Why are there no good livery yards?

sport horse said:
The title of this thread is 'Why are there no good livery yards'. There are several Yard Owners who have come on here and quite honestly, explained why they no longer offer livery services.

Has anyone taken any notice? No. The YO's have been criticised and told that heir attitude suggests they are best out of the business. Actually we are out of the business!

Maybe, just maybe, that is why some of you cannot find 'good livery yards'?
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There are nutters in all industries, in all walks of life. A fair proportion of yard owners are mad as a box of frogs, as are a fair proportion of livery customers.
But nutters abound in my industry (Higher Education) too - I have the skills to manage them so have a happy and untroubled life.

If you don't have the people skills to either manage liveries (if you are a YO) to keep them happy, or if you are a livery and lack the skills to manage a YO ;) then perhaps avoiding human interactions is best for you. This may also apply to discussions on HHO. :D

I could buy somewhere to keep my two - but I can't be bothered with the hassle of managing land, repairing stuff. I have other fish to fry. So I pay for livery, and I observe the nutters from a safe distance, staying on good terms with the ones with some vestiges of self-control/sanity if I can. :D
 
bluehorse said:
But how do you actually know this for a fact? Unless you know every single horse owner in the UK, you’re making assumptions!
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She didn't say every single horse owner. My experience is of livery yards as a customer, there are some very selfish, untrustworthy people on them, that will quite happily steal feed, hay, use things that are not theirs and tell lies about their own and other peoples horses. This doesn't even go in to the poor practices that goes on, which borders on abuse. Even if they paid me I wouldn't unless absolutely forced have anything to do with them, so why would I want them on my property?
There are now a lot of us that have worked hard have a yard and maintain it, who have just decided its not worth the hassle. I have a lodger, he pays me almost five times what one livery would give me in a week, he pays for my extra help and is honestly no trouble. He probably uses less water as well.
 
I have not read all the posts but I think I am very lucky. My yard is probably run a bit unconventionally but it seems to work for both the owner and the liveries. It is owned by a knowledgeable horse owner with a farming background. She provides the fields, the stabling, individual storage space and an outdoor school. The owners pay for individual fields, many with a field shelter, some with a stable. The fencing is mostly run down old stock fencing and we all provide our own electric fencing, maintain our fields, organise and pay for muck heap removal, and hay and straw deliveries. It never advertises and I got in through a friend who was already there. We also have direct access to miles of off road riding and the owner is a consummate diplomat who mostly leaves us to our own devices. Many of the unused farm buildings are very run down but the essentials get done on the ones that need to be safe and water tight. Not a pretty yard but a fabulous one. It can be done but it needs a very cost cutting approach and a lot of common sense and good will from all parties. Happy horses do not need solariums, drying rooms and horse walkers. Everybody here rides and many compete. I guess the set-up would probably put off the average novice owner though. You would not fare well if you did not know a fair bit about horse and land management.
 
Can i
bluehorse said:
But how do you actually know this for a fact? Unless you know every single horse owner in the UK, you’re making assumptions!

Edited to add, having had a further thought:

So is the problem then just that more expensive yards can’t compete with cheaper ones? Given that we seem to have established that cheap does not necessarily mean bad (either full or diy), providing welfare standards are in place and the cheap yard meets the owners needs? If it’s got everything required why wouldn’t the cheaper yards win the business? That‘s just normal competition isn’t it?
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This is WHY there are so many bad, cheap yards in operation! Because while people will moan constantly, they won’t always move, because it’s cheap! My yard which I’ve been running for about 23 years, is DIY with optional assistance. My weekly rate for me to actually make even a small profit would need to be at least double what I charge, but I can’t charge that because I have so many other yards in the area, some good, some ok, some awful. I do everything by the book, insurance, weed killers, fencing replaced every few years, electrics done properly, Fields well maintained, the list is endless. My insurance alone varies from £1500 to £2k per annum. With only 20 liveries paying £30 per week, you do the maths?‍♀️The competition is tough. I do it as a bit of fun though tbh, though it isn’t always fun, and our other businesses prop my livery up considerably. I’m basically funding my clients hobby, and I’ll continue to do so until I don’t want to anymore?‍♀️
 
The most expensive DIY yard in my area is all singing all dancing, BHS highly commended, good facilities, off road hacking really really looks the business... but is one of the worst yards to be on in so many ways because the YO is awful. Changes the rules as often as the wind, refers to liveries using the C word, kicks people off for nothing (e.g. asking to move stables, parking once in the wrong place, going to look at other yards).

