Cortez
Tough but Fair
Alright, if you do the same for mine.....I am planning to move to Spain, so it may be quite hot.
Why are there no good livery yards?
- Thread starter VioletStripe
- Start date
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
I was BHS trained, I am fairly H&S aware in many ways mainly trying to avoid accidents by being one step ahead, years of experience does not prevent accidents but does give you a head start, I rarely wear gloves to handle the horses, I do sometimes when lunging, a hat is for riding and walking one on box rest, if I remember to put it on, I do not own a BP as I stopped jumping xc some time ago so it was binned when it was out of standard, I regularly chuck rugs on a loose horse and my footwear in summer is definitely not suitable for wearing near horses
I would definitely fail my exams now
I have a few safety rules for liveries when riding, hats obviously at all times, hi viz hacking but otherwise within reason they can do as they like, I know their tack is safe and that they have enough common sense to be relatively safe.
Not everyone who has passed exams is an idiot, but many idiots have passed exams. Some of the local AI types have absolutely no horse sense and ride /manage their own horses / yards appallingly.
Then there are proper horse people like you and aus whose exam history is only a fragment of your horsemanship.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
My yard was a livery yard once back in its history. We have had loads of people ask for livery whilst we have been here. Some have been OK when we said that no, we don't do livery, but some have been really snotty about it, as though we have a duty to do so - as we have stables and land where they want their horse. Not sure why they thought being snotty would entice me to take them on!
I didn't think we could afford a yard etc, but we moved to the back of beyond and between us had 4 hours of travelling a day. We were so skint. We had just a little portable TV until about 10 years ago. The sort that were as deep as they were square. We would shut off 1/3 of the house in winter so we didn't have to heat it.
Now we are old and creaky we do sometimes think of selling up and doing a normal house and livery. It is such hard work, and not that much cheaper TBH, with maintenance. Coronavirus has made us think twice too, as being home for 10 weeks in 2 acres is a lot nicer than a smaller space. Plus, I read about livery and it brings me up short. I am not sure how many more years we will find fencing, topping etc 'fun' though.
I didn't think we could afford a yard etc, but we moved to the back of beyond and between us had 4 hours of travelling a day. We were so skint. We had just a little portable TV until about 10 years ago. The sort that were as deep as they were square. We would shut off 1/3 of the house in winter so we didn't have to heat it.
Now we are old and creaky we do sometimes think of selling up and doing a normal house and livery. It is such hard work, and not that much cheaper TBH, with maintenance. Coronavirus has made us think twice too, as being home for 10 weeks in 2 acres is a lot nicer than a smaller space. Plus, I read about livery and it brings me up short. I am not sure how many more years we will find fencing, topping etc 'fun' though.
The Fuzzy Furry
Old Timer
Bum, I wonder where I fall *waves hand with old BHS qualifications* as I seem to have a good grasp of Fuzzy keeping and wrangling, but during day to day stuff I might just get reprimanded..... such as headcollars are usually only used for travelling and farrier visits etc.
Cortez said:
Deal! ??
Boulty
Well-Known Member
I've just sat down & worked out I've messaged 20 odd yards in the last few weeks. Add about another 20 suggested to me that were discounted due to them not fitting criteria. I have viewed TWO! (Admittedly some of them that I didn't go to see were full rather than anything bad). I am trying to compromise where I can but there's some things I really can't!
bluehorse
Well-Known Member
This goes back to the point that many yards do not have a correct business model in place. I think sometimes people go into liveries without really understanding the real cost, and then struggle to make a living (certainly the case on one yard I’ve been on). It is not the fault of the livery (or their horse for that matter, it’s usually the horses that suffer when corners are cut) if the yard owner isn’t making a living. I don’t actually think making yard owners become qualified would make a difference. Just because someone has a piece of paper it doesn’t mean they’re any good at their job, it’s the same in all areas of work.
How do you actually know liveries don’t want to pay for a decent yard? Most of the posts on here haven’t actually been about costs, they’ve been about poor management, and poor standards of care. I don’t think anyone has moaned about actual costs? People seem willing to pay good money for a yard they’re happy in, whether that is hundreds of pounds for top notch full livery with fantastic facilities, or comparative pennies for a basic paddock and a stable.
I really don’t believe that the costs liveries are prepared to pay is what makes a yard bad.
