Why are there no good livery yards?

[throughtheforest]

In my experience livery yards have good and bad aspects, the best option is owning/ renting your own land. What's ticking my off at the moment is seeing my yard advertise for grass livery when there's no flipping grass left! We have to hay all year round.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I quite simply don't believe that horses were hunting hard or jumping grade A on the weekends with no work midweek and no soundness issues. There's a reason "Monday morning sickness" was a thing back in the day...

And I think it's up to the individual to decide if they can balance a horse around a full time job / commute if they can find a yard without restrictive opening hours.

That would explain Why back in the day 12 was aged for a horse and would you really want to be on a yard run by someone who is competing at international level wants to brag that they competed or hunted horses without straight from a field. My old dad would have a melt down as he taught me the old fashioned ways of fittening horses and did I get fed up if just walking endless miles. Such a sad industry.

 

[honetpot]

I can’t r


You seem a obsessed to be honest. Nobody made you have liveries and you no longer have liveries and to have liveries is completely optional. I really don’t understand what your beef is. You’re becoming pretty insulting to the majority of people who work hard and look after their horses well on DIY of other types of livery if they do need or wish to. If they’ve only a small “patch” then that’s probably down to what is on offer locally. Grazing or lack of is of great concern to many posters on this forum and something that causes a lot of angst.

You can keep horses on a patch but it takes a lot more planning which in my experience there are not many people who have the time or experience to do. Its more expensive, you have to buy in forage, buy bedding, exercise them and work out who can go out with who.
As most of our country is either too wet or too dry, land expensive, the now just about unattainable vision of the traditional stable yard and 365 days a year turnout, unless you can pay a lot of money just not viable long term. If horses were kept like cows in groups in open barns I think a lot would be a lot happier
Mine get turned out in group in a mud patch every day in winter, the rest of the land would be trashed if the were when it was wet. I have been ridiculed openly for my style of management, but I have never had a horse lame or sick because of it in 40+ years of horse ownership, or even one case of mud fever. Looking after horses is not only about working hard, its about using knowledge and applying it to the situation you are in so its lessens any stress to the horse and prevents illness.
We used to hunt off grass in winter, a farm livery with masses of grass. You turn out as soon as you get home, if clipped in a rug, so they can roll and cool down naturally. Give them an hour or so, go back and feed and do a rug change, by that time they have dried and settled. I'm more worried about them standing on a lorry on in a stable when they get home. So yes it is possible to work them hard off grass, its having the grass.

 

[be positive]

I quite simply don't believe that horses were hunting hard or jumping grade A on the weekends with no work midweek and no soundness issues. There's a reason "Monday morning sickness" was a thing back in the day...

And I think it's up to the individual to decide if they can balance a horse around a full time job / commute if they can find a yard without restrictive opening hours.

I don't go so far back but my memories of keeping horses in the late 70's was that hunters were in all winter, possibly out on a Sunday, they worked hard the other 6 days a week, got fit slowly, they were turned away all summer by which time the eventers or SJ's were in a similar amount of work, the RS horses and ponies were all hunting fit and some did hunt in the winter.
The yard I trained on had a lot of older equines, well into their twenties still in regular work, albeit lighter once they needed to slow down, I don't ever remember anything tying up, no laminitis, most of the time they were all sound and in full work although they did all get a decent holiday every summer, unusual set up where the main weekday clients were the local private schools so most of the ponies had a break in the holidays, we spent the time haymaking.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I don't go so far back but my memories of keeping horses in the late 70's was that hunters were in all winter, possibly out on a Sunday, they worked hard the other 6 days a week, got fit slowly, they were turned away all summer by which time the eventers or SJ's were in a similar amount of work, the RS horses and ponies were all hunting fit and some did hunt in the winter.
The yard I trained on had a lot of older equines, well into their twenties still in regular work, albeit lighter once they needed to slow down, I don't ever remember anything tying up, no laminitis, most of the time they were all sound and in full work although they did all get a decent holiday every summer, unusual set up where the main weekday clients were the local private schools so most of the ponies had a break in the holidays, we spent the time haymaking.

It's not doubting competing or hunting off grass, it's the horses doing nothing for 6 days then hunt or compete at grade a on a Saturday that is rather questionable, fitness wise.

 

[be positive]

It's not doubting competing or hunting off grass, it's the horses doing nothing for 6 days then hunt or compete at grade a on a Saturday that is rather questionable, fitness wise.

I was agreeing that it was questionable as my experiences were very different in the yards I knew where they were in hard work, the fact they lived in was possibly not relevant but at that time horses did tend to be in all winter if they were in full work, I remember ponies, brood mares and youngsters out but not horses in work, one livery yard I worked on had around 30 full liveries that were in pretty much 12 months a year, it had no real turnout just a paddock for the odd leg stretch, the yard was always full and the horses were ridden 6 days a week by the staff or their owners. It is not how I would choose to keep them now but I, like you, am surprised that back in the day, not too long before my day, horses were competing or hunting with no exercise all week.