There is a waiting list but people are rarely waiting more than a few months because the turnover of liveries is so high. It’s so easy to fall for the place because it could be pretty much perfect, but people soon realise what the YO is like and leave. Some people don’t even stay a month. YO sees no issue because there is always someone to replace them, even if they don’t stay long either.

I would happily pay more for my yard because it is the best balance of what I need for my boy that I have found. More grazing would be nice, but we manage and are largely left to get on with it.
 
Aha! Chocolategirl has hit the nail on the head: what you are doing is not "running a livery yard", you are conducting a hobby. This is of course absolutely your prerogative, but if people want a professional service there are two things that must be in place: firstly a professional attitude, from both the service providers AND the people availing of that service. The second thing that must be in place is a viable business structure, which means costing and charging to enable the service to be provided.

Can anybody tell me, are livery yards subject to rates or council tax? Are they classed as businesses?
 
chocolategirl said:
Can i

This is WHY there are so many bad, cheap yards in operation! Because while people will moan constantly, they won’t always move, because it’s cheap! My yard which I’ve been running for about 23 years, is DIY with optional assistance. My weekly rate for me to actually make even a small profit would need to be at least double what I charge, but I can’t charge that because I have so many other yards in the area, some good, some ok, some awful. I do everything by the book, insurance, weed killers, fencing replaced every few years, electrics done properly, Fields well maintained, the list is endless. My insurance alone varies from £1500 to £2k per annum. With only 20 liveries paying £30 per week, you do the maths?‍♀️The competition is tough. I do it as a bit of fun though tbh, though it isn’t always fun, and our other businesses prop my livery up considerably. I’m basically funding my clients hobby, and I’ll continue to do so until I don’t want to anymore?‍♀️
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To be fair I have no time for moaners myself, if you don’t like it somewhere move. Or shut up! £30 is ridiculously cheap for good DIY, I haven’t paid that for years. I can do the maths and can’t understand why you’re paying to support your liveries but don’t put up your prices? Surely you can’t afford not to? Even if you lost a few, you wouldn’t lose them all. Genuinely puzzled....I wouldn’t do it. It’s up to you of course to set your rates and decide what your worth is, but you can’t blame liveries for a competitive market, which it clearly is in your area.
 
I used to pay £55 a week for DIY with allegedly ad lib hay with what should be a lovely indoor. It was ad lib but in the summer you weren’t allowed to feed it in the field. The school surface wasn’t maintained so whilst the yard owner had spent a lot on it, it deteriorated quickly. They currently have no water on the yard and are having to bring water from home. No reduction in the rate.

I’m no longer there as moved out of the area, I probably would go back as the people are lovely and there was 24/7 turnout and £55 was a bargain if the yard delivered what it advertises... but it didn’t always.
 
Cortez said:
Aha! Chocolategirl has hit the nail on the head: what you are doing is not "running a livery yard", you are conducting a hobby. This is of course absolutely your prerogative, but if people want a professional service there are two things that must be in place: firstly a professional attitude, from both the service providers AND the people availing of that service. The second thing that must be in place is a viable business structure, which means costing and charging to enable the service to be provided.

Can anybody tell me, are livery yards subject to rates or council tax? Are they classed as businesses?
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Rates are a bit varied depending on area, smaller yards qualify for small business rate relief but the bigger ones and those that the council suddenly decide to hit will pay the same rates per square ft as the big supermarkets do, the rates on a fully rated indoor are crippling and if you have a barn used as stabling they will charge for the whole not just the boxes.
A small newly opened and fairly good RS/ livery yard closed almost overnight when they were told the rates for the next 12 months were going to be £30k, memory may be wrong but that figure came to mind, I doubt she was turning over £50k a year so had no option but to shut what was going to be a very much needed local facility.
 
Looking at this as a business person (as I generally do), if people were to charge a truly viable rate for livery, possibly the majority of horse owners that currently keep their horses at livery would not be able to continue to do so.

