why buy branded feed?

Tilo said:
Its just a shame that the only company who do grass nuts that are less than 14% protein, is simple systems though. I would love to feed them, but the protein is too high for my old pony.
I feed Mollichaff, dare i admit!! No hard feeds, just the chaff that has added vits with no alfalfa.
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What problem does your pony have that makes 14% protein an issue?

I ask because there used to be a widely believed myth that high protein caused laminitis and if you've been told that, he may be safe with grass nuts after all??
 
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If anyone does molasses free alfa-a I'd love to know as I'm going through one bag every 20 days. I looked at our local own brand but second ingredient is molasses. Would have bought it otherwise. I will say though that he's only on that, speedi-beet and linseed and looks amazing. :0)
 
JillA said:
I suspect it would have to be extremely high for it to have that kind of effect?
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An equine nutritionist told me an average horse can only utilise 10-12%, any more than that and it has to be converted into urea putting unnecessary strain on liver and kidneys. Why choose to feed too much protein when you can choose to feed the correct amount instead?
 
minimilton said:
An equine nutritionist told me an average horse can only utilise 10-12%, any more than that and it has to be converted into urea putting unnecessary strain on liver and kidneys. Why choose to feed too much protein when you can choose to feed the correct amount instead?
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But that would be of the whole diet wouldn't it? Average across grass/forage and any concentrates and I doubt whether it would come anywhere near that. It is always difficult to work out totals and overall percentages unless you have a consistent hay/haylage and have it analysed - that is by far the highest proportion of what they eat, and as for grass - who knows how much they are getting on a daily basis? That's why it can be so hard to work out how much dry matter each is getting against the ideal, and why feeding can be more of an art than a science, IMHO.
Protein is essential to convert into amino acids to provide soft tissue and an effective immune system, I imagine there are quite wide parameters but I would always make sure they are getting sufficient, especially of lysine.
 
JillA said:
But that would be of the whole diet wouldn't it? Average across grass/forage and any concentrates and I doubt whether it would come anywhere near that. It is always difficult to work out totals and overall percentages unless you have a consistent hay/haylage and have it analysed - that is by far the highest proportion of what they eat, and as for grass - who knows how much they are getting on a daily basis? That's why it can be so hard to work out how much dry matter each is getting against the ideal, and why feeding can be more of an art than a science, IMHO.
Protein is essential to convert into amino acids to provide soft tissue and an effective immune system, I imagine there are quite wide parameters but I would always make sure they are getting sufficient, especially of lysine.
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Ok I understand what you're saying. Does that not make it more important to buy branded feeds that are sufficiently analysed to show the lysine content rather than buying an unbranded feed high in protein in the hope it has sufficient lysine? Any unbranded feeds I've bought have had the bare minimum of nutritional information on the bag. Or have I been throwing money down the drain on expensive feeds? The marketing departments probably love fools like me!
 
minimilton said:
Ok I understand what you're saying. Does that not make it more important to buy branded feeds that are sufficiently analysed to show the lysine content rather than buying an unbranded feed high in protein in the hope it has sufficient lysine? Any unbranded feeds I've bought have had the bare minimum of nutritional information on the bag. Or have I been throwing money down the drain on expensive feeds? The marketing departments probably love fools like me!
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I'd bet my bottom dollar that they've all got hte same things in them, because they are made by the same companies and then put into different bags. I can't believe that they change all their recipes going through the factories for a iimited run for one Farm Supplies shop :)

My understanding is the the vitamins and minerals that are added are bought from one supplier as a premix, and that all the feed companies use the same stuff, but that could be out of date information by now.
 
My feed shop only really does brand names. They have unbranded chaff and mix/cubes but I find the chaff is mainly chop with a hell of a lot of molasses through it which is no use. The cubes are okay but they are quite 'crummy' as such. Never bought the mix as not something I use but I'd imagine its mollassed and sticky as such.
 
With my poor-doer I fed unbranded horse and pony mix with her hi fi original, purely I was tired of buying branded feeds for extortionate prices - honestly the best thing I ever did!! She was calm, had no tummy upsets, she put on condition and it gave her a wonderful shine - much preferred it to the previous (very expensive) branded feed I used to use.

I tend to steer clear of own brand chaff though, as it often has absolutely loads of mollases in it - and my good doer who only gets a feed of chaff and herbs really doesnt need that much sugar and starch!
 
