Why are some people so snobby about breeding

M

magic104

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 April 2006
Messages
6,156
www.jc-countryside.co.uk
I support 100% the tightening up of breeding & I dont believe in breeding from just any old mare, but. Why should owners be penilised because we live in a country who up until now could not give a monkeys, (we have passports, how long has that taken!) I have since the early 80's agreed that all equines being bred should be recorded & mine therefore went onto the ID reg with the old HIS programme, as well as their breed society. Yet any papers a horse had did not have to be passed on. I have also known of breeders who never even got round to registering their foals. And this is where the issue is in this country, we have 1000's of good mares both in competition, conformation etc who do not have pprs. Because there are so many reg mares, some of us choosing to breed from our un-reg mares get looked down on by some, being told that why breed from ours when you can use a pprd mare. The thing is as much as I would love to breed a grade A showjumper, advanced eventer, PSG dressage horse, who is going to ride it? I bred for myself or people like me, because that is where the bigger market is. On the other hand who is not to say that a horse could well have achieved greater things if it had been produced say by Pippa Funnell, or a Whitaker. I agree bloodlines are important, of course they are, but just because some of us want to gamble with our mares of unknown breeding does not make us bottom of the breeding chain.

My mare (and not the 1st) with no pprs bred a foal last year
Mo20Apr08.jpg

horsesandme078.jpg


My daughter is not yet 16 & has been riding her for over 3yrs now. I think that says a lot about the mares temperment. So who else is proud of their un-reg mare & her offspring?
 
Just because a mare is registered does not necessarily mean that it is a well put together animal in my view, so I wouldn't have too many problems with breeding from a mare with no papers. My single proviso would be though that I would have to know the breeding of that mare and have a good idea of the size and type of horses in her family history. Without that you don't know if your mare is true to it's breeding, or a lucky freak of nature - and that makes breeding a subsequent foal a bit of a shot in the dark.

Your mare is very nice BTW
 
I am totally and utterly besotted with Tills and VERY excited about what she will produce.
She might not have papers - but she has everything else - temperament, conformation, soundness, success, looks - if her foal turns out to be even half the horse the she is then I will be over the moon.

I completely back your viewpoint on this, and am somewhat not looking forward to posting the pics of the Diddly when he/she arrives as I know as soon as I say she has no parentage she will be dismissed by many on here. Perhaps I won't post pics at all, we'll see
frown.gif
 
Dont be silly, of course you have to post pictures, i for one cant wait to see them!! I cant believe you only have 4days - shes going to beat Bloss to it at this rate
mad.gif
 
You have pointed out two issues, the first one is breeding horses that have no papers.

I would consider myself a conciencious breeder, which might to some people appear snobby
smirk.gif
. I select my mare to the best of my ability. After all I want to breed an International showjumper or dressage horse, that is my aim and always has been. Breeding is a game of lottery, so what breeders try to do is reduce the odds that are stacked up against them. The first way to do this is by using proven lines (pedigrees), secondly they have a look at performance and confirmation, and finally they hold their hands up to god and pray, or at least I do
wink.gif
!!!!!!!!!!!

Having said that, my most successful youngster to date is out of a mare with no known dam line (granted he is the oldest of my babies, the rest will follow
grin.gif
). The mare was produced by my daughter as a very talented showjumper in her own right, so I took the decision to use her as a broodmare (thank god I did), some people would not have agreed. He is now a rising 5 year old, jumped in the British young Horse Championships at 4 and finished in the top 10. You can see him pictured below, which was taken at the beginning of this year aged 4 1/2. Before anyone starts saying 'that is a big fence for a baby' (which it is), it was the third round of the Winter Novice Qualifier for Hickstead. To get there you have to jump the courses.

WillWNcoombe2.jpg


The other thing to consider when breeding, is the market value of your stock, buyer want to see paperwork. It cost the same amount to breed a horse with no paperwork as it does to breed one in the purple (as they say), as they all have to have passports regardless of whether they are breed ones or just ID. But the comeback on the price tag is a huge difference.

