Why can't/don't people fit tack correctly?

[Orca]

I have a saddle position query. Could anyone possibly spare the time to have a look at a PM photo for me please?

I've already had saddle fit assessed by a saddler but given some of the horror stories I've read (and my own innate fear of damaging horses via tacking mistakes!), I'd like a second opinion or two on placement before backing. My own confidence is lacking because Orca doesn't have a natural saddle seat (being a HW lady) and I know I'm placing her saddle unnecessarily far forwards in order to avoid her loins (my biggest concern). This of course will potentially impede her (big) shoulder movement.

Any help from those with experience in HW cob shapes would be most appreciated, most specifically, how far back from the placement in the pic can I safely go

n.b. I know the saddle 'fits' - I wouldn't ask anyone to offer responsibility for assessing that. It's just the precise placement which has me a little concerned. All opinions welcome!

 

[Enfys]

1. So glad someone else has pointed out the Dutch gag/single rein combo. Would the abusers ever use a pelham with just the curb rein?

Yes, I would, what is the difference between a Pelham on the curb and a Weymouth? Other than the fact that a bradoon is not also being employed, oh, and the fact that in the UK most non dressage horses (and riders) are not trained to the curb because that is not the way.

To use a Pelham on the curb, or a shanked bit, or any other bit on the curb (including bubble bits, 3 ring gags, dutch gags,or what ever they are variously labelled as, which should, to act correctly, be used with a curb strap) you have to understand the physics of the bit, the length of the purchase (section above the bit connected to the cheekpiece) is vital to the way the bit acts and to the cue the horse receives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_bit

 

[WindyStacks]

So you would actually use a pelham with ONE set of reins - on the curb only? *boggle*

 

[Enfys]

So you would actually use a pelham with ONE set of reins - on the curb only? *boggle*

Yes,

 

[Enfys]

Gah. Keyboard not working. I would not use a fixed mouth bit at all, as cues are not as specific, I ride my mare in a high port correction bit, which is, basically a Pelham as it has two rings.

I will add that my horse is trained to a shanked bit, in the UK I would exhaust other avenues before using a curb alone. I rode my hunter in a LS myler combination with double reins although I was in the minority in doing that.

 

[Tnavas]

Ok, question ref correct use of tack. Do you / should you use gamgee under exercise or stable bandages?
When growing up I understood gamgee should be used, but never had occasion to bandage.
When my pony did her check ligament 2 years ago my vet said to box rest and bandage and showed me how to bandage and didn't use gamgee. My pony had several progress checks where the vet removed her bandages herself and never commented on my lack of gamgee.
However chatting to my instructor the other week she said gamgee should be used.
Now I'm confused.
I want to start using bandages again for when I'm lunging and want to make sure I'm doing the right thing.
So gamgee, yes or no?
(These bandages are fleece for the first half then elasticated for the 2nd half)

I personally would always put something under bandages to even out the pressure and to prevent pressure sores. My vet of many years always said for us grooms to bandage as our bandaging skills were better than his. Seeing the state my young horse came back to me from his loan home with an injury I really don't know what the modern vets are taught. The bandage applied by the vet to a wound just below the hock, had no padding under, covered no more than the wound and had slipped and was actually in the wound rather than over it. The wound required a figure eight bandage.

 

[Tnavas]

So you would actually use a pelham with ONE set of reins - on the curb only? *boggle*

You can, but you use either roundings or split reins. Both link the two parts together making the bit action more subtle. Often seen on children's ponies where little hands cannot manage two sets of reins. It is not used with one rein attached just to the curb.

 

[ester]

some people do use it with one rein attached to the curb, I think that is the point as it is being compared to using a dutch gag with one rein which many, many of us do! To no ill effect .

 

[Tnavas]

some people do use it with one rein attached to the curb, I think that is the point as it is being compared to using a dutch gag with one rein which many, many of us do! To no ill effect .