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JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
The Fuzzy Furry
Old Timer
??????People who sculpt muck heap castles are not BHS indoctrinated nutters
I learned to 'correctly' sculpt whilst obtaining said BHS certs ?
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
bluehorse
Well-Known Member
I understand your point, you are indeed correct. But if you rent a furnished house your landlord has to ensure all that basic facilities such as furniture, electrics, heating, appliances are legally compliant. So in other words, safe and generally habitable. They can charge what they like, and the person who rents it will have a budget which will make it affordable or not. If the renter can’t afford it they’ll have to rent somewhere else, maybe a 2 bed rather than a 4 bed, but the requirements for the same basic standard will be the same, regardless of the size or type of the property.
This post isn’t about people moaning that their landlord won’t put a 2 bed extension onto the 2 bed house that they took at a lower price. Or install a jacuzzi for that matter. Neither is it about liveries slating the owners of their very basic farm livery as they are refusing to put in a 20x60 floodlit fibresand arena, with a full set of Jump for Joy show jumps. It’s not even about said farm livery owner actually installing the new arena (with show jumps of course) and then sticking their prices up to pay for it. That would be completely reasonable, but this point the livery has a choice to make - stay or go, and find another good basic farm livery that they are able to or want to pay for.
I don’t think price is as important as you think it is when it comes to why some yards are bad. It’s definitely not about what liveries wanting something for nothing.
The Fuzzy Furry
Old Timer
We had inter yard team comps for best muckheap sculptures each week ?Ah I'm a freestyle sculptor. I follow my own rules
I really pished off my late mother by creating same when i returned (just took longer as no wp's and instead of 70 stabled i had only 8 in at mine). Best was castle walls and a space rocket of button moon type.....
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
I don't think they'd appreciate my throwing rugs on loose horses in fields while wearing trainers, no gloves, no hat... TBH it's a good thing if I've not forgotten to put trousers on
I'm BHS qualified - and you're crazy if you think we do it the BHS way - however it's a good guide to safety for the many suicidal fecking idiots in this industry (trust me on that, I've seen some sights ).
JFTDWS
+++ Out of Cheese Error +++
You might not, but I've met some who do, and others who are just idiots in many and various other ways.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
And regarding full livery - I've tried, and I found it followed a pattern.
Before moving to yard - everything you want would be done, daily turnout, unlimited hay in fields and in haynets in stable, full water buckets, poo picking in field done, horses groomed, feet picked out, rugs changed at night, given drugs, stables full of clean bedding.
On arrival and for first month - brilliant, all of the promises kept.
From second/third month onward - horse fed around 9.30am, turned out about 10am. Stable skipped out, pee left. Haynet half-filled, water bucket topped up so going gradually green and slimy. Horse caught in at 2pm so grooms could go home at 5pm. Rugs changed, but no grooming/foot picking out. Injuries not spotted. Haynet eaten by 5pm. I would go up after work at 5pm to dirty horses with empty nets expected to starve until 10am until they went into a field with no hay...was told 'your horses are pigs and are eating their haynets too fast'.
From fourth month - back on DIY, as I end up doing all the work, while paying full livery, and being treated like a leper if I dare ask for anything.
So although I would love full (or part) livery, it's such a con - they skimp on hay, bedding, time and don't care as they won't be paying the vet bills...
Before moving to yard - everything you want would be done, daily turnout, unlimited hay in fields and in haynets in stable, full water buckets, poo picking in field done, horses groomed, feet picked out, rugs changed at night, given drugs, stables full of clean bedding.
On arrival and for first month - brilliant, all of the promises kept.
From second/third month onward - horse fed around 9.30am, turned out about 10am. Stable skipped out, pee left. Haynet half-filled, water bucket topped up so going gradually green and slimy. Horse caught in at 2pm so grooms could go home at 5pm. Rugs changed, but no grooming/foot picking out. Injuries not spotted. Haynet eaten by 5pm. I would go up after work at 5pm to dirty horses with empty nets expected to starve until 10am until they went into a field with no hay...was told 'your horses are pigs and are eating their haynets too fast'.
From fourth month - back on DIY, as I end up doing all the work, while paying full livery, and being treated like a leper if I dare ask for anything.
