Why are there no good livery yards?

RHM

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I think it depends on your local area too, I used to live near Glossop and there was about 10 yards that I would be more than happy keeping my horses at. The story is a very different one since I’ve moved to West Yorkshire. I am not sure if it’s due to land prices but finding regular turnout is a nightmare!
 

Cortez

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I'm sure there are good livery yards, but professionally staffed, well managed establishments are extremely expensive and probably out of the range of the average horse owner. FWIW I wouldn't consider someone having one or two people share their stables and land as running a business, even if they have to pay rates or whatever as a consequence.
 

ForeverBroke_

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I absolutely adore my yard. I'm very fussy about my horses care - I like them to have proper big beds, CLEAN (no wet no poo!) and enormous haynets (and I mean enormous) and plenty of fresh water, and my yard has done this from the get go without me ever having to request it or quibble anything.

When I first got there I turned my horse out in boots when he first joined the rest of the horses, and the YM had a better fitting pair that she found and on day 2 she lent them to me to use out of her own box and I just think goes above and beyond to treat them like her own. The poo picking is done daily and their worm counts are always 0 and the routine is super strict. They aren't just lobbed in their stables of an evening, fed, doors shut etc etc. She will take their fly masks home to wash if they get grubby and dusty, the bowls are scrubbed so they always look brand new - theres honestly not a detail of their care that gets overlooked.

I honestly don't know where I would go if it wasn't for it! I have found other yards to be cliquey, where your horses care isn't paramount and if you do question anything you get the cold shoulder /atmosphere, when 9/10 times it was basic things like 'my horse has only got an inch of water, could he have a top up before you go?' or 'If he gets brought in early at 1pm because of bad weather, can he have an extra net?'

It's just absurd. Where I am do all of the above without me ever having to mention it and are just genuine, friendly caring people who I can approach about anything at any time.
 
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bluehorse

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Livery yards, in my experience, seem to be where customer service goes to die. I have been on two yards in my area, one DIY, the other part-livery. Both have ok-ish facilities: decent size stables, adequate turn out, indoor and outdoor schools, access to hacking etc. Both have been monumentally frustrating for me at times because of the YO and YM’s refusal to engage with me on simple matters or show any flexibility. Most of the time, when anything is raised by liveries, they either got defensive or just walked away. I get that not every request is able to be accommodated, but an adult conversation about why what I am asking for is not possible would go a long way to maintaining the goodwill of liveries and reducing the mutterings in the feed room.

Staff also need better performance management, in my experience. I would see the same staff make the same mistakes over and over, with no consequences. I don’t think people should get into trouble, but if a mistake keeps being made, in my workplace we look at process, training etc to try to figure out why. The yards just said ‘sorry’ and did it again. Likewise, I have seen very good staff leave because they weren’t recognised for their good work and were even seen as a threat!

Good leadership costs nothing, but people are far more likely to overlook aspects that aren’t perfect, if they feel that they are valued as clients and their horse/s‘ (let’s face it, probably our biggest monthly outgoing after mortgage or rent payments) welfare is being put first.

I also think we have responsibilities as liveries to be polite and respectful, to recognise that staff are often on minimum wage and working in difficult conditions with sometimes quite dangerous animals. Even if we are frustrated, moderating behaviour and language goes a long way to (I have heard grown women screaming like toddlers at staff and it is very unedifying).

This I do agree with completely, and I think actually hits the nail on the head in response to the OPs original question. It has nothing whatsoever to do with good yards being more expensive and not offering DIY. Or livery owners causing hassle, or having horses on the yard that are ‘twats’ (I thought they all were at times!?). Attitudes like that speak volumes. It has everything to do with good, safe yard management, good people management skills and good customer service. Cost, services offered and facilities are secondary in my view and will vary between yards and horse owners requirements. If as a livery you manage to find a yard which matches your needs, and is well run by a manager with the right knowledge and skills, never leave!!
 

Dyllymoo

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I've found that in my area its more the lack of facilities/ grazing that are a bug bear for me. Where we are currently has less than 3 acres grazing for 6 horses. Its been ok up until this year and the fields have not coped at all well.