Your second issue is related to nature v nurture. I often wonder how many potential GP showjumping or dressage horses are being hacked around the country lanes, or grazing contently in a grassy field (or worst, up to their necks in mud starving). You can never guarantee that a horse will end up in the right hands to take it 'to the top' fate has a hand in that. A breeder can only do their best to try and get the formular right in the first instance, if their stock is for sale, the future of that horse is taken out of their hands.

As they say, the reins are then passed over.
confused.gif
 
I don't so much see it as snobbery (don't know if you are referring to a particular post) but more as a dislike towards indiscriminate breeding.

If you are breeding for yourself then I don't see it as an issue however if you are breeding to sell then I think it makes more sense to use either proven parents and/or those with papers. I am strongly against those who breed because they have nothing else to do with their mare who is having time off for whatever reason and see it as a good idea to put her in foal.

We all know that nothing is guaranteed with breeding but the market is flooded with mediocre horses that in reality no-one wants. IMO, that is not being snobby, that is being realistic.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I don't so much see it as snobbery (don't know if you are referring to a particular post) but more as a dislike towards indiscriminate breeding

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I would agree with this.

Although not everyone wants to breed a world beater. A lot of us have just wanted to breed something that will be a nice allround little horse to continue having fun on.

It was certainly my aim when putting Amy May in foal. It was being bred for me - not to sell on.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just because a mare is registered does not necessarily mean that it is a well put together animal in my view, so I wouldn't have too many problems with breeding from a mare with no papers. My single proviso would be though that I would have to know the breeding of that mare and have a good idea of the size and type of horses in her family history. Without that you don't know if your mare is true to it's breeding, or a lucky freak of nature - and that makes breeding a subsequent foal a bit of a shot in the dark.

Your mare is very nice BTW

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, though - to be devil's advocate, just because the mareline has a 'type' doesn't mean that she will throw a foal that is also that type (though it shortens the odds). Very well bred mares can throw terrible foals and mares whose breeding is unknown can throw some stunners!
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Not everyone wants to breed a world beater. A lot of us have just wanted to breed something that will be a nice allround little horse to continue having fun on.

It was certainly my aim when putting Amy May in foal. It was being bred for me - not to sell on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never put Ellie in foal, purely because of the risk of losing her - but if her safety and that of the foal could be 100% guaranteed (in an ideal world
tongue.gif
) I would have no reservations about breeding from her. She's nicely put together, has far more scope than I have ever had the guts to utilise, and she does have papers, but we know nothing of her dam's line - dam is listed merely as 'Lola' (and we assume from the double-Dutch on her papers that the dam was an Arab). Her sire's line is good, however; her grandfather is Alme, although her father was one of his less proflific offspring.

It wouldnt be her breeding that would make me want to have a foal from her - it would be the fact that she is one in a million, and if I could get another with even the slightest hint of her talent and personality, I would be happy. As Amy May says, many people would breed simply to get the foal that THEY want, not to sell on because of it's wonderful lineage.
 
This is something I have come across alot. My foal who is now a week old, is from a good mare, proven to be very good allround, with a phenominal jump for a pony her size. She has no papers. I took a chance breeding from her I know I did, but she has produced a very nice foal. I also chose the stallion very carefully and saw his offspring beforehand.

Both parents are SPSS registered and graded, which I think helps in some way.

I bred her to be a good all round pony, hopefully with a more trainable attitude than Mum on the flat, and so far it seems promising. A good PC pony does not need to be bred in the purple. Saying that, even a good top class SJ-er or eventer does not need to be well bred, just talented.
 
i have bred a foal for the first time this year. when my mare had a panic attack on the lorry and would no longer travel happily i took 18 months to make the decision to put her into foal. the mare was only 11yo and we had only owned her 6 weeks(was to be my daughters first horse coming from ponies to do YR on so was devasted) all i kept hearing was "whats her breeding" YES!! she does have good breeding but i would of still put her into foal had she not because her temperament and manners are to die for. she is the safest ride you could wish for. i now have a mini -mum foal for keeps and my mare has a home for life. I might put her into foal again but would not be able to afford to keep any more foals as i am in livery. i chose a stallion that complimented her in my eyes.
 