It ha absolutely no comparison to the action of a Dutch Gag which elevates the head and has no curb chain. A Pelham with a curb chain and used just on the curb rein works on the poll and jaw causing the horse to drop its head and hopefully soften at the jaw

 

[Dave's Mam]

1. So glad someone else has pointed out the Dutch gag/single rein combo. Would the abusers ever use a pelham with just the curb rein?

2. Bits with an inch hanging out each side of the mouth and way too low.

3. Mix & match bridles - personally I've not come across this (Stubben aficionado - they always seem to fit) - but I have noticed that shiny patent-"leather" coloured monstrosities purchased from eBay don't seem to have been measured to fit a horse.

On the subject of bits... I have spent many years at German dressage yards and I've been wracking my brains trying to remember if anyone ever used anything more "harsh" than a Pelham (always with two reins). I don't remember hanging cheeks, waterfords (for the love of god), gags or anything else people *need* to control their horses...

Hanging cheek snaffles are not severe.

 

[ester]

It ha absolutely no comparison to the action of a Dutch Gag which elevates the head and has no curb chain. A Pelham with a curb chain and used just on the curb rein works on the poll and jaw causing the horse to drop its head and hopefully soften at the jaw

Errr firstly it wasn't me making the comparison, secondly my dutch gag has a curb strap and many would argue it is correct to have one to prevent over rotation and excessive poll pressure.

 

[little_critter]

I personally would always put something under bandages to even out the pressure and to prevent pressure sores. My vet of many years always said for us grooms to bandage as our bandaging skills were better than his. Seeing the state my young horse came back to me from his loan home with an injury I really don't know what the modern vets are taught. The bandage applied by the vet to a wound just below the hock, had no padding under, covered no more than the wound and had slipped and was actually in the wound rather than over it. The wound required a figure eight bandage.

Thanks for the answer (and illusion100). I'll dig out my gamgee and trim it down to exercise size and see if I can wrangle it into place.
I really struggled before trying to hold the gamgee in place and get the bandage on correctly. Does the gamgee mound to shape after a while? It seems to have a mind of its own.

 

[little_critter]

Errr firstly it wasn't me making the comparison, secondly my dutch gag has a curb strap and many would argue it is correct to have one to prevent over rotation and excessive poll pressure.

I believe Heather Moffet sometimes uses just the curb rein of a Pelham. I guess it's no different to riding in a double and not using the snaffle rein (which you quite often see in classical riding)
But you must have absolutely perfect hands.

 

[Tnavas]

Hanging cheek snaffles are not severe.

No they definitely aren't. Lovely bits, great for youngsters and those that like to get their tongue over the bit. Contrary to popular myth they DO NOT create poll pressure as the bit is not held down at a fixed point in the mouth, like a curb is.

They are very static, quiet bits. I swap my Fulmer for a hanging cheek for shows as they have the same effect and look tidier.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I have a saddle position query. Could anyone possibly spare the time to have a look at a PM photo for me please?

I've already had saddle fit assessed by a saddler but given some of the horror stories I've read (and my own innate fear of damaging horses via tacking mistakes!), I'd like a second opinion or two on placement before backing. My own confidence is lacking because Orca doesn't have a natural saddle seat (being a HW lady) and I know I'm placing her saddle unnecessarily far forwards in order to avoid her loins (my biggest concern). This of course will potentially impede her (big) shoulder movement.

Any help from those with experience in HW cob shapes would be most appreciated, most specifically, how far back from the placement in the pic can I safely go

n.b. I know the saddle 'fits' - I wouldn't ask anyone to offer responsibility for assessing that. It's just the precise placement which has me a little concerned. All opinions welcome!

By all means feel free to send me a PM, I have a Westphalian Kaltblut (Draft) horse and a very chunky cob, so am used to HW ladies. I find that the saddle needs to be cut with straight flaps to accommodate their massive shoulders, many GP saddles don't fit properly.