Admittedly I am DIY so I am looking for a needle in a haystack around here, but I would happily pay a bit extra than the going DIY rate to have more field space and better hacking. Ideally a school (especially for winter) but I tend to think its more about the lack of land our way.
 

Flicker

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It would actually be very interesting to do a study on YM and YOs in relation to what percentage of their time is spent actually looking after horses v dealing with people. People who are fantastic horse people don’t necessarily make a success of running a yard because they aren’t necessarily good people people.

I would also be interested to see the results of a survey of people’s main livery yard gripes and, of those, which ones actually require spending money to put right. I used to be a secretary in an NHS trust and my boss dealt with all the patient complaints arising from a particular hospital. Only a very few of those formal complaints concerned the clinical aspects of care: diagnosis, timely treatment, correct treatment etc. The overwhelming majority were about communication, lack of kindness, not treating people with dignity and respect, not involving patients in their care plans, that sort of thing. Not one of those costs a Trust money to implement, but by god did they cost us a lot of resource to put right when they weren’t there. Same with livery yards - basic communication, care, kindness and good management are free but if they are not there even the most incredible facilities would struggle to mitigate their absence.
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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I no longer have permanent liveries, haven't done so for 16 odd years, and gave up the additional 7+ acres adjacent to my own land.
I do temporary livery if the need arises, to nice people. No idea these days if I'm a well thought of yo or not ?
I do know that its financially better for me to add an extra day in the office (when not furloughed) than to take in 2 or even 3 liveries.

As chaps89 mentions earlier up thread, decent yards or fields for sole use are as rare as hens teeth. There are still a good number of differing sized yards in my area but most have something missing for the all rounder, lack of direct hacking, no or useless arena, daft rules (daft even in my book!) etc etc
 

Maesto's Girl

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I both keep my horse and work at the yard I am on and honestly it is perfect for me. Decent turnout paddocks and my mare has a corale attached to her stable so she can be out all the time. It's part-livery or full livery at request. When on full livery, my stable is always immaculately mucked out. Theres a 20 x 40 rubber & sand school and access to hours of hacking. I also work there so know the level of care the horses receive from all the people there. Yes of course mistakes do get made...we are all human...but they are rare and only happen once after being bought up. It is pricey though. My livery bill would be about £500 a month including hay, parking for my horsebox and incidentals. But happy to pay it as I know my Y/O makes nothing from it.

Yards are definitely out there....you just have to search hard and keep an ear to the ground in your local area
 

abb123

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I think that all YOs should have to do a qualification. Modules should include:

1. Effective communication with your clients.
2. Managing your business accounts and paying tax.
3. How to manage rent increases.
4. Managing your business property so that it is separate from your home.
5. Profit expectation management.
6. Effective rule introduction and implementation.

.... :p
 

Frumpoon

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I think that all YOs should have to do a qualification. Modules should include:

1. Effective communication with your clients.
2. Managing your business accounts and paying tax.
3. How to manage rent increases.
4. Managing your business property so that it is separate from your home.
5. Profit expectation management.
6. Effective rule introduction and implementation.

.... :p
7. Telling the truth
8. Why daily turnout is essential for horses
9. Not exploiting staff
10. Being present, visible and accountable
11. Not beating up clients...
 

Sugar Plum

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"...this time with a yard owner who has good knowledge but some extremely dated ideas, and who only sees things her own way. She has made management changes without consulting me which would have been very detrimental to his health if I hadn’t realised, then tried to deny it. She is very difficult to deal with when trying to discuss any concerns and has pretty much criticised everything I’ve done from the minute I got there. She clearly thinks I’m an idiot and never misses an opportunity to have a dig at me and my horse."

Did we have the same yard owner?? We didn't, because mine was a man. But the same person in spirit.