I have always disliked this - but have never bred anything myself I should point out, maybe am in the wrong part of the forum
grin.gif


Used to annoy me when people would ask me what my irish horses breeding was (typically snobby pc types) I took much enjoyment frm telling them he was out of Ireland by Boat!
grin.gif
you could see that some of them were actually trying to think if they knew the horses!!!
 
I'm not snobby about papers but I am about grading - although even those have some dubious results at times.

We all think our particular horses are wonderful and I view a grading as a way of getting a totally independent assessment of my mare/stallions good and bad points. If one of mine won't grade then I won't breed from it.

Equally I won't use a stallion that isn't graded and licensed

To me that isn't 'snobby' it's just common sense to try and use stock that are free from serious defects for breeding.

We get too attached to the progeny and want to have them live long and healthy lives so a good physical start with graded parents has to be a reasonable way of trying to provide for the offspring's future well-being.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If one of mine won't grade then I won't breed from it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Now that is intersting....

Surely you consider yourself a good judge of a mare's confirmation and ability though???

Don't hold much sway with gradings I'm afraid. Although appreciate their value to others...
 
in the context of papers or no papers for breeding stock:

no papers + graded is probably OK as gradings do take account of performance record as one of the factors alongside temprament

no papers + failed a grading (or gradings in some cases) then no - I wouldn't breed as what future life would I be able to provide for the progeny from an unlicensed stallion onto a mare with no papers and 'faults' - something that ends up with Jamie Gray ?

don't consider that snobbery and for geldings especially papers are not as important except for the geldings performance promoting (or not!) the merits of a partiular stallion or mare.
 
I am on both sides of this fence. Last year I bred two of my mares to my stallion. He is registered and licenced as a breeding stallion. He has very rare bloodlines and a temperament to die for.

One of my mare's has amazing bloodlines within her breed society. She is registered and is an excellent example of her breed. She has a lovely nature and is very correct.

The other mare, is our little pony we imported when we emigrated. She is very special little pony and we've had her for almost 11 years. She has no papers and is a Connemara X. She is/has been a wonderful childs pony, she is great at games and is a lovely little jumper. I bred her also to my boy.

The registered mare gave birth to a very impressive filly. This filly has everything! She was bred for the selling market and I don't think we will have any problem whatsoever finding a great home for her when the time is right. We'll also make a tidy profit.

The crossbreed mare gave birth a fabulous pony foal. She is an amazing little girl and I am very happy with how she turned out. Although we bred this foal to keep, I know fine well that she would be a sought after pony if we were ever to put her on the open market.

Everyone is different, for me, breeding a horse for the resale market, well I wouldn't consider breeding something of unknown stock. Breeding for myself or my family, I have no problem with breeding from something which has proved itself over and over again.

I do actually get what you are saying though Magic. If you look at the majority of riding horses, X-breeds are by far the norm and they are the ones who generally take a large percentage of the RC and PC market. They are probably the easiest ones to sell in a way, because people who know their bloodlines often become "tunnel visioned" - I know I do. I found my Quarter Horse bloodlines and I stick to them because I know the chances of these horses turning out exactly as I want them to, will prevail, in most cases. There is less of a risk when you breed from/to horses with proven bloodlines and you will, more than frequently, end up with something true to type. To breed from something unknown gives you no stability.

Anyway I think breeding is a very personal thing and incorporates a lot of factors. I'm not sure if it is snobbishness, it may just be that these people have, perceived, higher standards than others?
 