So although I would love full (or part) livery, it's such a con - they skimp on hay, bedding, time and don't care as they won't be paying the vet bills...
bluehorse
Well-Known Member
It’s a shame this had turned into another livery bashing thread. Of course there are bad liveries, or people who are generally a nightmare just because they can be. I’m sure we all know at least one of those. But maybe some yard owners should really also be looking at their own behaviours if they have a constant stream of issues with horrendous clients. If you’re consistently ending up with liveries causing grief, either with the type of person you’re allowing onto your yard, or with behaviours not matching your expectations, I’m afraid you’re doing something wrong. Or maybe you just haven’t got the right temperament to be a service provider, in which case you’ve done the right thing in walking away.
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Abi90
Well-Known Member
I have been on full livery and DIY. For the most part the full livery service has looked after the horse properly even if they did things differently to how I would and I never quite understood the issue people had with yards but I have now been on the yard that did similar to what you described and it was exhausting. I’m currently on a smaller full livery yard with less facilities and paying more but my horse is looked after properly.
Shilasdair
Patting her thylacine
I agree with you bluehorse.
If you stayed in a hotel and complained that the bathroom was dirty, you'd be astonished if the hotel manager said 'Well, you are just a badly behaved bitch of a guest and I'm walking away' - but that's the default attitude?
I also think that the price of UK land is kept artificially high by the BPS schemes...let the market decide!
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Really? Most of the complaints about yards I've seen on this thread and on this forum and the COTH forum aren't people being 'bitchy' or complaining about banal stuff, but rather people bemoaning the craziness and lack of professionalism that seems common amongst yards. I don't think I'm unreasonable, but here's a list of pet peeves. These are from a number of different yards, not all in the UK.
Don't shout 'Your horse has been here eight years. She is going to go downhill and die,' while I am trying to wrestle said horse into lorry to move her off your yard.
Don't ask a mate of yours to phone the place where the horse ended up and make up completely bullsh*t stories about me to that yard owner.
Don't tell me that nothing my horse can possibly do will ever faze you, and you have dealt with much tougher horses than her, and then four days later, ask me to leave your yard because my horse is too difficult.
Dont tell me how I should clip my horse's face and mane because you think it's important that the barn present the right 'image.'
Don't take my horse out of the stable, lunge her, and then send a text telling me she's lame, because I told you to leave her in her stable, due to aforesaid mild lameness, and added that I would be up the next morning to check her. Nowhere did I ask you to lunge my damn horse.
Don't tell me my horse is fencewalking because 'her blood is too hot.' I don't even know what that means.
Don't tell my sharer that I'm 'enabling' said fencewalking, and the stereotypie is entirely my fault.
Don't have an affair with my vet and then ban the vet from the yard when your husband finds out.
Don't give my horse a blood test for a neurological disease she definitely doesn't have while I am out of state for a week, and then tell me about it when I get a $100 vet bill two weeks later.
Don't give me a bollocking for taking my horse to a two-day clinic, but act all smiley and happy when another owner takes theirs to a two-day show. Either it's kosher for people to take their horses to multiday events or it isn't.
Don't text me saying that my horse has a really terrible nosebleed, but when I cane it back to the barn, I find that you're not with the horse, nor have you called or texted to say the horse is fine. Either the horse is in good enough shape to be left, in which case you should tell me before I have a heart attack or put the car in a ditch, or she isn't.
Don't tell my friend -- but not me -- how I should be caring for my horse, and then getting offended because I'm blowing off your hearsay advice, and then complaining I don't listen to you because you're totally a God of horsemanship and know more than my vet, who said the exact opposite of what you told my friend.
Don't charge me £10 per day (on top of full livery) for box rest but charge owners you like nothing extra except for shavings.
Don't tell me it is impossible for you to bring in my horse early due to laminitis risk, but then when another livery, but one you like, asks for that exact service, you're more than willing to help out. You lose more points because the first person in this scenario worked for the NHS and had to hustle like mad to deal with this, while the second was retired.
Don't tell me you trained Pat Parelli, Monty Roberts, and the entire US Olympic team. Or that you invented natural horsemanship. And that you keep rescued tigers at your other farm (though the last one could be true).
Don't tell me that my saddle that didn't quite fit almost killed my horse, and you saved her life with a gel pad.
And compared to some stories I've heard, those are banal. As a horse owner, I hope I'm not too demanding. But I like it when barn owners aren't totally crazy. That is all we ask -- something akin to sanity and vague people skills.
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be positive
Well-Known Member
As a YO it is not a constant stream of bad liveries causing grief, most of mine have been great, cause no trouble and are happy their horses get good standards of care, with daily turnout all year and ad lib forage, two of the things that are regularly complained about by owners, but there is always the odd one that really does make you take stock and wonder why you do it.