I wish there was more individual turnout paddocks in Scotland. Unfortunately, my horse needs it and it's slim pickins' here. Hence tolerating shight for so long.
I get quite tired of yard owners thinking they can sprout forth with ‘advice’ read why are you using this or doing that? We all benefit from advice from people we respect, but when YO queries how or what you are doing when you know your horse best, it gets on my nerves. On the lookout for a new yard and there are some really scary ones out there. Basic cleanliness is a must and it is amazing how many don’t even meet this. Add to this insufficient grazing and what there is being poorly managed, it makes it really difficult to leave your horse in most livery yards around
 

Flicker

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7. Telling the truth
8. Why daily turnout is essential for horses
9. Not exploiting staff
10. Being present, visible and accountable
11. Not beating up clients...

Number 11 on that list sets the bar pretty low ?
Clearly you’ve been on some interesting yards!
 

Frumpoon

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Number 11 on that list sets the bar pretty low ?
Clearly you’ve been on some interesting yards!

Like I said...it's a completely unregulated industry....anybody of any background with any level of experience can set up a yard, the lack of competition and the price of land means they will get some custom
 

Boulty

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I ask myself this question a lot at the moment. To be fair it's not that a lot of yards are "bad" they are just catering to someone who isn't me as what I want is a bit contradictory. I don't like stabling, would prefer not to have to do it, value turnout above all other things yet have a native that ideally shouldn't have too much lush grass. Oh & I need either solid fencing or very well maintained electric with at least 3 or 4 strands (ideally wire not tape). Oh & if there is an arena I'd like a decent surface that isn't either down to the membrane, full of rocks or stupidly deep / if there's a grass schooling area then I'd expect it to be maintained in a nice rut-free condition. Oh & during Covid I need full care part of the time as I'm working long hours. I'm willing to pay over the odds for this. I don't care about things like walkers, wash boxes, tea rooms or solariums, however most of the yards around here seem to assume that if you need full liver as an option then you must also want these things (but I DO need decent hacking & if I'm honest I'd prefer to have an arena of some sort or at least an enclosed grass area). A lot of full livery yards out my way also make the assumption you must want individual turnout.
 

Red-1

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I found it difficult enough that I moved to a different town (nearly another county) to a cheaper area to keep mine at home. We then had the addition of a Sh*tland, have fencing and arena maintenance to do, but it was worth it.

At times of need I have found another yard to use. It is highly professional, but about double the cost of what the cheapest local offering would be. You do have the bear in mind that they are looking after the best interests of all, not just yours, but they are fair and, most importantly, honest. Worth it for the excellent management (what YO says is what happens), kindness, facilities, the standard of the riding.

I am very fussy. I pick and oil inside and outside of feet twice a day. I wait for the horse to be compliant in their heads before removing a halter. I poo pick every day. My horse never stands in. My horses never stand with nothing to eat. I use 3 bales of shavings a week to keep the bed white. I won't have standard buckets, wednesbury clips on ropes or head collars left on. I am up front about this, and don't expect lies, the two yards I have been happy about have been honest about what they can offer, and when I say X is important to me, they simply up the cost to cover the extra. EG, for 2 extra bales of shavings, I expect to pay around £15 a week more than standard livery. Extra for the bale and extra for the extra work.
 

bluehorse

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At times of need I have found another yard to use. It is highly professional, but about double the cost of what the cheapest local offering would be. You do have the bear in mind that they are looking after the best interests of all, not just yours, but they are fair and, most importantly, honest. Worth it for the excellent management (what YO says is what happens), kindness, facilities, the standard of the riding.

Now that is priceless!

Without fail the owner of each yard I’ve been in the last 18 months has actually lied about what they provide, or are prepared to provide, meaning I’ve had to move my poor horse around 3 yards in that period. And I’m now stuck where I am as I can’t face moving again and frankly have run out of yards. My horse is settled and the standard of care is overall ok, but not that good really and the worst thing is the feeding regime which sees horses fed small hay nets as if they’re meals, and when they’re finished they have stand with nothing until the next haynet along. The horses are all hungry and so stuff their hay as fast as they can when they do have it. I wouldn’t mind if it was little and often. But it’s little and not often. My 17hh 8yo WB is left with probably about 4kg of hay to last from 7pm until 6am the next morning. All bucket feeds are soaked with loads of water so they really bulk up and almost fill the buckets ‘to make them feel like they’ve had a good meal’. I don’t use the feed provided by the yard and have just decided to split his daily feed into 3 instead of his usual 2 to reduce their large size caused by excessive soaking (nothing I feed needs soaking, just wetting prior to feeding). The yard owner has no grasp of feeding or nutrition whatsoever unfortunately, the ‘live on air’ types all look fine, the bigger finer types not so much...
 