When I was a kid (50+ years ago), pretty much everyone who had a pony was either a farmer's child or from a really well-off family.
 
skint1 said:
Exactly this. I don't know what their costs are, and I certainly wouldn't expect someone to subsidise my hobby or go to a yard and then spend the whole time complaining about the facilities or the costs either, you pays your money and makes your choice :)
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Buy very often you pay your money and find out that what you were told when looking bat the yard and reserving your space that all day grazing all year round means if we're not too busy to turn out, if we're going to a show, if we're clipping, going shopping or basically can't be bothered. Your full livery is we take the poo off the top and put fresh straw on top and your horse gets fresh water when the owner turns up. I certainly will pay for a good service more than happy too but want what I have been told happens.
 
sport horse said:
The title of this thread is 'Why are there no good livery yards'. There are several Yard Owners who have come on here and quite honestly, explained why they no longer offer livery services.

Has anyone taken any notice? No. The YO's have been criticised and told that heir attitude suggests they are best out of the business. Actually we are out of the business!

Maybe, just maybe, that is why some of you cannot find 'good livery yards'?
Click to expand...

No, you have come on here to remind everyone that you are so fabulously well off that you don't need to sully yourself with the buying or selling of livery services

Which is lovely, I'm really pleased for you

But it doesn't add anything to the debate of why such a completely unregulated industry exists with serious implications for animal welfare

My wish list consists of daily turnout, ad lib roughage, somewhere to ride, no crazies...that's it!

I'm lucky with where I am now and Ive been at some lovely places in the past but I've also been at some terrible places where I've been beaten, my horses beaten, little to no turnout, severely rationed food, filthy beds, viruses running unchecked, rotten haylage, barefaced lies...honestly the list goes on

It would never be allowed to happen in children's nurseries or similar place of care of the vulnerable
 
Frumpoon said:
No, you have come on here to remind everyone that you are so fabulously well off that you don't need to sully yourself with the buying or selling of livery services

Which is lovely, I'm really pleased for you

But it doesn't add anything to the debate of why such a completely unregulated industry exists with serious implications for animal welfare

My wish list consists of daily turnout, ad lib roughage, somewhere to ride, no crazies...that's it!

I'm lucky with where I am now and Ive been at some lovely places in the past but I've also been at some terrible places where I've been beaten, my horses beaten, little to no turnout, severely rationed food, filthy beds, viruses running unchecked, rotten haylage, barefaced lies...honestly the list goes on

It would never be allowed to happen in children's nurseries or similar place of care of the vulnerable
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Perhaps owners should take more responsibility for the animals' welfare and remove them from anywhere that doesn't provide what the horse needs. I do wonder why you have left yards which were lovely places, although, of course, I have of idea of your personal circumstances. We spent 8 yrs at one yard, had a break, then spent 6 weeks at a new yard, which was not safely fenced it turned out and moved to a yard where we spent 10 years until buying our own place, via a friend's farm for 3 months.
 
If the industry was regulated, which was considered at one time, it would cost a fortune to run, probably have a set of rules in place that would make numerous places give up as they could never hope to put in some of the criteria that would be set, a lot of that would be mainly for human H&S and have little bearing on animal welfare or their needs, the price of livery would rocket to cover the costs and fill the gaps and meanwhile the back yard yards would continue hidden away.
I don't think there is any comparison to childcare or care homes which are charging fees well over any livery yard, even doggy day care is bringing in far more, although that is regulated there are still problems with some.

Owners do not have to ignore welfare issues, most are visiting regularly, if not daily, so can move on if they are concerned and do not forget it may be some owners that are not taking the best care of their horses and the YO may be trying to improve the way they care for them, there is often two sides to a story.
 
Frumpoon said:
No, you have come on here to remind everyone that you are so fabulously well off that you don't need to sully yourself with the buying or selling of livery services

Which is lovely, I'm really pleased for you

But it doesn't add anything to the debate of why such a completely unregulated industry exists with serious implications for animal welfare

My wish list consists of daily turnout, ad lib roughage, somewhere to ride, no crazies...that's it!

I'm lucky with where I am now and Ive been at some lovely places in the past but I've also been at some terrible places where I've been beaten, my horses beaten, little to no turnout, severely rationed food, filthy beds, viruses running unchecked, rotten haylage, barefaced lies...honestly the list goes on

It would never be allowed to happen in children's nurseries or similar place of care of the vulnerable
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When it was a just farmer who rented out a converted shed and spare land there seems to have been less complaints. In 1979 when I got my first horse livery was about £5 a week for just that, and I earned £25 a week. The £5 livery is now equal to £25, but the cost of land and homes have gone up. Our first home in 1979 cost £9,450, one on roughly the same road is £140,000.