My last 'bad' owner was ok in summer having 3 turned out 24/7 in their own field but when they came in overnight at the start of the winter I was completely stunned when they were brought in, given hay that ran out by 10pm, I do late checks and saw they had none left but just made a mental note to mention it next morning, by 9 am no one had turned up feed, turn out so I sent a text to see where they were, at work not planning on coming until 6 pm was the answer, my next text said what about them getting hay, they are being restricted and will get some later was the reply
, they were gone within a week as they just didn't get it and I was not prepared to have horses kept that way on my yard. The owner competed BD, had a 'trainer' who came regularly, talked about how committed she was but could not come twice a day to see to them because 'she worked full time'I have had a few other questionable ones but most were just inexperienced and wanted advice, help, would listen and observe, they I can deal with, enjoy helping but a few bad apples really do make you wonder why you run a yard.
DirectorFury
Well-Known Member
I had no idea that Joe Exotic ran a livery yard
.I've come to the realisation that there's no livery yard that's absolutely perfect, and have compromised on my riding/training/competition aims to ensure that the horse gets the highest standard of care. She's on a full livery on a lovely small yard - a working farm so it's not immaculate and there are no facilities beyond the American barn - but YO loves her to bits and the care is always spot on. They get to go out 12 hours a day in winter in large, well draining, fields with a roundbale and stable, content herd. They're out 24/7 as soon as the weather clears up and when it gets really hot they come in for 8 hours during the day. And (this sounds insane but) the horses all seem to know that if they stand at the gate at any point someone will come out to check on them and bring them in if they want. It's a happy place and the horses always come first.
I badly want a huge school like the one we had on a previous yard but there was no care there at all; YO watched a horse go through an electric fence and get tangled in it and just walked off. Full livery horses wouldn't get seen to until 11am-midday and the muck outs involved just mixing the shite back into the bed. I've told my current YO that if she ever stops doing livery I'll be selling the horse as I know I'd struggle to find a yard like hers.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
At one point I was happy to share my yard, its not very good for hacking but there are plenty of people who never ride, and I have two indoor stables I hardly ever use. I attracted the most bizarre people, and ended up with someone owing me £300+rent, and that was with a contract in place, and I almost had to get the bailiffs in to get rid of them.
I have been on about four largish livery yards over the years, and when people moan about YO/YM I often think FGS, just think of being on a yard where half the people are in a constant state of, 'my horse is, and can you?' every time you see them, and somehow the expect you to accommodate their needs. Its a bit like going to a restaurant where they have a set menu and then being disappointed when they will not add something to the meal when they only have those ingredients and certain amount of time.
People are difficult, when I am getting paid well I am quite happy to put up with it with a smile, but not for what ever the going rate is for livery.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Any decent BHS qualified yard manager would allow owners to do their own thing, assuming you weren't going to die in the process. Lot of paperwork if someone snuffs it. Please don't assume those qualified and managing yards are all 'do it to the letter of the BHS law', they're really not, and especially not those who are this generation of exam takers (surprisingly modern in approach now - I was asked in my most recent exam what my yard's procedure was for pts/dispach/collection when it came to a livery horse). A world way from the approach of the yard I was working for.
Though I will say, so what if a yard was to enforce a hat for turning out/bringing in? It's for your own safety. For anyone who's ever had to read a full equestrian centre insurance policy word for word, you'd perhaps understand why a bit more.
Where you get the issues are the old school types who don't appreciate the industry has moved on in the thirty years since they qualified. My last job meant management of the liveries and it was hard balancing owner versus (old school) yard owner demands. You can have the best facilities around and all year turnout, and still not manage to keep livery numbers up... This is/was a centre that has a business model others would die for, trust me.
I think the biggest problem is the venn diagram of the lack of client/customer service that's provided; a lot of cheap service provision which people accept, so the yards that charge a decent price to cover their costs, let alone dare try and make a profit get accused of being expensive; old school management which a lot of horse owners now don't agree with; demand for grazing.
