why buy branded feed?

[Tnavas]

If the market was suddenly stripped back to the early eighties, with only nuts, oats, barley, bran sugar beet and flaked maize available as horse food, then I believe we would still have fat horses, because people like to feed their animals and they like to see them fat.

If you are talking about peer pressure, then In my opinion, modern showing has more to answer for overweight horses than the feed manufacturers pushing food onto owners.

Fat show ponies has been debated for many decades - it was discussed constantly when I was in the show ring in the late 60's to when I came to NZ in the late 80's - it's a major topic of discussion here too.

Marketing of commercial foods, all the advertising in magazines traps people into thinking that to feed hard feed is the norm whereas it used to be done only if the horse was in hard work.

Though I generally won the Best Condition and Turnout classes, one judge - a vet remarked on the fitness of my pony! No hard feed, just quality work off grass.

 

[Tnavas]

Lets remember those rules of feeding

1 Feed according to Condition, Work and Temperament - the most important!

2 Feed only Good quality foodstuffs

3 Feed sufficient Fibre preferably fibre should make up 75% of every hard feed, never less than 50%

4 Feed Little and Often - stomach the size of a rugby ball

5 Make No sudden changes

6 Feed at the Same time each day

7 Feed something Succulent every day - important if horse is on restricted grass or is stabled

8 Do not work after a full feed however to reduce problems with ulcers feed a double handful of damped chaff or Haylage 30 mins prior to work - stops the acid splashing around

9 Water freely available at all times - if not possible water before feeding

10 Keep water & feed utensils clean

11 Know the weight of the volume of food in the scoop you usually use or Weigh all feed.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

^^this^^
with a bit of molassed (horrors!) sugar beet in winter, maybe some oats if pony was working really hard.
None of the ponies on my old riding school/yard ever had lami and they were all out eating the green stuff every day.

The riding school I started out on in 1950/60, had one forty acre field for about seven hard working riding school seven horses [they did six hours on a Saturday], and they were all stalled in winter , New Zealand rugs were unknown until the 70's.
They all got fed oats, bran and chaff [homemade with chopped hay and oat straw] every day with molasses in winter. Horse nuts were considered to be pretty exotic!

In Ye Olden Days, the grass they were on was more likely to be old permanent pasture with herbs and hedges.... proper farming with mixed grazing, sheep and maybe cattle.

Nowadays a lot of farmers have sold off their cattle who were grazing on ryegrass leys, pretty much a monoculture, the idea being to produce milk or fatten stock. This type of grass is not particularly suitable for horses: the horse evolved on prairies and steppes where they roamed wild, browsing as they went. Their basic digestive system has not evolved to cope with the sort of thing ruminants like, cows can eat up lots of bulk, then they lie down and it burbles about in their stomachs till all the energy has entered the bloodstream.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I will be using oil once we really get going. Supermarket rapeseed oil, added to his cubes.

You don't seem to understand mrsd, that I AM feeding unmolassed beet in spring and summer. The only difference is that I am prepared to soak it in masses more water than it needs and drain it before feeding. I do that because it costs one third of what it costs to buy the only unmolassed beet my supplier will stock.

Of course cubes can be more energy dense per kilo than straight oats. It depends a lot on the level of fibre and water.

Round here we pay £8.50 for molassed nuts and £12.50 for quick beet. I still think my method is quick, and also foolproof if anyone else is feeding.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Agree with all this, one poster [maybe another thread] seemed to consider the time taken to eat up would be too long for a large horse..... but I sort of think that this is not relevant for most people. Though this horse was usually out 24/7.
I feed and leave them to it, in fact I don't want them gobbling up, as mastication is an important part of the digestive process, and if they are fed breakfast at 7.00 am, they will be ok for an hour or so without hay.
The other point is that large horses have larger eating apparatus than e.g. show ponies, so I assume all horses would take approximately the same time to eat up their dinner. Given that there will be individual variation.

 

[cptrayes]

That was me MrsD. I can't feed and leave them to it, I have two horses who live together but have vastly different energy needs and must be fed apart then put back with each other when they have finished.

If I was to feed oats, as I have tried to do, the volume is so huge that I would have to feed three times.

I can avoid doing that by feeding cubes and my horse does well on them.

My experience is that there are vast differences between how fast one horse and another eat, and this horse is one of the slowest on the planet

Cubes suit us both very well, and I am lucky to have a Farm Supplies shop selling own brand cubes which seem to me to be of a very high standard, made locally by a fairly big name in horse nutrition, so I gain all ways round

 

[Stacy_W]

What problem does your pony have that makes 14% protein an issue?

I ask because there used to be a widely believed myth that high protein caused laminitis and if you've been told that, he may be safe with grass nuts after all??

My pony can't have high protein because of liver issues, so has to have less than 10% in anything I feed her, ideally. Perhaps this is the same problem for this poster? Too much protein can be a problem for horses with certain ailments.