 

[ROMANY 1959]

Last summer at a local show I politely advised a novice rider she had her noseband fastened over the bit cheek straps!!! She told me to p*** off! Her horse refused at first jump, and at 2 nd attempt she was on the floor...you can't tell some folk!

 

[Cortez]

So you would actually use a pelham with ONE set of reins - on the curb only? *boggle*

Why are you boggling? A Pelham with reins only on the lower ring is a curb bit which is what all older/trained Western horses go in, and most of the horses of Spain and Portugal. The bit is not severe if the rider knows how to ride, and the horse is properly trained.

 

[ester]

Cortez I think arguably it must be actually nicer for the horse to have the pressure applied split between poll, curb, bars and lips rather than just the bars and lips. It certainly seems to suit some.

 

[Cortez]

Cortez I think arguably it must be actually nicer for the horse to have the pressure applied split between poll, curb, bars and lips rather than just the bars and lips. It certainly seems to suit some.

Riding on the curb alone, one handed, is the ultimate goal of all classical schools. It's how we train our display horses, and they are all very light, balanced and happy - as long as the rider knows how to ride. But put a grabby, dead-handed, snaffle-accustomed rider on and it all goes south very quickly. I'd much rather have an actor who's never ridden before on my horses than the average, riding school trained "experienced" rider.

But we're off-topic now: who knows how to fit a double bridle properly?

 

[Illusion100]

But we're off-topic now

Yeah Cortez, stop it!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

But we're off-topic now: who knows how to fit a double bridle properly?

Yes ta
*but get extremely irritated when there is no lip strap, also if missing from Pelhams*

 

[thatsmygirl]

Oh don't ... I get told I'm 'OCD'... No.. I just do my beds properly!

Oh don't get me started on mucking out, stables where I keep mine are disgusting I wouldn't keep pigs in them. I'm very OCD about mine and have to even flatten them down to the same level with the banks all the same high. I see straw chucked in stables hardly broken up and a bloody mess

 

[Enfys]

Oh no, pigs LOVE making their own beds, give them a few bales of straw and they are very happy little piggies.

 

[PolarSkye]

I'm digressing, but what irks me is people who don't look after their horses properly full stop. It's not just about tack fit (although that's super important), it's about all round management.

Beds - I don't care whether they're straw or shavings, deep or shallow, they should be clean . . . and if your horse has stood in all day due to box rest, worming, poor weather, etc., for God's sake skip it out . . . standing in their own filth is bad for their feet and their lungs. Don't be lazy.

Rugs - If a horse has come in and stayed in its turnouts, take a moment to readjust/reset the rugs before you turn out in the morning, check that it's not hanging off the horse's side, pulling on its withers, leg straps aren't cutting in, etc.

Grooming - If your horse is dry and you have the time, groom it! Running a brush and your hands over your horse gives you valuable clues as to your horse's welfare - it's just good management. While you're at it, clean your brushes regularly.

Feed bowls - please clean them every day - pressure wash them, scrub them, I don't care, just make sure they're clean.

Water - same as feed bowls - scrub water buckets every day and provide fresh drinking water - don't just top up existing.

Forage - ALL stabled horses should have ad lib hay - if they're overweight, soak it, mix it with straw, put it in a trickle feeder net but please don't leave it all night with one slice - unless it's a micro mini/the size of a hamster!

Rugs (yes again) - if it's a native type, has grown a coat like a yak and is morbidly obese for the love of God please don't put a rain sheet on it because it's ******* raining. Learn how to rug and how the equine coat behaves. Rugging your hairy native with a rain sheet because it's snowy is counterproductive - it can't use its coat the way its morphology intended - flattening the coat means it can't raise it/trap hair/keep warm . . . either leave it naked or clip it and then rug. Learn which rugs do what, know your horse and rug accordingly.

Don't berate your horse for being a horse . . . work with/not against him/her. Be kind. Be generous. Listen. They're speaking to you . . . all the time. I'm not suggesting you tolerate rudeness or nastiness . . . but be appropriate with your response and think before you act.

