once who was a grumpy horse but I always said that who ever had broken her in to ride had done a 100% job and it meant that despite her drawbacks, she would always find a home. I also followed the long career of a local horse that through no fault of its own, changed hands several times, but once again, as he had been correctly and carefully broken in and schooled, in his 20s he found a wonderful last home taking a lady hunting.

It is down to over breeding, incorrect breaking and schooling (too many people just wanting rid of). Hard to know what the solution is.
 
Having read the entire thread, far from being a thread which is snobby and looks down on unknown breeding/low price, I think it comes across as the opposite.

I do play great store on breeding. I have been around long enough to know that traits are passed along, which lines to avoid as they produce talented but quirky etc. There was a comment earlier about Sam Barr and the Welton horses and 5k was the minimum he needed to break even, but he would also be factoring that he would put down horses that didn't make the mark. What no one has pointed out here is that not every foal is healthy (a lot are hell bent on damaging themselves) and there is many a slip between foal and a produced 4 year old.

I paid a lot more than is being mooted on this page but was realistic. I wanted the holy grail to event, so 16.2 plus, 6-8 year old gelding with the beginnings of a BE record and properly proven in all disciplines. He had to be straightforward, well made and an amateur ride. Turned out to be an excellent hack as well but that was a happy accident. He is worth every bit of money I paid for him as I have a horse I genuinely love riding and caring for and he puts a smile on my face each day when I see him.
 
I believe there is a big gap out there, I am not breeding at the moment although I have a stallion 15.2 hh, if I was I would be breeding from him horses around 15 to 16.2 hh absolute max, they would have top bloodlines and the right attitude to work, with the ability to relax and offer work and not too big, and essentially bold and willing to face the world, performance record would not concern me if the background breeding is right, and soundness is everything, oh and stunningly beautiful because I want it all in one horse, and this is the horse that can do it all, compete or equally be someone`s treasure and best friend.
 
tristar said:
I believe there is a big gap out there, I am not breeding at the moment although I have a stallion 15.2 hh, if I was I would be breeding from him horses around 15 to 16.2 hh absolute max, they would have top bloodlines and the right attitude to work, with the ability to relax and offer work and not too big, and essentially bold and willing to face the world, performance record would not concern me if the background breeding is right, and soundness is everything, oh and stunningly beautiful because I want it all in one horse, and this is the horse that can do it all, compete or equally be someone`s treasure and best friend.
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Lend him to my mares please? :p
 
Orangehorse said:
It is actually very, very hard to buy an ordinary, well schooled horse that will hack by itself or in company and has no stable manners issues. Time and time again we hear of people saying "I don't want a Badminton horse, all I want is a riding club all rounder." Whether it is that people don't want to pay enough for that sort of horse, or whether the "ordinary" horse doesn't get the care and attention I do not know
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I tried to produce 15.2-16hh allrounders for a time. Hardest thing I've ever done. Bought them as 4/5 yr olds, took them to local shows, hunter trials, unaff ODEs, hunting - whatever it took to make them nice. Put them on the market - the fussiest, pickiest, most difficult buyers I've ever had to please. I'd never do it again.

I know there is a market for the lovely, easy, riding club allrounder type, and there are loads of potential buyers out there, but I found it a very difficult market.

ETA the increase in popularity of fun rides has put added pressure on these lovely "ordinary" horses - I think it's one of the hardest questions to ask of a horse, to behave well on a fun ride. There are very few that will walk calmly, with ponies/teenagers galloping past, horses disappearing from sight in front of them, random jumping - it's a big ask! Some of our hunters would be very horrid if we took them on one!
 
spacefaer said:
I tried to produce 15.2-16hh allrounders for a time. Hardest thing I've ever done. Bought them as 4/5 yr olds, took them to local shows, hunter trials, unaff ODEs, hunting - whatever it took to make them nice. Put them on the market - the fussiest, pickiest, most difficult buyers I've ever had to please. I'd never do it again.

I know there is a market for the lovely, easy, riding club allrounder type, and there are loads of potential buyers out there, but I found it a very difficult market.

ETA the increase in popularity of fun rides has put added pressure on these lovely "ordinary" horses - I think it's one of the hardest questions to ask of a horse, to behave well on a fun ride. There are very few that will walk calmly, with ponies/teenagers galloping past, horses disappearing from sight in front of them, random jumping - it's a big ask! Some of our hunters would be very horrid if we took them on one!
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Made even more difficult when people think 1.5 k will buy one.
 
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