I've only recently started to feed my mare. For the best part of ten years she did everything with just a handful of chop and a few carrots (so she didn't feel left out when the others on the yard got fed :p). With just hay and grass she was still as lively as they come! Now I have to work a bit harder to keep condition on her so she gets a proper feed, but has unfortunately decided (after years of hankering after "proper" feed) that she is a super fussy eater! So I basically feed her whatever I can get her to eat that is low in sugar. Currently she is having a mixture of Coolstance copra and speedibeet. I've never really though about own brand feeds and I would certainly consider feeding them BUT tbh I am happy to pay a little extra for these two because they are both quick soaking. For some reason my mare tends to turn her nose up at soaked feeds that have been left for any length of time - my best chance of getting her to eat them seems to be to make with warm water then feed as soon as they have soaked for long enough. Plus she is SO fussy that I'm reluctant to change her feed now that I've *frantically touching wood* found something she will eat on a regular basis.
 
Of course you can remove the molasses in molassed s/b but you also remove the minerals, and to be honest, faffing about in the middle of winter with buckets of water twice a day is not much fun, also it is not consistent/scientific.
I spent a lot of time last year working on a diet for my boy who had been barefoot, and as mentioned elsewhere, it is the cost of the MINERALS which makes the difference.
Marketing costs particularly for branded feeds, add on the cost of research, analysis, and quality control, but what you find is that the volumes of feed recommended are often higher than most people feed, this in fact means that most horses are not getting the full recommended amounts of mins and vits.
So be sensible, get quick beet at 5% sugar, add water, add balanced minerals and add micronised linseed plus some good chaff [non molassed]
All I do is make up a mix of chaff and beet once a month, I use a scoop which contains 400 or 500 grams, add a scoop of linseed which contains 100 gms, and a scoop of minerals which contains 30 grams. Add water to make sure it is all soaked, and split in to two feeds. Time taken, 5 mins per day.
Minerals cost approx 45p per day [and that is top brands bought in bulk for 150 days] the linseed and the s/beet work out at 45-55 pence per day.
Since I stopped using cereals/wheatfeed as in bagged feeds, the skin is no longer itchy and the hair colour is dark and glossy all year round.
I dont ' feed as much in summer, but still provide a tiny feed, the coat colour does not wash out like it used to.
 
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MrsD123 said:
Of course you can remove the molasses in molassed s/b but you also remove the minerals, and to be honest, faffing about in the middle of winter with buckets of water twice a day is not much fun, also it is not consistent.
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It's completely consistent, I don't understand your point on that.

I'm not aware of what minerals are in sugar beet that are water soluble?

I don't feed it for anything but bulk and to damp down mineral supplements and brewers yeast, and for that purpose it's less than half the price of speedibeet.

I cannot feed a 17 hand ultra fit hunter the way you describe, he would end up a hatrack before half way through the season.

Horses for courses, eh?
 
cptrayes said:
It's completely consistent, I don't understand your point on that.

I'm not aware of what minerals are in sugar beet that are water soluble?

I don't feed it for anything but bulk and to damp down mineral supplements and brewers yeast, and for that purpose it's less than half the price of speedibeet.

I cannot feed a 17 hand ultra fit hunter the way you describe, he would end up a hatrack before half way through the season.

Horses for courses, eh?
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When Sugarbeet is processed Calcium is added to the mix to assist in clumping impurities, the resulting dried sugarbeet is high in Calcium.

I personally feel that draining the water off it probably doesn't remove much and as the horse is not receiving much in the way of grain feeds a calcium : Phosphorous inbalance should not be a problem.
 
Tnavas said:
When Sugarbeet is processed Calcium is added to the mix to assist in clumping impurities, the resulting dried sugarbeet is high in Calcium.

I personally feel that draining the water off it probably doesn't remove much and as the horse is not receiving much in the way of grain feeds a calcium : Phosphorous inbalance should not be a problem.
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Tnavas my understanding of calcium/phosphorus ratio is that provided the horse has sufficient phosphorous in its diet, an excess of calcium is not an issue. That is to say, too much phosphorus is an issue, too much calcium is not. Which is why it is safe to feed limestone flour, as many people in low calcium areas of the UK do.

Is this incorrect, in your view?