 

[Blazingsaddles]

Another on a truly DIY yard. No arena, no fancy stables just my horse and her paddock/stable which I manage. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

 

[Shilasdair]

I remember an instructor who'd be about the same age group as Sporthorse who taught me as a student.
She regaled us all with a tale of her hunting hardiness;
'I fell off, broke my neck, tightened my stock up and got back on! What do you think of that?' she said proudly, awaiting our admiration.
As one we all said 'Bloody fool''. She couldn't understand us at all...

The times they are a-changing.

It's a good thing that people who think you hammer your horse at weekends then abandon it during the week when it is inconvenient, are leaving the industry. The new generation of competitors seem much more concerned for their horses' welfare - and their mental and physical fitness for the sport.

 

[JFTDWS]

I don't go so far back but my memories of keeping horses in the late 70's was that hunters were in all winter, possibly out on a Sunday, they worked hard the other 6 days a week, got fit slowly, they were turned away all summer by which time the eventers or SJ's were in a similar amount of work, the RS horses and ponies were all hunting fit and some did hunt in the winter.
The yard I trained on had a lot of older equines, well into their twenties still in regular work, albeit lighter once they needed to slow down, I don't ever remember anything tying up, no laminitis, most of the time they were all sound and in full work although they did all get a decent holiday every summer, unusual set up where the main weekday clients were the local private schools so most of the ponies had a break in the holidays, we spent the time haymaking.

On that regime, I can well understand fit, sound, long-lived horses!

 

[GoldenWillow]

I don't go so far back but my memories of keeping horses in the late 70's was that hunters were in all winter, possibly out on a Sunday, they worked hard the other 6 days a week, got fit slowly, they were turned away all summer by which time the eventers or SJ's were in a similar amount of work, the RS horses and ponies were all hunting fit and some did hunt in the winter.
The yard I trained on had a lot of older equines, well into their twenties still in regular work, albeit lighter once they needed to slow down, I don't ever remember anything tying up, no laminitis, most of the time they were all sound and in full work although they did all get a decent holiday every summer, unusual set up where the main weekday clients were the local private schools so most of the ponies had a break in the holidays, we spent the time haymaking.

This was exactly how the yard I grew up on worked.

 

[Caol Ila]

It is not offensive to say that people should take responsibly for the animals they own. If yards are so unsuitable people may need to reconsider if horse owning is viable for them

I spent seven or so years searching for a yard that was less shite than the one I was on. Horse welfare was fine, but owner welfare sucked, and I was losing my mind. But selling a 20+ year old horse is really not an option, especially when the reason is that the YOs treat you like crap but the horse has some special needs, so finding a suitable alternative isn't easy. You suck it and put up with the crap until a better alternative shows up, but you get some good stories out of it. Type II fun and all that.

 

[Muddywellies]

I both keep my horse and work at the yard I am on and honestly it is perfect for me. Decent turnout paddocks and my mare has a corale attached to her stable so she can be out all the time. It's part-livery or full livery at request. When on full livery, my stable is always immaculately mucked out. Theres a 20 x 40 rubber & sand school and access to hours of hacking. I also work there so know the level of care the horses receive from all the people there. Yes of course mistakes do get made...we are all human...but they are rare and only happen once after being bought up. It is pricey though. My livery bill would be about £500 a month including hay, parking for my horsebox and incidentals. But happy to pay it as I know my Y/O makes nothing from it.

Yards are definitely out there....you just have to search hard and keep an ear to the ground in your local area

No they really aren't out there. Trust me, I know every single yard in my area, having been constantly on the search for the past ten or so years. I've viewed umpteen yards and I'm convinced that what I'm after simply doesn't exist in this area. So I remain at a yard with appalling arena surfaces, dangerous fencing (I provide my own elec fencing to combat this), a very unpredictable/unreasonable yard owner, hot and dusty/draughty and muddy loosebox and pay over the odds for it. All other yards I've viewed have had worse (dangerous!) fencing, no storage, fields half a mile away, tiny fields, etc etc. I've now decided where I'm at is the best of a bad bunch and won't leave unless it is to my own yard which I'm looking for as we speak. I feel that in my area there is a definite gap in the market for a good quality DIY yard which is more expensive, but professionally run with decent facilities.

 

[Bernster]

Those last 2 posts have been very useful for me. Bit of a reality check. Need to keep my expectations low and accept that as long as the big stuff is ok (turnout, horse care, safety, main facilities) the rest I just have to put up with, for now.