 

[Tnavas]

My pony can't have high protein because of liver issues, so has to have less than 10% in anything I feed her, ideally. Perhaps this is the same problem for this poster? Too much protein can be a problem for horses with certain ailments.

NO HORSE OR PONY needs more than 8 - 10% Protein in its diet UNLESS it is a young growing equine, a broodmare in foal (even then high protein levels can cause the placenta to be too tough for the foal to break through at birth) or a racehorse/advanced eventer in training or competition.

Anything higher is wasted, puts a strain on the horses kidneys and is a total waste of money.

All these feeds with so high levels of protein are crazy especially when Lysine is added as this makes so much of the protein available to the horse.

 

[TPO]

Not read all the replies but I think people feed branded feeds because...

1- they trust brands and it removes all responsibility from them. If labels/ adverts claim that it does x, y & z then they are good owners for buying it and they don't have to look into it any further. I've NEVER seen a set of scales in a feed room apart from mine and never seen anyone feed the recommended amount (or even read the feeding guidelines let alone ingredients)

2- good marketing on behalf of feed companies. Basically tapping into the food= love mentality so guilting owners into feeding. Heck, there's even feeds aimed at fat horses?! Ironically while I see horses over/incorrectly fed with bucket feeds same horses don't get adlib forage.

3- People don't know how to feed, equine dietary requirements or even the basic golden rules of feeding. Not just feeding, but in general, there seems to be a decline in knowledge before/ during owning horses. It's too easy to be ignorant.

 

[khalswitz]

Not read all the replies but I think people feed branded feeds because...

1- they trust brands and it removes all responsibility from them. If labels/ adverts claim that it does x, y & z then they are good owners for buying it and they don't have to look into it any further. I've NEVER seen a set of scales in a feed room apart from mine and never seen anyone feed the recommended amount (or even read the feeding guidelines let alone ingredients)

2- good marketing on behalf of feed companies. Basically tapping into the food= love mentality so guilting owners into feeding. Heck, there's even feeds aimed at fat horses?! Ironically while I see horses over/incorrectly fed with bucket feeds same horses don't get adlib forage.

3- People don't know how to feed, equine dietary requirements or even the basic golden rules of feeding. Not just feeding, but in general, there seems to be a decline in knowledge before/ during owning horses. It's too easy to be ignorant.

Very, very assumptive and generalised. Like I've stated several times in my posts, straights DON'T work for my horse. He can't have any cereals due to EPSM so oats/barley are out, and won't eat a big enough volume of beet to meet his requirements, won't touch linseed or when I add oil to the feed... What do you expect me to feed him? With a branded feed I can get low sugar/starch, high fibre, high oil, in a pellet form which Geoff will actually eat and will provide him with enough energy to event/do endurance.

Therefore saying that feeding branded feeds is laziness/ignorance, and means you don't weight your feed etc is a sign of ignorance in my opinion! Plenty of people use branded feeds who do a hell of a lot of research into what they are feeding, the ingredients and the effects on the animal.

I read the labels so much, and research online what it doesn't say on the labels, to the point where I've had salesmen at the shows put their hands up and say I'm better speaking to their nutritionist because I know more about the feed ingredients and my requirements compared to that than they do!!

WRT the protein issue in feeds, I had an interesting discussion with a nutritionist the other day about this. My feeling was that protein levels in balancers are high, however she told em that you have to bear in mind the WHOLE diet. Say you're aiming for 10% protein max, a 25% protein balancer seems crazy, but if the horse gets no other hard feed but a straw-based chaff say, and then they live on grass and hay, where the protein levels are low, the weight of balancer versus the weight of forage means the % protein averages out at around 8-10% or so. If you were feeding kilos rather than grams of balancer it would be a different story. My lad is on a stud balancer with higher than normal protein levels, as due to his EPSM he requires higher protein levels to maintain his muscular health (his muscles atrophy very quickly when any amount of starch/sugar is in his diet, or when the protein levels drop - I have to be quick to up my balancer in the winter when on hay). So I feed him slightly higher amount of protein than average, along with extra Vitamin E etc to aid with muscle health.

 

[TPO]

Very, very assumptive and generalised. Like I've stated several times in my posts, straights DON'T work for my horse. He can't have any cereals due to EPSM so oats/barley are out, and won't eat a big enough volume of beet to meet his requirements, won't touch linseed or when I add oil to the feed... What do you expect me to feed him? With a branded feed I can get low sugar/starch, high fibre, high oil, in a pellet form which Geoff will actually eat and will provide him with enough energy to event/do endurance.

Therefore saying that feeding branded feeds is laziness/ignorance, and means you don't weight your feed etc is a sign of ignorance in my opinion! Plenty of people use branded feeds who do a hell of a lot of research into what they are feeding, the ingredients and the effects on the animal.