So in terms of wages and the cost of land livery has not gone up that much. In 1979 you paid a flat rate for water, now unless you are very lucky you pay for what you use. My water bill is about £350 a quarter. My insurance bill for my land and buildings is more than my house.
So if you want the every service on a livery yard you should expect to pay for it, if you want to everything regulated that is really good, but there will be costs involved. Unless there continue to be farmers that run a livery business alongside their farming enterprise, they can make forage and buy it in at trade prices I do not see how cheap livery can continue , it is not viable for the majority of most small landowners. There is not enough money in it, and I would want to be working for more than than £125 a week.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Perhaps owners should take more responsibility for the animals' welfare and remove them from anywhere that doesn't provide what the horse needs. I do wonder why you have left yards which were lovely places, although, of course, I have of idea of your personal circumstances. We spent 8 yrs at one yard, had a break, then spent 6 weeks at a new yard, which was not safely fenced it turned out and moved to a yard where we spent 10 years until buying our own place, via a friend's farm for 3 months.
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But that's the point isn't it, if the alternative is just more of the same then where do you move them to?

I've left lovely places for lots of different reasons - being a child at the time, relocating for work, having horses at 2 yards not being feasible, horse not settling at a large, busy yard, another horse dying...etc etc
 
honetpot said:
When it was a just farmer who rented out a converted shed and spare land there seems to have been less complaints. In 1979 when I got my first horse livery was about £5 a week for just that, and I earned £25 a week. The £5 livery is now equal to £25, but the cost of land and homes have gone up. Our first home in 1979 cost £9,450, one on roughly the same road is £140,000.

So in terms of wages and the cost of land livery has not gone up that much. In 1979 you paid a flat rate for water, now unless you are very lucky you pay for what you use. My water bill is about £350 a quarter. My insurance bill for my land and buildings is more than my house.
So if you want the every service on a livery yard you should expect to pay for it, if you want to everything regulated that is really good, but there will be costs involved. Unless there continue to be farmers that run a livery business alongside their farming enterprise, they can make forage and buy it in at trade prices I do not see how cheap livery can continue , it is not viable for the majority of most small landowners. There is not enough money in it, and I would want to be working for more than than £125 a week.
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Hay and straw hasn't gone up either, when I had my horse 25 years ago a small bale of hay was £5 and straw was £2.50, it's exactly the same now except land has gone by 10x value, perhaps more and diesel by 4p a litre I think?
 
Frumpoon said:
Hay and straw hasn't gone up either, when I had my horse 25 years ago a small bale of hay was £5 and straw was £2.50, it's exactly the same now except land has gone by 10x value, perhaps more and diesel by 4p a litre I think?
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I have only recently paid £5 for a small bale of hay although I use big bales so rarely buy any small ones, straw has been fairly level in price for years but other bedding has gone up a huge amount.
Fuel prices have risen rather more than 4p a litre, they have dropped dramatically recently but in 1995 a litre of petrol was on average just under 51p, hardly a 4p increase in 25 years.
 
Gingerwitch said:
Buy very often you pay your money and find out that what you were told when looking bat the yard and reserving your space that all day grazing all year round means if we're not too busy to turn out, if we're going to a show, if we're clipping, going shopping or basically can't be bothered. Your full livery is we take the poo off the top and put fresh straw on top and your horse gets fresh water when the owner turns up. I certainly will pay for a good service more than happy too but want what I have been told happens.
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Ah yes, this is a good point, I was thinking of DIY people mainly, who look around a yard, get told what the deal on that yard is, move to the yard and then moan like hell about it being exactly as described when they moved in. Had one recently at our yard who thought they were going to get the YO to build them a shed as there wasn't enough room in the tack room for their stuff, the YO never would do that because for a start the rest of us would feel a bit aggreived!

I know you had a bad experience at your full livery last yard, I thought the way they handled the lockdown was appallingly unfair too. I think full livery must be very hard, you have to put so much trust into the person doing it.
 