Horses for courses. Not everyone wants or has the ability to ride an international dressage horse or showjumper...we all have to learn and start somewhere.
Temperament has to be the utmost importance along with conformation...and then handling the foal.even more important.too many well bred foals...paperwork or not.end up being useless as 3 year olds cos of bad/inappropriate handling.
A gypsy told me once.."Fools breed horses for wise men to buy"
What I would look for in a horse probably isn't the same as the next person.
I do agree here with the poster who said about not breeding from a mare simply cos there is no other job for her.far too many people end up doing this, they haven't got a clue and the best stallion is the cheapest and or nearest to them..and the absolute no no here.breeding from a sick/lame mare......I would not breed from a lame mare ever....
 
genie, you say you would not breed from a lame mare ever. What if that lame mare had a good competition record in her chosen discipline, then had an accident in the field (lets say she got kicked) which stopped her competitive career. Would that be considered as a lame horse or not.

Retired due to lameness.
 
I dont see snobbery on here. I see breeders who are seriously trying to make a living from breeding the bets possible sporthorses they can, I see breeders of Thoroughbreds trying to find that exclusive nick that will bring success on the race track, and I see 1 mare owners who want to replace their favourite mare, who are looking for advice on a stallion to suit their needs or advice on caring for that mare and foal once the deed is done.

I dont care if someone on this forum wants to breed from a mare without papers. There are some very nice mares out there who were never registered for whatever reason. But I do care and get annoyed (privately) if someone wants to breed from a mare with bad conformation and a bad attitude just because they dont know what else to do with her. Doesn't matter if the mare has papers or not, if she's not a good condidate to breed from, don't breed from her. I dont think that is snobbery just common sense
 
If the stallion is not licensed by a breed society and has not been tested under saddle its like buying a car thats never been driven. Mares need to be Graded by properly trained judges for young horse evaluations and we have precious few in this country. If a horse has no breeding paers it will end up in the lower price bracket and it its 25 yr life will end up being illtreated by someone.Do you know many people who pay a lot of money for a dog and then do not look after it I suggest few. Breed from properly tested stallions and graded mares they cost just as much to keep
 
Magic first can I just say that from the photos your mare looks like a VERY nice sort - attractive, strong, well-made, and seems to have lots of quality and presence. A mare anyone would be proud to own. I am so sorry that you have felt snubbed or looked down upon because of her unknown breeding or lack of papers.

I think there are 2 separate issues here, that often get muddled. First the issue of breeding/papers. I really don't think it is about snobbery. All breeding is a gamble, of course, but breeding from a mare of unknown pedigree is a bigger risk, as without knowledge of her genetic makeup, you have no idea of what qualities she is likely to pass on to her foals.

With a very good mare, however, who has excellent conformation, quality, proven competition ability, temperament, etc., it may well be worth taking that extra risk. But it isn't being snobbish to point out that there is a greater risk - and I think that's all people are saying when they express reservations about breeding from such a mare.

The other issue you raise is about whether one is aiming to breed a high-class competition horse or an 'ordinary' riding horse - a nice RC all-rounder, say. I think all people are saying here is that one should always aim as high as possible when breeding. After all, even breeders striving to breed top competition horses will inevitably produce many that don't quite make the grade - and that end up having perfectly happy and useful lives as excellent, sound, good-quality riding horses - PC/RC all-rounders, etc.

I'm sure you actually agree with the idea of aiming as high as possible - that you would want to send your mare to the very best stallion you could afford, to breed a high-quality foal with excellent conformation, ability, etc.? Whether that foal goes on to be a GP showjumper/dressage horse or just a super-nice riding horse is up to you (or its future owners if you sell) but surely you still want to breed as 'perfect' a foal as you possibly can?