 

[VioletStripe]

Those last 2 posts have been very useful for me. Bit of a reality check. Need to keep my expectations low and accept that as long as the big stuff is ok (turnout, horse care, safety, main facilities) the rest I just have to put up with, for now.

Out of interest, where in London are you Bernster? Rare to see another Londoner on here!

 

[HelenBack]

I think this thread is really sad. All the yard owners seems to hate their liveries and all the liveries hate their owners! That's really not good. I can see it both ways, I try to be a decent livery but I know full well that I've been a bit of a pain in the arse at times. My yard owners are really nice people and try to accommodate everybody's weird and wonderful demands but sometimes they do things that I think are really stupid and then I can't help but get frustrated.

I do think things have changed for the worse over the years (approx 35) that I've had horses though. I think the price is a big factor - livery is definitely too cheap for owners to be able to provide a decent service and make a living. I don't know how this happened and whether it's the yard owners' or the tenants' fault. On my yard there are plenty of us (me included) who would happily pay more for a really good set up but there are also some who are really tight and moan when the price goes up by £1 a week for the first time in years. I think there might be a place for some really decent yards that cost a lot more but I guess it's a brave move to try it and probably costs a lot of money to set up that lots of people don't have.

The other thing is that I think yards have changed to suit the owners and not the horses. Most horses couldn't give a toss about walkers and solariums and whatever other fancy facilities we want nowadays but a lot of places now have these at the cost of suitable turnout. Also I think there tends to be in my area at least a move towards big yards nowadays where one size generally fits all, which makes it harder to cater for individual needs.

I've posted on here in the past about there being no suitable yards in my area. There are quite a few semi-decent ones really but because they all operate on the same one size fits all model, if you have anything with slightly bespoke requirements then it gets really difficult. It would be okay if they all had slightly different approaches and then there would be something for everybody but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. If I find a yard that does meet my horse's special needs I would gladly pay my entire wages for it but I can't really see it happening.

So there seems to widely be a mismatch between what is offered and what the customer wants but nothing seems to be happening to change that apart from everybody moaning about each other.

I don't know what the answer is.

 

[be positive]

I rather resent the word hate, as a YO who has posted on this thread I certainly did not express anything like hate towards anyone, my liveries have, in the main, become friends as well as clients, even the few I did not like having here certainly never made me feel hate towards them and I hope this works both ways.
I am giving up, only 10 days to go, but I will miss them and know the few left will miss me, well they had better, 1 is moving to a new yard where she will get the support she needs, another is probably selling to give herself a break, after being here for almost 25 years she thinks it time to take stock in other parts of her life so selling may be the way to do that.

 

[HelenBack]

I rather resent the word hate, as a YO who has posted on this thread I certainly did not express anything like hate towards anyone, my liveries have, in the main, become friends as well as clients, even the few I did not like having here certainly never made me feel hate towards them and I hope this works both ways.
I am giving up, only 10 days to go, but I will miss them and know the few left will miss me, well they had better, 1 is moving to a new yard where she will get the support she needs, another is probably selling to give herself a break, after being here for almost 25 years she thinks it time to take stock in other parts of her life so selling may be the way to do that.

Yes, to be fair hate might be too strong a word and I've often read your posts on other threads and thought yours sounded like a good yard to be on so obviously this isn't the case always. There have been some pretty nasty comments both ways though! Although I suppose you always get that on a forum like this.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I rather resent the word hate, as a YO who has posted on this thread I certainly did not express anything like hate towards anyone, my liveries have, in the main, become friends as well as clients, even the few I did not like having here certainly never made me feel hate towards them and I hope this works both ways.
I am giving up, only 10 days to go, but I will miss them and know the few left will miss me, well they had better, 1 is moving to a new yard where she will get the support she needs, another is probably selling to give herself a break, after being here for almost 25 years she thinks it time to take stock in other parts of her life so selling may be the way to do that.

Anyone who had/ has you as a yard owner is very lucky indeed. I’ve never seen you be anything other than kind and encouraging on here. Your name suits you well.

 

[Bernster]

Out of interest, where in London are you Bernster? Rare to see another Londoner on here!

Wave! There are a few of us knocking about. I’m north London and tend to be Herts based where the horse is concerned.

be positive - sorry to hear you’re packing up as I too always like your sensible approach.

helenback - really good points, totally agree.

 

[Frumpoon]

Wave! There are a few of us knocking about. I’m north London and tend to be Herts based where the horse is concerned.

be positive - sorry to hear you’re packing up as I too always like your sensible approach.

helenback - really good points, totally agree.

I used to be up that way and still know a few of the yards if you wanted any intel

 

[be positive]

Wave! There are a few of us knocking about. I’m north London and tend to be Herts based where the horse is concerned.

be positive - sorry to hear you’re packing up as I too always like your sensible approach.

helenback - really good points, totally agree.

