Why Breed?

[Ample Prosecco]

Amber has not scanned in foal despite multiple attempts. And the lovely and highly experienced vet at the stud is suggesting I perhaps stop after this final attempt. It has led me to start questioning why I want Amber's foal, specifically. I love Amber and a foal from her just feels right somehow. But actually I have realised I don't just want a foal from a loved mare, I also want a foal because I want to raise a horse from scratch. I have loved reading MilliePop's updates about Hera and I can't imagine the satisfaction of being able to produce a happy, confident, well rounded horse.

But I don't just want to go out and get a weanling either. I've had a yearling shetland and that was a fab experience and the pony turned out to be a perfect LR/FR now teaching her 10th or so child!! But now I want the full mare/foal experience. Including foaling down at my own yard and spending weeks foal watching. So I suddenly thought well what about Dolly? She's a 14.2 Connie and a Connie Tb X would be pretty special! And Dolly has a temperament to die for. As Dolly is going to be tied up competing all next season, I could use Amber as the recipient mare for embryo transfer. Then I get to have Amber at home with 'her' foal after all. Tbh a Dolly foal is far more likely to be rideable by the likes of me than an Amber one anyway. And I do adore Dolly.

Had a chat to the vet we are already using who is at the forefront of embryo transfer in the UK and he says Amber would be ideal as a nice roomy recipient mare. And my own vet is a fan because he prefers mares who are still competing to be bred from rather than ones who have broken. So that's my idea for next year if Amber does not take this last time. Am I crazy?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think this could be a good plan. I don't know about using a mare who can't conceive on her own as a recipient though. But I do think Dolly would be worth breeding for your next personal horse.

 

[TheMule]

I personally think you're crazy for considering using a mare who can’t conceive as a recipient, yes! The principle of what you want to do is entirely logical, but please use a sound breeding mare, it is blooming expensive and tricky to do at the best of times (have done it twice)

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes, though I'm sure the whole foaling down experience is much more fun when you planned on it and the mare doesn't become a feral tiger mother after she foals. On the other hand, I really like my foal, and being able to handle him from the get-go is pretty cool.

Are there any risks with embryo transfer that you wouldn't otherwise have with putting a mare in foal the traditional way? Will it cost an arm and six legs? Is it better, safer, or more likely to succeed if you use a mare who isn't maiden as the transferee? Are there reasons more people don't do it? Because it obviously means that the mare doesn't have time off work/competing so the advantages are clear. But I've only ever read about it being done for international-level competition horses.

I'm asking because I don't know the answers to those questions! But if I were going to do it, those are the questions I would have.

 

[Skib]

, I could use Amber as the recipient mare for embryo transfer.

I am not a horse person. We watch a lot of High Goal Polo and embryo transfer is used so that the best mares can continue to play.
What is normal in the equestrian world may not be so comfortable for ordinary public. I hated being pregnant and felt quite bad about the non playing mares forced to gestate foals not their own. But it is said that in Argentina they clone star polo mares.
I dont imagie you have thought of cloning Amber?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I personally think you're crazy for considering using a mare who can’t conceive as a recipient, yes! The principle of what you want to do is entirely logical, but please use a sound breeding mare, it is blooming expensive and tricky to do at the best of times (have done it twice)

I asked the vet that and he said that not being able to conceive naturally does not mean she can't be a recipient. My initial thought was that was a silly plan. But he says not! John Newcombe if you know him?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Will it cost an arm and six legs?

Probably. There is nothing financially sounds about this plan at all! My non existent foal has already cost more than Dolly did. And Amber for that matter.
I don't know. Perhaps I am romanticising the whole thing but I am just desperate for a foal from a loved mare. Or maybe a mare with foal at foot. I adore that fluffy baby on out yard. I want one!! And one from a loved mare would be the icing on the cake I think.