I think that 'ordinary' riders, with no ambitions to win Badminton or whatever, still deserve the best possible horses, with the best possible conformation, movement, ability, etc.
smile.gif
I really don't think that's being snobby - I hope not, anyway!
smile.gif
 
I'm with you on this one. I do think we all have a responsibility to breed only from mares that have good confirmation and a good temperament. I think we all have to be accountable for what we produce and brutally honest in our assessment of our mares (as difficult at times as this may be).
 
I basically agree with you magic - it is not something I have witnessed *as much* over here but it seems to be a very big thing in the states - I have known a lot of people state that a horse with no papers is worthless, regardless of how good it is at its job.

Obviously having registered bloodlines will increase the value of a horse, particularly if its bred for the competition market, but I don't understand why somebody shouldn't breed to a horse with unknown bloodlines. If the horse is a talented individual with good conformation and good temperament, then why not breed? Yes, there is a gamble, and someone breeding to sell for good money is probably best to avoid unpapered horses, but with any horse there is a gamble it won't turn out well.
 
I should add that all the stallions I have used have been graded & the foals reg with the relevant society. I am well aware of the gamble, but I think this mare has produced as good an offspring as the one ex of a reg TB mare. The only time she has ever been off work was when she had a splint bone removed. She moves well, her conformation is not too bad & she has an excellant temperment. I have tried hard to find out where she came from, but have now given up. I would like to keep her son & he wont be sold before he is under saddle, only then if he does not make the grade. His sire is ex of a good mare by an international SJ'g stallion. His siblings have had sucess & he is now back in Ireland trying eventing. The mare contributes so much, but I just feel that the biggest market is for a good allrounder that can be ridden by most people. So though he may not fetch the high prices of a better bred individual if has a good attitude to his work & people that is worth more to us.
 
I think thats a key point there - 'good all rounder that can be ridden by most people'
I know as a breeder that I cant afford to have very tricky or sharp temperaments in my breeding herd as I am not in the position to be selling to pros and most of my foals will go and have varied jobs - some have gone to dressage homes, some to showing homes and some will probably never compete. Hopefully they will all be athletic and scopey so will cope easily with the demands of their new life.
I think that is what htobago was saying - strive to breed the best you can and that foal will have a lot to offer future owners - whether its dam had papers or not.
 
I am hoping to put my mare in foal next year. She is a cobby type of unknown breeding. I asked my instructors opinion first as she breeds sports horses, and the first thing she asked me was what I intend to do with the foal. (I am breeding purely for myself). She said in that case, yes, go for it. Dolly is sound and has a fantastic temperament. She isn't perfect comformation wise, but put her to the right stallion that will complement her, and she thinks we will get a lovely foal. She actually has a stallion in mind for me that she has used in the past. I am excited, but have to admit, although I am coming into this part of the forum, I haven't really said much about it for fear of being looked down upon for wanting to breed from her.
 
I agree with KenRehill, it is a free world.

What we have here, are 2 different opinions due to the fact the some of the breeders are commercial and some of the breeders are doing so for their own pleasure.

I think at the end of the day, if you are breeding for yourself, as long as you have taken into consideration confirmation and temperament, which after all we all want, then do what you want.

If you are breeding for a commercial market then papers will assist in possibly making your financial investment viable, but they are not a guarantee.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I dont care if someone on this forum wants to breed from a mare without papers. There are some very nice mares out there who were never registered for whatever reason. But I do care and get annoyed (privately) if someone wants to breed from a mare with bad conformation and a bad attitude just because they dont know what else to do with her. Doesn't matter if the mare has papers or not, if she's not a good condidate to breed from, don't breed from her. I dont think that is snobbery just common sense


[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree with this. Also the "my mare is lame so i will breed from her" fraternity p me off too.
mad.gif
There are breeded out there that make a living of doing it, so they will know alot more about breeding a nice horse, whether it be a allrounder or competition horse than the likes of myself or any other hobby rider ever would.

Also, playing devils advocate, what about those 100's of people that breed a horse "for them" that then doesnt turn out to be the perfect horse they invisage, and then more crap ends up on the market unnecessarily?!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top