And, yes, please don't let saddle cloths pull down on withers, don't do up your girth/curb chain/crank cavesson/cheek piece too tight . . . make sure the bit doesn't pinch/rub the bars/hit the roof of the horse's mouth. Tuck every strap/flap, etc. into its keeper - make sure your tack is clean - anything that rubs or flaps or pinches means either pain or distraction to your horse - and that's neither fair nor kind.

In short. Be kind. They trust us. We should do everything in our power, every single day that they are in our care, to reward that trust, and make sure they are as healthy, well adjusted and well taken care of as possible.

It's not rocket science.

P

 

[Cowpony]

I'm digressing, but what irks me is people who don't look after their horses properly full stop. It's not just about tack fit (although that's super important), it's about all round management.

Beds - I don't care whether they're straw or shavings, deep or shallow, they should be clean . . . and if your horse has stood in all day due to box rest, worming, poor weather, etc., for God's sake skip it out . . . standing in their own filth is bad for their feet and their lungs. Don't be lazy.

Rugs - If a horse has come in and stayed in its turnouts, take a moment to readjust/reset the rugs before you turn out in the morning, check that it's not hanging off the horse's side, pulling on its withers, leg straps aren't cutting in, etc.

Grooming - If your horse is dry and you have the time, groom it! Running a brush and your hands over your horse gives you valuable clues as to your horse's welfare - it's just good management. While you're at it, clean your brushes regularly.

Feed bowls - please clean them every day - pressure wash them, scrub them, I don't care, just make sure they're clean.

Water - same as feed bowls - scrub water buckets every day and provide fresh drinking water - don't just top up existing.

Forage - ALL stabled horses should have ad lib hay - if they're overweight, soak it, mix it with straw, put it in a trickle feeder net but please don't leave it all night with one slice - unless it's a micro mini/the size of a hamster!

Rugs (yes again) - if it's a native type, has grown a coat like a yak and is morbidly obese for the love of God please don't put a rain sheet on it because it's ******* raining. Learn how to rug and how the equine coat behaves. Rugging your hairy native with a rain sheet because it's snowy is counterproductive - it can't use its coat the way its morphology intended - flattening the coat means it can't raise it/trap hair/keep warm . . . either leave it naked or clip it and then rug. Learn which rugs do what, know your horse and rug accordingly.

Don't berate your horse for being a horse . . . work with/not against him/her. Be kind. Be generous. Listen. They're speaking to you . . . all the time. I'm not suggesting you tolerate rudeness or nastiness . . . but be appropriate with your response and think before you act.

And, yes, please don't let saddle cloths pull down on withers, don't do up your girth/curb chain/crank cavesson/cheek piece too tight . . . make sure the bit doesn't pinch/rub the bars/hit the roof of the horse's mouth. Tuck every strap/flap, etc. into its keeper - make sure your tack is clean - anything that rubs or flaps or pinches means either pain or distraction to your horse - and that's neither fair nor kind.

In short. Be kind. They trust us. We should do everything in our power, every single day that they are in our care, to reward that trust, and make sure they are as healthy, well adjusted and well taken care of as possible.

It's not rocket science.

P

Hear hear!

 

[Nappy Croc]

Another Pelham on curb only rider here, as is similar in the front of week before lasts H+H cover too

I'm a live and let live sort of person if it's doing no harm TBH! Maybe I give people too much credit for assuming they know their horse/tack best.

 

[EmmasMummy]

I'm digressing, but what irks me is people who don't look after their horses properly full stop. It's not just about tack fit (although that's super important), it's about all round management.

Beds - I don't care whether they're straw or shavings, deep or shallow, they should be clean . . . and if your horse has stood in all day due to box rest, worming, poor weather, etc., for God's sake skip it out . . . standing in their own filth is bad for their feet and their lungs. Don't be lazy.