 

[TheMule]

Have you done a uterine biopsy?
What does she do post insemination- does she pool fluid?
I cannot imagine any ET center accepting a mare who hasn’t managed to conceive her own foal. It just strikes me as totally bonkers- you can take embryos out of mares struggling to conceive due to a hostile uterus, but I have absolutely never heard of doing it the other way round

 

[splashgirl45]

sounds like a good plan as long as amber will be ok. dont forget foaling can be risky to both mare and foal so you need to think long and hard whether it is right for her...i bought a 15month old filly many years ago and found that very rewarding as i backed her myself and did everything with the aid of books and lots of luck. i bought her because i had tried to get my other mare in foal and it didnt work so i decided that if nature didnt work i would buy..this was many years ago before AI and all of the current technology.

 

[Caol Ila]

The BOGOF at your yard has made you broody!

I was super freaked out right before Hermosa foaled and catastrophised every horrible complication I read about on the internet.

Here's another crazy idea. Could you buy a broodmare? I occasionally see nice mares advertised as "in-foal to whoever." It wouldn't be a foal out of your beloved mare, but you would get the foaling experience and a fluffy baby.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I need to have more conversations clearly!

But anyway, I have options and I am not giving up on my dream quite yet..... Wouldn't a Dolly foal be gorgeous though! My YO used to breed from her competition mares if she didn't really click with them. But she discoverd that no matter how nice the stallion, if she didn't get on with the mare, she didn't get on with the foal either. She thinks people have focused too much on stallions and the mare is very influential over the temperament of the foal.

But I am totally new to this world so lots to learn.

Mule, everything looks fine before, during and after. Just no foal at the end of it. He said investigations would add up very quickly especially as they are no clues as to where to start and with mares like this he tends to advise just accepting it won't happen.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

You can also do a brood mare lease.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

The BOGOF at your yard has made you broody!
.

I was broody way before that. But that tiny fluffball certainly didn't help.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I dont think you're crazy

I think the idea of having a Dolly foal sounds ideal; she's a pony you think a lot of and she's stood up to work.

Honestly though if it was me, I wouldnt risk my loved mare especially if shes struggling to conceive herself. So I'd look at buying or loaning a recipient broodmare.

 

[TheMule]

I need to have more conversations clearly!

But anyway, I have options and I am not giving up on my dream quite yet..... Wouldn't a Dolly foal be gorgeous though! My YO used to breed from her competition mares if she didn't really click with them. But she discoverd that no matter how nice the stallion, if she didn't get on with the mare, she didn't get on with the foal either. She thinks people have focused too much on stallions and the mare is very influential over the temperament of the foal.

But I am totally new to this world so lots to learn.

Mule, everything looks fine before, during and after. Just no foal at the end of it. He said investigations would add up very quickly especially as they are no clues as to where to start and with mares like this he tends to advise just accepting it won't happen.

Before deciding whether to use her you absolutely need a uterine biopsy- it's simple to do and not an expensive test. The most common reason for mares not taking if timing is spot on and management post-insemination (IE flushes, fluid protocol with oxytocin) is due to the uterus and that is obviously the most important part if you want to transfer an embryo in.

 

[Caol Ila]

Hermosa wants to sign up. She's convinced she wants to be a 1950s housewife, barefoot and pregnant and raising babies. We slightly divested her of that notion today.

Seriously, a broodmare lease isn't stupid. Knowing nothing about this, I would be worried about a maiden mare who struggles to concieve having a complication-free pregnancy and producing a healthy foal, even with someone else's egg. That's based on what I've seen with humans doing more or less the same thing. Don't know how it applies to horses. But worth doing more research for sure.

 

[milliepops]

Honestly though if it was me, I wouldnt risk my loved mare especially if shes struggling to conceive herself. So I'd look at buying or loaning a recipient broodmare.

My non expert opinion would be similar to this, its sort of nature telling you it's not meant to be with amber. Plus you don't want to be struggling to keep a pregnancy viable even if she does take a transfer successfully. It's stressful enough with a totally normal pregnancy ??? amazing but the most stressful thing I've ever been a part of.

 

[TheMule]

Sorry if I sounds very negative, but it is one of those procedures you must minimize every potential risk with!