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Frumpoon
Well-Known Member
It might be the part of the country I am in and the type of Livery that is typically on offer but i don't know a single Livery yard owner that's works themselves to the bone...they might work other people to the bone, but definitely not themselves
Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
@teapot, I was semi joking! In the same month as my accident, my husband’s friend’s sister had a horrible accident turning out, she was double barrelled in the head. Her skull cracked like an egg all the way round and wouldn’t heal. Recovery video:
bluehorse
Well-Known Member
The best yards I’ve ever been in have been the strictest tbh. One was a small private yard and one was the biggest yard I’ve ever been on, 20ish horses and a mix of full and DIY. Both quite different yards in terms of the way they ran things, and I made different compromises to be at both depending on what I prioritised as mine and my horse’s needs at the time. Both owners were knowledgeable, but in different ways - one BS family, one traditional hunting farmers. I didn’t necessarily agree with either of them on everything, with regards to horse care. But what both those yards had in common was that the owners ruled with a rod of iron! Rules were rules, break them at your own risk. Everyone knew the rules, and everyone was treated exactly the same regardless of who they were or whether they were full or DIY. Nobody stepped out of line, nobody dared ?. If you don’t like the rules, leave. People who didn’t look after their horses properly were spoken to, then if no immediate improvements, asked to leave. And they left. Was I scared of those yard owners? Yea definitely ? But there was no bitchiness, and no nightmare people. And most of all, no stress! Let’s not forget here, nightmare liveries actually affect decent liveries on the yard too. It’s quite upsetting seeing horses treated badly and not looked after, or being bitched about by the yard clique. I’ve experienced both of those situations, the latter more than once as I tend to keep myself to myself and am not one for standing around chatting all day when I could be riding.
The worst yards have been the most laid back, where there are no rules. Great for liveries who are responsible, respectful and capable of looking after their horses independently. But unfortunately then you get those who will take advantage and treat the place like they own it, in the absence of any input from the yard owner. Also yard owners trying too hard to be friends with their liveries can cause problems, I’ve seen favouritism and little cliques of YO friends forming, to the detriment of relationships with other liveries on the yard. I know lots of people on here have said about they are on lovely yards like this and I’m truly envious as this would be my ideal, so I can do my own thing and look after my horse without being bothered by anybody. But certainly in my old area the yards I was on like that were not fun places to be.
So for me strict yards win, if I don’t like the rules I’ll go. Yard owners, just remember to tell me what the exact rules are, and what you are or are not prepared to accommodate, before I commit to coming please!
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
I've found the only way to make sure I am happy and the horses is happy, is to be on a very cheap and basic DIY yard. The other liveries are on the whole sensible which means its a lot easier, and the owner leaves us to it. I buy in services on top from a YM/freelancer. It can cost me as much as full livery some months, but I have complete control over hay, feed, turnout etc.
There are compromises to be made, but I am more than happy to make them. If this yard shuts for any reason I will give serious thought to giving up!
There are compromises to be made, but I am more than happy to make them. If this yard shuts for any reason I will give serious thought to giving up!
Bernster
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure on costs. Full livery is a big chunk of cash but if I get what I’ve paid for then I don’t begrudge it ie the livery care and service they say they provide at the start.
Most full livery yards around me are in a similar price range but I’ve know people who have left when they’ve put the price up. Although often that’s the last straw (hah) on top of other things that bother them.
Most full livery yards around me are in a similar price range but I’ve know people who have left when they’ve put the price up. Although often that’s the last straw (hah) on top of other things that bother them.
bluehorse
Well-Known Member
I’d love to find one like that where I live now!
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Perhaps that is in response to the tone of the thread title?
That gives the impression that all yards are impossible to keep horses on, so, of course, YOs will answer with their own experiences of impossible liveries.
sport horse
Well-Known Member
I am afraid that you must be in the wrong yards. Certainly here, I looked after my liveries as I do my own competition horses and youngstock and as these compete up to international level that is a pretty decent level of care. My first 3 liveries were with me for over 20 years each and are still great friends. However one or two later ones were not so great and when my 'oldies' gave up horses I gave up liveries.
My staff, who are all paid well and have a 8.30 to 5 pm day 5 day week(why should they work every hour under the sun and have no life?) are covered by myself - I feed at 7.30am and do late hay at 9.30 to 10pm, 7 days/week/52 weeks/year. I would say that is pretty dedicated and frankly for the odd £10/week profit you might make putting up with the attitudes that are prevalent on here if is not worth it.
I have a lovely yard, brick boxes, fantastic hacking, arena, loose school,
walker, wash box, show jumps etc etc. as well as over 50 acres and apart from my staff horses I own every single animal on site and that is how it will stay.