Bernster

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It would actually be very interesting to do a study on YM and YOs in relation to what percentage of their time is spent actually looking after horses v dealing with people. People who are fantastic horse people don’t necessarily make a success of running a yard because they aren’t necessarily good people people.

I would also be interested to see the results of a survey of people’s main livery yard gripes and, of those, which ones actually require spending money to put right. I used to be a secretary in an NHS trust and my boss dealt with all the patient complaints arising from a particular hospital. Only a very few of those formal complaints concerned the clinical aspects of care: diagnosis, timely treatment, correct treatment etc. The overwhelming majority were about communication, lack of kindness, not treating people with dignity and respect, not involving patients in their care plans, that sort of thing. Not one of those costs a Trust money to implement, but by god did they cost us a lot of resource to put right when they weren’t there. Same with livery yards - basic communication, care, kindness and good management are free but if they are not there even the most incredible facilities would struggle to mitigate their absence.

this! Most of my issues would have been fairly easy to sort out and were about basic horse care (more hay overnight, mucking out better, not leaving head collar on so that it rubs raw the horses face and causes a cut!). But the most common is poor client service, poor communication, inflexibility over stuff that’s easy to compromise over.
 

View

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I do agree that yards need to provide the service that they say they will provide - and price accordingly so that they have enough income to cover their costs, pay staff fairly, and put some money aside for repairs, routine refurbishment and upgrades.

But too many yards fail to cost properly, and hence end up skimping on services, bedding, hay etc.
 

Smogul

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I reckon the yards are out there, there are a few near me, but they are madly expensive and don’t do DIY, which means I wouldn’t touch them. No offence to anyone on full livery, but I know I’d be complacent and never go up. ?

Not trying to hijack thread, but why do you have a horse if you would never go near it if you didn't have to???
 

VioletStripe

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This has been a really interesting read - I've been checking in and out quite a bit and re-reading everyone's responses!

It is so interesting to hear some personal experiences and opinions around this - I am particularly surprised around the standard of horse care in Germany!

It makes sense when you think about the UK and land price etc... I wonder if BHS accreditation (or others... I am unaware of other organisations, maybe there should be a separate livery council?) should include some regulation/qualification for YMs and the likes.

Does anyone know about other countries abroad? Perhaps the US? I know their attitude to horses and horse care is incredibly different to the UK, but they're also big on 'customer satisfaction' generally... I wonder if they're more flexible in regards to personal preferences. Plus, the amount of space they have to work with removes one of the UK's problems!
 

Cinnamontoast

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Not trying to hijack thread, but why do you have a horse if you would never go near it if you didn't have to???

He's retired and prior to lockdown, I was only going up a few times a week due to my amazing sharer/her friend and it taking an hour to get there from work. I'm glad to say that this has changed and I'm going up daily. I had also been very wary of going into the field after a rather gruesome accident.
 

Sussexbythesea

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Everyone always says its due to people not charging enough. Its not been my experience at all. Some of the most expensive yards have been the worst. I'm on a very cheap DIY yard now. Its a lovely yard, enough land and almost no restrictions on turn out. The YO is just putting in a new outdoor school. Admittedly he can do it cheaper than most as he has labour and machinery, but he is making enough from the cheap DIY to do it.
My experience too, the most expensive yard I was on was the worst in terms of care and mad yard owner plus bitchy liveries. The cheapest two I’ve been on (not that cheap) were the best. I do believe there are some very cheap yards that simply don’t Charge enough and cut corners but mostly it’s the attitude of the yard owner that sets the scene.
 