Counting down the days, completing on my new place on Friday, packing well under way I will still be involved, taking 3 'pets' with me and may take a rehab/ resting livery once I have got sorted out and life gets back to normality but very much looking forward to a slightly different lifestyle.

 

[Caol Ila]

I've been on lovely yards, including my current one. And I've never been so appreciative. But my point in my post a couple days ago was that I've been on yards where horse ownership became Type II or III fun due to wacko behaviour of yard owner, and that's not uncommon. Basically, all I ask is that you don't act like a douchebag. Or take blood samples from my horse without telling me.

 

[MissMay]

I'm based in Ireland and there seems to be a huge cost difference.
Around me DIY does not exist ite full livery or field
The closest yard to me is always full- loads of land, full cross country course, 3 arenas, wash bays, onsite riding school riding club and pony club so quite popular with the 'social' rider not super competitive and does weekly shows in the summer so provides alot for people. in the late 90s early 00s field livery was cheap for the area at 110 a week and full was 200. this did not include lessons, farrier or vet but did include shavings, feed and hay. plenty of forest hacking and a yard truck would go to local shows and do maybe 2/3 runs to each one costing 20e a head. Very very popular and still is.

Another yard was just livery only stables with summer fields. in the winter horses were put on walker and you rode, a small enough arena with full rubber surface so quite deep didnt suit my horse at all, and yard to forest hacking with no road. this cost 110 a week for your stable anything extra was you provided

most around here seem to be minimum 100 a week and that is absolute basic basic

 

[chocolategirl]

YOs - just curious - do you work out your costs (fixed and variable) for each stable - how do you calculate your prices?

When I started about 23 years ago, we were fortunate enough to already own the land (family farm), and the buildings. My husband or his workers do all our maintenance etc, which keeps our costs down, though their time is paid for, so I basically back then, just rang round a few local livery yards, and based my price on the local market. I suppose I’m in a very unique position, though I’m sure there are others like me, that runs the yard as more of a hobby? I started it so I’d have company for myself, it’s no fun being on your own? I just intended to cover my costs, but over the years, I’ve upgraded my facilities considerably by using our own personal money. That was my choice ?‍

 

[Cortez]

I'm based in Ireland and there seems to be a huge cost difference.
Around me DIY does not exist ite full livery or field
The closest yard to me is always full- loads of land, full cross country course, 3 arenas, wash bays, onsite riding school riding club and pony club so quite popular with the 'social' rider not super competitive and does weekly shows in the summer so provides alot for people. in the late 90s early 00s field livery was cheap for the area at 110 a week and full was 200. this did not include lessons, farrier or vet but did include shavings, feed and hay. plenty of forest hacking and a yard truck would go to local shows and do maybe 2/3 runs to each one costing 20e a head. Very very popular and still is.

Another yard was just livery only stables with summer fields. in the winter horses were put on walker and you rode, a small enough arena with full rubber surface so quite deep didnt suit my horse at all, and yard to forest hacking with no road. this cost 110 a week for your stable anything extra was you provided

most around here seem to be minimum 100 a week and that is absolute basic basic

Yes, the UK does seem to have it's own unique livery "culture".

 

[Cortez]

When I started about 23 years ago, we were fortunate enough to already own the land (family farm), and the buildings. My husband or his workers do all our maintenance etc, which keeps our costs down, though their time is paid for, so I basically back then, just rang round a few local livery yards, and based my price on the local market. I suppose I’m in a very unique position, though I’m sure there are others like me, that runs the yard as more of a hobby? I started it so I’d have company for myself, it’s no fun being on your own? I just intended to cover my costs, but over the years, I’ve upgraded my facilities considerably by using our own personal money. That was my choice ?‍

Far from being unique, from what I've seen I think an awful lot of livery "businesses" are in fact hobbies.....

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes, the UK does seem to have it's own unique livery "culture".

Aye, I agree with that. While the US has its fair share of crazy and dysfunctional barns, the culture is a lot different. There are very few DIY barns and many barns where people are in a 'program' with a trainer. To board at that barn, you need to be in lessons and your horse needs to be in training with that trainer. I've never boarded at such a barn because I didn't fancy being in anyone's 'program' to that extent, but those places are everywhere. You can imagine the morass that can be associated with that. Lots of politics between trainers and clients, and no shortage of ambitious and unethical trainers who do things like encourage clients to buy talented horses who are really pro rides, and when the client ends up overhorsed, guess who gets to ride and show a fancy horse?

The US barns where I kept my horse worked a lot like the Irish barn MissMay described.

 

[VioletStripe]

Wave! There are a few of us knocking about. I’m north London and tend to be Herts based where the horse is concerned.

Haha hello! Same here - always nice to 'meet' other London riders