I read the labels so much, and research online what it doesn't say on the labels, to the point where I've had salesmen at the shows put their hands up and say I'm better speaking to their nutritionist because I know more about the feed ingredients and my requirements compared to that than they do!!

WRT the protein issue in feeds, I had an interesting discussion with a nutritionist the other day about this. My feeling was that protein levels in balancers are high, however she told em that you have to bear in mind the WHOLE diet. Say you're aiming for 10% protein max, a 25% protein balancer seems crazy, but if the horse gets no other hard feed but a straw-based chaff say, and then they live on grass and hay, where the protein levels are low, the weight of balancer versus the weight of forage means the % protein averages out at around 8-10% or so. If you were feeding kilos rather than grams of balancer it would be a different story. My lad is on a stud balancer with higher than normal protein levels, as due to his EPSM he requires higher protein levels to maintain his muscular health (his muscles atrophy very quickly when any amount of starch/sugar is in his diet, or when the protein levels drop - I have to be quick to up my balancer in the winter when on hay). So I feed him slightly higher amount of protein than average, along with extra Vitamin E etc to aid with muscle health.

If you read my first sentence I said I'd not read all replies so clearly was not aimed at you or anyone else.

It was a a general reply to a general question.

Of course there are people who read, investigate and question but by and large that's the minority. You're not alone in asking questions that the companies themselves can't answer.

However I'd still say you, and owners like you, are sadly the minority. A straw poll on most yards and you'd struggle to find owners who know the ingredients in what they are feeding and feed on the basis that the label is conditioning/comp/good doer and they trust brands to deliver. So ' trusting' the brand absolves responsibility and, as you'll know, is far easier than putting the work in yourself.

 

[khalswitz]

If you read my first sentence I said I'd not read all replies so clearly was not aimed at you or anyone else.

It was a a general reply to a general question.

Sorry I missed that part - obviously got carried away with the rest of your post!!

I do agree about trust and people over-trusting the feed companies, but I think in general I would trusted a branded feed more than say, a white bag cube where you really have very little to rely on.

 

[Tnavas]

khalwitz - grass does h ave the required protein levels for an average horse - yet again the 'Sales pitch' to force people into buying their products - you rarely need a protein balancer for the majority of horses - they do get the protein they need from the grass, hay and basic feeds that they get.

An interesting read about the effect of CO2 on the Protein levels of grass.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/blogs/...ned-a-lot-about-grass-213203671.html?view=all

and this

http://www.mobilefarmapps.com/articles/grazing-and-grass-quality.html

and this - the norm for Protein levels
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/10/03/timothy-hay-horses-friend/#axzz2kGX1mQG8

 

[khalswitz]

khalwitz - grass does h ave the required protein levels for an average horse - yet again the 'Sales pitch' to force people into buying their products - you rarely need a protein balancer for the majority of horses - they do get the protein they need from the grass, hay and basic feeds that they get.

An interesting read about the effect of CO2 on the Protein levels of grass.

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/blogs/...ned-a-lot-about-grass-213203671.html?view=all

and this

http://www.mobilefarmapps.com/articles/grazing-and-grass-quality.html

and this - the norm for Protein levels
http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/10/03/timothy-hay-horses-friend/#axzz2kGX1mQG8

Your links are interesting, but only show protein levels for alfalfa (which is known to be high as a legume rather than a grass), and timothy (which is significantly lower than alfalfa, and is considered high compared to your rye grasses etc), neither of which are the 'normal' hay or grass types in the UK, obviously I don't know about NZ.

Like your article says, protein is LOWER in grasses now than it ever was before, and getting lower all the time. Grasses are becoming more sugary and lush, but this dilutes out the protein content. You can have higher protein in early spring grass before the real flush of growth, but most late spring/summer/autumn grass is significantly lower in protein, as are your hays, and to a lesser degree your haylages.

Alfalfa is an exception, but that isn't a common forage type in the UK except as a chaff feed for bulking out bucket feeds - doesn't tend to be the main dietary forage source.

Protein levels aren't so low in spring/summer grass that a horse will have a huge lack in dietary protein IF there is a decent level of lysine in your grasses (often not the case in which case it doesn't matter what the protein content is, as lysine is your limiting amino acid). However in restricted pasture/mainly preserved forage diets/and grass paddocks out side optimum conditions in early spring, a source of protein particularly in the form of lysine is a bonus to the diet rather than an excess.

Sorry if you think it's a sales pitch, it's what I've been taught at uni (and we're not feed company sponsored I promise), and scientifically it makes sense. However I will agree that balancers are supposed to have feeding rates modified throughout the year, with the least in early spring and the most in winter, which most people do not do, in which case money is being thrown away and the diet not optimal.

 

[hnmisty]

If you buy branded horse food when you know own brand are available, why? I'm really intrigued.

Why buy Nestle shreddies, for example, when the Morrison's "malted wheaties" are exactly the same? (This is a question I have been pondering. I buy Shreddies if they're on offer, otherwise it's malted wheaties for me).