Ish2020

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To be honest there is always something everyone Doesn’t like about a yard. Once my horse is being correctly care for than I willing to look past on other issues. I don’t think it about money because I have heard of horrible stories how bad horses were taken care of in super expensive yards . My horsy friends have been on them yards so that how I now .
 

YorksG

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To those people who want livery yard owners/ managers to have to obtain qualifications before they can run, the cost would have to be added to the prices.
Yards are overstocked to make ends meet, because prices no where near reflect cost.
We don't have liveries, but did have one fit a year as a favour. What I consider to be normal horse care isn't the same as the person who came here!
The only way to ensure you have exactly what you want is to buy your own I'm afraid. For yard to maintain high standards costs a lot of money, most liveries don't want to pay it.
 

chocolategirl

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Like I said...it's a completely unregulated industry....anybody of any background with any level of experience can set up a yard, the lack of competition and the price of land means they will get some custom
I’ve been saying this for a long time. If yards were regulated, it would put the worst ones out of business, and in turn allow the good ones to charge a higher price, therefore actually making it worthwhile for them to operate?‍♀️ It’s a massive welfare issue in my opinion, and unfathomable to me how it’s been allowed to go on unregulated all these years! I’m a YO btw in case anyone was wondering?
 

Sussexbythesea

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To those people who want livery yard owners/ managers to have to obtain qualifications before they can run, the cost would have to be added to the prices.
Yards are overstocked to make ends meet, because prices no where near reflect cost.
We don't have liveries, but did have one fit a year as a favour. What I consider to be normal horse care isn't the same as the person who came here!
The only way to ensure you have exactly what you want is to buy your own I'm afraid. For yard to maintain high standards costs a lot of money, most liveries don't want to pay it.
The usual answer given to us non-landowning plebs.
 

Caol Ila

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Nah, the US isn't better. Some awesome barns, many crap ones. Some cheap places with falling-down barbed wire fences, some eye-wateringly expensive places with barns and paddocks fit for kings, and everything in between. Lots of places run by crazy people as well. No shortage of that. Unlike the UK, sometimes the crazy barn owners are armed. A friend has a story of desperately throwing a horse into a trailer in a midnight escape while the drunken barn owner waved a gun at them.

The grazing isn't as straightforward as you think just because they have more space -- at least where I lived. In New England, they don't have more space, so finding a yard that has lots of space for turnout is hard work. Most don't. Maybe as you get into middle-of-nowhere Upstate NY, for instance, there is, but in Western Massachusetts, not where I was.

And in the western states, there's tons of land but very little grazing that would sustain the amount of horses kept at most boarding barns. It's technically a desert, as far as rainfall goes. It's dry, dry, dry. Ours lived on hay 365 days per year. It was thrown into the paddocks or put in ring feeders. The grass comes in when it rains, but no barn can count on it as we get long, drought periods pretty much every summer.
 

Sussexbythesea

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I’ve been saying this for a long time. If yards were regulated, it would put the worst ones out of business, and in turn allow the good ones to charge a higher price, therefore actually making it worthwhile for them to operate?‍♀️ It’s a massive welfare issue in my opinion, and unfathomable to me how it’s been allowed to go on unregulated all these years! I’m a YO btw in case anyone was wondering?
The worst ones I’ve been on are BHS / ABRS approved ones. Trouble is they don’t regulate their members properly so it would have to be done as a separate body. In addition it still won’t make all yard owners decent or improve their communication skills.
I’ve been on my current yard 10 years it’s on a farm estate and we don’t have anyone looking over our shoulder and it’s bliss. We’re painting it ourselves this weekend estate is providing the wood stain and paint.
 

Tarragon

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I think that there are as many ways of keeping your horse and pony as there are horses and ponies, so it is impossible to have a livery yard that will suit everyone. The best ones are the ones that have decided on a vertical market and concentrated on meeting the needs of that market. So a livery with a track system, or herd turnout, and facilities for owners of animals needing grass intake managed, or a serious competition yard with all the facilities and limited but quality turn out, or a field on farm with a lot of autonomy for the self-sufficient and more independent owners (that's me ;))
None of the above broad groups would be happy in a livery yard of one of the other groups.
Horses for courses as they say!
 
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