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be positive said:
I have only recently paid £5 for a small bale of hay although I use big bales so rarely buy any small ones, straw has been fairly level in price for years but other bedding has gone up a huge amount.
Fuel prices have risen rather more than 4p a litre, they have dropped dramatically recently but in 1995 a litre of petrol was on average just under 51p, hardly a 4p increase in 25 years.
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Sorry I meant 40p a litre
 
be positive said:
If the industry was regulated, which was considered at one time, it would cost a fortune to run, probably have a set of rules in place that would make numerous places give up as they could never hope to put in some of the criteria that would be set, a lot of that would be mainly for human H&S and have little bearing on animal welfare or their needs, the price of livery would rocket to cover the costs and fill the gaps and meanwhile the back yard yards would continue hidden away.
I don't think there is any comparison to childcare or care homes which are charging fees well over any livery yard, even doggy day care is bringing in far more, although that is regulated there are still problems with some.

Owners do not have to ignore welfare issues, most are visiting regularly, if not daily, so can move on if they are concerned and do not forget it may be some owners that are not taking the best care of their horses and the YO may be trying to improve the way they care for them, there is often two sides to a story.
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This is so true.

Time was given in Parliament a few years ago and the Livery Act bill was partially written, it did get quite a good way through the system before falling off the edge as other business took over.

If livery yards were licensed along the lines of riding school legislation and using the Animal Welfare (activities involving animals) 2018 Act, the average cost would be circa £1000.00 for a one year licence. An application fee, followed by an inspection fee with the inspection being done either by a listed vet or an experienced licensing officer, followed by the licence fee itself. The premises would then be randomly visited during the life of the licence which would be between 1 and 3 years. If standards were high enough to achieve a longer licence the costs would go up to near £1800.

I am expecting livery yard licensing to be revisited when DEFRA have to review the 2018 Act, dog walking businesses will also be looked at.

I would welcome livery yard licensing, it would help yard owners who want to operate well and it would also close down the bin end yards with bedsteads for fencing.
 
bluehorse said:
To be fair I have no time for moaners myself, if you don’t like it somewhere move. Or shut up! £30 is ridiculously cheap for good DIY, I haven’t paid that for years. I can do the maths and can’t understand why you’re paying to support your liveries but don’t put up your prices? Surely you can’t afford not to? Even if you lost a few, you wouldn’t lose them all. Genuinely puzzled....I wouldn’t do it. It’s up to you of course to set your rates and decide what your worth is, but you can’t blame liveries for a competitive market, which it clearly is in your area.
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We make our own forage that’s how I do it?‍♀️ To put it plainly though, if I have a client who uses shavings and doesn’t use my services, they would actually be costing me to be on my yard. If they’re buying my hay/straw and using my services, I can justify having them. I could put my prices up considerably and I know I would lose quite a few as there are so many cheaper yards in my area, however, if I were to go below a certain number, I would have to close as my insurance would still be the same up to a certain threshold ? I’m not blaming my liveries, not sure why you think this? It’s my choice, I’m not blaming anyone ?
 
Just to cheer some of you up, I had yet another 'drive by' popping into my yard this evening to enquire about DIY livery.
This time I said, 'of course I have space, cost is £15 per day'. Enquirer looked at me as if I was a nutter and said, surely you mean a week? Nope I replied, I've decided to come in line with inflation, I was charging £25 per week in 1995, so have put an increase in as that was 25 years ago. Still cheaper than putting a dog in day care
She told me I wouldnt get anyone, so I smiled cheerfully and said, 'how lovely' :)

I hope you are all proud of me :)
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
Just to cheer some of you up, I had yet another 'drive by' popping into my yard this evening to enquire about DIY livery.
This time I said, 'of course I have space, cost is £15 per day'. Enquirer looked at me as if I was a nutter and said, surely you mean a week? Nope I replied, I've decided to come in line with inflation, I was charging £25 per week in 1995, so have put an increase in as that was 25 years ago. Still cheaper than putting a dog in day care
She told me I wouldnt get anyone, so I smiled cheerfully and said, 'how lovely' :)

I hope you are all proud of me :)
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I bet she would think nothing of paying £15.00 a day for boarding her dog though.
 
I think the point that the YOs on this thread are missing is - many liveries are actually willing to pay a reasonable rate for facilities and services, which would enable the business to make a profit. We don't expect people to break even or run at a loss.

However, very often we move to a yard on the strength of the facilities and services offered when we view - only to find out that they were mis-sold/oversold.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I bet she would think nothing of paying £15.00 a day for boarding her dog though.
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I didn't ask.
I'm baffled as to how many random enquiries I've had recently tho, will have to ask around locally.
I think I'll use the same words again tho, saved a lot of discussion :)
 
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