My 2 ET babies with their amazing recipient mum who took first time with both ️

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Aw gorgeous Mule. I will absolutely not take unnecessary risks so thanks for all the advice. Sound like I need to find myself a broodmare!

 

[Xmasha]

Have you tried a different stallion ? Sometimes some stallions just don’t suit some mares .. and a change can make all the difference.

Failing that I’d echo what TM says and would get her uterus checked .

 

[splashgirl45]

just been on facebook and seen two foals looking for mums as theirs have passed away....strange that this came up now....

 

[tda]

Definitely agree that the mare is (I think) the major part of the partnership!
Sorry of I've missed it, but is there a reason she can't be live covered?

I'm trying to get a much loved pony in foal by AI, first attempt failed, round 2 starts this week. She has had foals before when she lived in a herd but will not entertain our stallion at all

I imagine embryo transfer will be very expensive, but if you can afford it then you might as well go for sexed semen too ??

 

[honetpot]

It sounds a very expensive option. I had a successful AI for my mare, that cost fair amount, but you are cycling two mares, so its got to be double the cost, at least, then the foal has to go to term. I would want to very sure the recipient mare was capable of doing this.
At one point I had three brood mares, all who had offspring graded, or with BE/BS points, no matter how well put together, or good the mare is the, stallion is the seller, only nerds like me look up the mares history. I have bought usually when they are about twelve months, and it's a lot easier than breeding them, and I loved my mares

 

[JJS]

On a different note, have you tried live cover with Amber, OP?

 

[ihatework]

I think a Dolly foal sounds like a far more sensible suggestion than an Amber foal.

Embryo transfer into Amber sounds like a romantic notion. It also sounds like a potentially expensive and disappointing dream. But if it does happen easily then could be a great option.

I think you need to work with the vet to narrow down why Amber isn’t taking? So it would be worth testing the mare a bit more. Asking the difficult questions about stallions semen and strike rate. It could be something like she is reacting to the semen/extender and might be better natural. Or I’ve seen some mares not compatible with one stallion immediately take to another.

So it’s not that she couldn’t be a recipient, but she would be higher risk for failure imo and it’s a spendy process

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks. We’ve tried 2 stallions with very high strike rates. I’ll talk to vet again and natural cover remains an untried option x

 

[Xmasha]

Thanks. We’ve tried 2 stallions with very high strike rates. I’ll talk to vet again and natural cover remains an untried option x

In that case then take a step back and ask your vet to do the biopsy of the uterus. It’s all too easy to get caught up in the moment desperately trying to get a mare in foal . I know I did it too . Cost me a small fortune . I then switched mares ( younger maiden , in fact it’s Ashas daughter ) and we caught first time .
As well as a drain on resources it can really emotionally drain you as well .

 

[ihatework]

Thanks. We’ve tried 2 stallions with very high strike rates. I’ll talk to vet again and natural cover remains an untried option x

Top repro unit, 2 stallions, multiple attempts. It’s pointing towards Amber being the cause. Which for me, increases the likelihood of failure for ET.
Why not wait and do this with either Dolly or your new one at an appropriate time in future. Both native types and will cross super with a Tb/Anglo

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I think you're right. I will have a foal one day but not just yet!

Does leave me with a dilemma about what to do with Amber though. On our yard there are large foaling boxes and individual turnout for mares and foals and Amber has a box and field. But if she is not in foal then she goes into normal turn out which is fine in summer (24/7) but just a 1-2 hours per day leg stretch in winter. Which was ok for Dolly and Toby in full work but no good for a retired, but still young horse. So I am now thinking along the lines of retirement livery. But that also means not having her at home. Id like her with me. But the yard isn't suitable. But is perfect for my horses in work. So really unsure what to do now.

 

[milliepops]

can you find somewhere for her to go just for the winter months? then have her back over the summers?

does she act up if not in work with limited turnout? i know it's not ideal but Darcy wintered with that kind of regime last year and was pretty relaxed about it. It's kind of the reason I've kept him going because while I'd prefer to have fewer horses, my other retirees would probably stiffen up with that amount of stabling