Secondly, if calcium is added to make impurities clump during sugar beet processing, then it will be on the outside of the beet shreds, since it is insoluble in water, and will be washed off if you soak to remove sugar.
 
cptrayes said:
Tnavas my understanding of calcium/phosphorus ratio is that provided the horse has sufficient phosphorous in its diet, an excess of calcium is not an issue. That is to say, too much phosphorus is an issue, too much calcium is not. Which is why it is safe to feed limestone flour, as many people in low calcium areas of the UK do.

Is this incorrect, in your view?

Secondly, if calcium is added to make impurities clump during sugar beet processing, then it will be on the outside of the beet shreds, since it is insoluble in water, and will be washed off if you soak to remove sugar.
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No worries about excess Calcium to a degree - but excessive feeding of Lucerne can cause stones to develop in the gut. But excess phosphorous is not good - causes a loss of bone density.

If the horse is on a no grain diet then the loss of the Calcium by rinsing the soaked sugarbeet is not a problem, however if the horse is on a grain based diet then the loss of the calcium would be a problem.

To be honest the amount of molasses in Sugarbeet is so minimal it should hardly be a problem to any horse - we used to feed it by the bucket load when I worked in UK with no ill effects. My Clydie was getting a litre jug daily (prior to soaking) which weighed very little. The amount of molasses is negligable.
 
The amount of sugar in sugar beet depends on the batch.

My research identified that the process stops extracting sugar when it has reached a certain concentration. So if the batch is a sweet one, the resulting sugar beet pulp is also sweeter. On top of that, they add molasses that turns it black.

Some batches can taste very sweet, and yes, I do taste it!

Many barefoot horses in the UK cannot tolerate the sugar levels in molassed sugar beet. I soak mine in summer because I have one, but I am too mean to buy speedibeet and my supplier will not stock unmolassed pellets.
 
cptrayes said:
The amount of sugar in sugar beet depends on the batch.

My research identified that the process stops extracting sugar when it has reached a certain concentration. So if the batch is a sweet one, the resulting sugar beet pulp is also sweeter. On top of that, they add molasses that turns it black.

Some batches can taste very sweet, and yes, I do taste it!

Many barefoot horses in the UK cannot tolerate the sugar levels in molassed sugar beet. I soak mine in summer because I have one, but I am too mean to buy speedibeet and my supplier will not stock unmolassed pellets.
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You are sooo lucky in UK - in NZ all the sugarbeet forms are the same expensive price because we have to import it from the Northern Hemisphere - all our sugar here in NZ comes from Sugar Cane.
 
I have to admit I do find this a bit funny. Feeding straights is completely fair enough, much cheaper and as long as you know what you're doing works just as well if not better, but anyone who thinks they are getting a 'big brand' for cheap from own brand suppliers is being fooled big time.

I know for a FACT that at the very least the big brand company I've had dealings with as an equine nutrition student makes the 'own brand' feed they sell to small suppliers in a completely different part of the factory, and uses all the low quality end of the raw ingredients they buy in to make these feeds - it's their way of selling off what isn't good enough for their own brand image but still making money off it. It doesn't need to meet GM restrictions, Laminitis Trust restrictions, or (importantly!) BETA restrictions, which is the control of Naturally Occurring Prohibited Substances stuff important for any horses competing at affiliated level, PC or RC competition. Also read the labels regarding the forms of the minerals etc - often less efficiently uptaken mineral forms are used as these are cheaper to produce.

Personally, I fed straights up until my current horse who has PSSM. With him, he needs a high oil diet, but being fussy won't touch linseed or oil in feed, plus won't eat enough beet or alfalfa chaff to meet his energy requirements. So I've resorted to a big brand racehorse pellet that is high oil but he can't taste it... and a balancer as I've been recommended high protein levels for his muscular problems by my vet and nutritionist, and I don't feed manufacturers recommendations of pellets. But I wouldn't touch cheap impersonations o it with a bargepole - at least I know that big manufacturers are super regulated, and nothing they say on the bag can be a false claim under BETA rules - I certainly wouldn't trust a plain bag of cubes that's for sure.
 
I found that branded feeds v unbranded feeds meant that the extra visual sparkle was lost in about 2 weeks. The only logical explanation is insufficient vits and balanced minerals.
Regarding feeding a fit horse in work, I stand by my barefoot diet, but more of the same. The micronised linseed will condition any horse, it is cheaper than supermarket oils and is less processed.
If it is not a good idea to feed a barefoot horse molassed feed, then I can 't see why a shod horse should be fed molassed nuts if we are talking fit horse in medium work. Though most ponies are only kept on maintenance in winter.
The only cereal I would use for the average fit horse is plain bruised oats, a traditional feed for hunters: not wheat, or wheat-feed which is a staple in most bagged feeds. Horses like oats, and they are still used in many racehorse stables for when they are in full work.
I have yet to see anyone else in the feed room weighing their ingredients, and none of them feed balanced minerals, though a variety of empty containers of all sorts of supplements are tried regularly, which suggests the owners are not happy with their existing feed or are tempted by the targeted marketing of the specialist supplement companies. Many of these supplements cost £1.00 per day, and they are used [or should be used] in addition to the basic mineral and vitamins required.
The main part of the diet is the forage, and very few horses will lose weight if fed good quality ad lib hay or haylage. I would certainly be worried if they did.
I agree that molassed nuts in the UK are less expensive than non molassed, but am not convinced that makes the argument for using it.
The bio availability of minerals is important , some are water soluble, as are some of the vitamins. Some of the cheaper magnesium sources are high in heavy metals, so it is vital to feed feeds which are of the highest quality , as over a horse's lifetime both in the short and in the long term this will make a big difference. Seaweed, once seen as a natural product full of vitamins and minerals, is now less popular as it is not balanced for horses, why should it be?
All I can say is that my horses always look better than anyone elses', I put this down to their diet and even in summer, I feed a small feed to carry the essentials, the feet grow 12 months of the year and it will be 3-6 months before the walls grow down to the ground.
The school horses are fed on soaked molassed s/beet and unbranded nuts. They are all in good working condition but their coats are all fairly dull, and what with health and safety, they won't be coming out of their boxes kicking and squealing on a frosty morning.
 
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I have always stuck to branded feeds, and will continue to do so, because I do think that "the big names" are more likely to worry about their reputation and therefore are more likely to be better on quality control.

However, whilst checking out a variety of feeds and supplements from well known companies over the last couple of years, I have been horrified by the discrepancy between details of the mineral analyses given on the websites, product labels and verbally over the phone from the company's nutritionists/representatives. Some word their literature in such a way that it is quite misleading.

For example, one well known company promotes the fact it uses organic selenium in its products, but when you look at the product label, it turns out that they use both organic AND inorganic. It would be very easy to assume that they used only organic from the way the promotional material is worded, but they aren't actually doing anything "wrong" by forgetting to mention that they also include inorganic.

Another told me they only use organic selenium. A year later, they said the formulation hadn't changed, and that they only use inorganic selenium!

Another gave incorrect figures on the product label. The amount of sodium selenite did not tie in with the amount of elemental selenium which they said the product contained. They apologised and said they'd change their label.

Another says on their website and over the phone that they use only organic selenium, but the label says it only includes selenium in the form of sodium selenite. They have been very helpful and confirmed that the label is wrong, and is being corrected for the next batch of product manufactured.

So, for me, I need to trust that the manufacturer is going to do the best they can to ensure that the right ingredients go into the product, and that their literature accurately reflects this. I accept that everyone makes mistakes, but I do still believe (rightly or wrongly) that the larger companies are likely to pay more attention to detail.

Sarah
 
That's an answer I can fully understand, FFF

mrsd 123. I could write exactly the same about my horses as you do about yours. They are shiny, bright eyed and bouncing with energy. Their feet grow in four to five months.

I take your point about oats, but they are terribly bulky and the horse I would need to feed them to takes an age to eat enough quantity. I'm not into going out to give him a third feed at bedtime, so I like to feed the more energy dense cubes.

I'm not sure that you understand how many calories a really fit 700 kilo horse like mine needs in the middle of the hunting season.
 
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Some parts of this thread are reading a bit barefoot talibanish. I'd just like to point out to the general reader that there are plenty of barefoot horses that do fine with commercial feeds. If people are struggling with footiness then they may need a stripped down diet or precise mineral balancing, but by no means do all of them.
 
Yep, well, I am used to the feeding of 500kg racehorses, who are about maintained at a similar level of fitness [eg pt to point], they do get fed three meals a day plus haylage, but I understand that one of the benefits of non molassed s/beet is the slow release of energy.
I dont want to "argue" but the energy dense cubes can 't really be more dense unless one is using oil, eg linseed meal!
signing off now.............
 
The argument that it costs less to feed straights only works if you buy branded cubes. I've tried oats and I have to feed the same weight, and the straight oats cost as much per kilo as my Farm Supplies cubes. My cubes are made locally by Lea Oakes and I think they are identical to the ones they sell branded as Equerry.

I did buy 'white bag' from another supplier once and I didn't feel the quality was as good. So perhaps, like in the supermarket, 'own brand' is fine if you know the source, but completely nameless is more inconsistent?
 
cptrayes said:
Some parts of this thread are reading a bit barefoot talibanish. I'd just like to point out to the general reader that there are plenty of barefoot horses that do fine with commercial feeds. If people are struggling with footiness then they may need a stripped down diet or precise mineral balancing, but by no means do all of them.
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I am sure I was not one of the Taliban, not against cubes, my point is that I used to feed the branded feeds and later I changed from cereal based diet to high fibre, with oil [linseed meal] and branded minerals, that the horse looks better, maintains condition and it is cheaper! My study of the diet was prompted partly by the barefoot business [no molasses] but also the cost.
It is noted that one poster uses branded foods because of the quality control, but has had problems with quality assurance!
 
MrsD123 said:
Yep, well, I am used to the feeding of 500kg racehorses, who are about maintained at a similar level of fitness [eg pt to point], they do get fed three meals a day plus haylage, but I understand that one of the benefits of non molassed s/beet is the slow release of energy.
I dont want to "argue" but the energy dense cubes can 't really be more dense unless one is using oil, eg linseed meal!
signing off now.............
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I will be using oil once we really get going. Supermarket rapeseed oil, added to his cubes.

You don't seem to understand mrsd, that I AM feeding unmolassed beet in spring and summer. The only difference is that I am prepared to soak it in masses more water than it needs and drain it before feeding. I do that because it costs one third of what it costs to buy the only unmolassed beet my supplier will stock.

Of course cubes can be more energy dense per kilo than straight oats. It depends a lot on the level of fibre and water.
 
MrsD123 said:
I am sure I was not one of the Taliban, not against cubes, my point is that I used to feed the branded feeds and later I changed from cereal based diet to high fibre, with oil [linseed meal] and branded minerals, that the horse looks better, maintains condition and it is cheaper! My study of the diet was prompted partly by the barefoot business [no molasses] but also the cost.
It is noted that one poster uses branded foods because of the quality control, but has had problems with quality assurance!
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I would also like to add that not all branded feeds are high cereals? That seems to be being assumed a bit here. I only switched to branded feed when I needed a low starch, low sugar feed for a fussy horse that wouldn't touch linseed or eat enough sugar beet. For example Winergy and Dengie are very much high fibre low starch, balancers are usually low in sugar and starch, feeds like Baileys Endurance Mix(I believe although haven't checked this one in a while) and Outshine, D&H Staypower Cubes or ERS Pellets, all are feeds I looked at for my PSSM horse, so would be suitable for a barefoot horse too I would imagine.

Personally I would always choose either to feed straights, or to feed a BETA approved branded feed, so I know what my horse is getting! Anyone selling you a white bag saying 'it's basically Bailey's No 4 for half the price' is blatantly lying to you - I've know how the big companies manufacture the feed they sell in white bags to small, own brand stockists and it is totally different!
 
Tnavas said:
Unfortunately your horse is most likely a victim of the Commercially Prepared feeds. Since the introduction of these feeds we've seen a maassive increase in the metabolic ailments that were rarely if ever seen 30 years ago.
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Tnavas said:
It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.
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My pony never used to get any feed at all in the summer and only got chaff in the winter. He's an EMS case most certainly not caused by commercial feeds. Even now he only gets chaff (getting harder and harder to buy unmollassed stuff round here which pees me off!) and speedibeet in the winter. I can't even buy normal beet at my local 'large' feed merchant.
 
Tnavas said:
It does all boil down to the fact that people feed their horses far more than we used to. I remember as a child/teenager my pony rarely ever had hard feed - I rode and competed off grass alone.
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^^this^^
with a bit of molassed (horrors!) sugar beet in winter, maybe some oats if pony was working really hard.
None of the ponies on my old riding school/yard ever had lami and they were all out eating the green stuff every day.
 
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