Rugs - If a horse has come in and stayed in its turnouts, take a moment to readjust/reset the rugs before you turn out in the morning, check that it's not hanging off the horse's side, pulling on its withers, leg straps aren't cutting in, etc.

Grooming - If your horse is dry and you have the time, groom it! Running a brush and your hands over your horse gives you valuable clues as to your horse's welfare - it's just good management. While you're at it, clean your brushes regularly.

Feed bowls - please clean them every day - pressure wash them, scrub them, I don't care, just make sure they're clean.

Water - same as feed bowls - scrub water buckets every day and provide fresh drinking water - don't just top up existing.

Forage - ALL stabled horses should have ad lib hay - if they're overweight, soak it, mix it with straw, put it in a trickle feeder net but please don't leave it all night with one slice - unless it's a micro mini/the size of a hamster!

Rugs (yes again) - if it's a native type, has grown a coat like a yak and is morbidly obese for the love of God please don't put a rain sheet on it because it's ******* raining. Learn how to rug and how the equine coat behaves. Rugging your hairy native with a rain sheet because it's snowy is counterproductive - it can't use its coat the way its morphology intended - flattening the coat means it can't raise it/trap hair/keep warm . . . either leave it naked or clip it and then rug. Learn which rugs do what, know your horse and rug accordingly.

Don't berate your horse for being a horse . . . work with/not against him/her. Be kind. Be generous. Listen. They're speaking to you . . . all the time. I'm not suggesting you tolerate rudeness or nastiness . . . but be appropriate with your response and think before you act.

And, yes, please don't let saddle cloths pull down on withers, don't do up your girth/curb chain/crank cavesson/cheek piece too tight . . . make sure the bit doesn't pinch/rub the bars/hit the roof of the horse's mouth. Tuck every strap/flap, etc. into its keeper - make sure your tack is clean - anything that rubs or flaps or pinches means either pain or distraction to your horse - and that's neither fair nor kind.

In short. Be kind. They trust us. We should do everything in our power, every single day that they are in our care, to reward that trust, and make sure they are as healthy, well adjusted and well taken care of as possible.

It's not rocket science.

P

I HATE it when folk would guilt trip me over that one with a fat hairy shetty! "oh look the poor thing must be cold its got snow on it!" NO! It comes from a country with little shelter and has doubled in size due to its coat - which underneath is dry and warm..Jog on!

And the being a horse...........friends OH yanked on the mouth of our pony today, 3 times, before he saw me glaring at him. It was standing still.....just not still enough for him (he is not a horse person!). Needless to say, I now wonder if he was the reason that the Shetland got so pissy about a contact on her mouth! As Pony today then refused a contact from daughter - that is how hard he yanked it. Never letting him lead the pony again, I don't care if its his kid on it. Its my freaking pony.

Over all I do not get how people don't learnt things. I ended up teaching a lot of the kids at yard I was at 10 years ago. They had ponies but couldn't muck out. The YO was going mental as they would replace the WHOLE bed! I think that some riding schools don't teach it as general as they want people to pay extra for horse management courses. I was veyr lucky to be taught by older horsey folk when I was a tweenager.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I'm digressing, but what irks me is people who don't look after their horses properly full stop. It's not just about tack fit (although that's super important), it's about all round management.

Beds - I don't care whether they're straw or shavings, deep or shallow, they should be clean . . . and if your horse has stood in all day due to box rest, worming, poor weather, etc., for God's sake skip it out . . . standing in their own filth is bad for their feet and their lungs. Don't be lazy.

Rugs - If a horse has come in and stayed in its turnouts, take a moment to readjust/reset the rugs before you turn out in the morning, check that it's not hanging off the horse's side, pulling on its withers, leg straps aren't cutting in, etc.

Grooming - If your horse is dry and you have the time, groom it! Running a brush and your hands over your horse gives you valuable clues as to your horse's welfare - it's just good management. While you're at it, clean your brushes regularly.

Feed bowls - please clean them every day - pressure wash them, scrub them, I don't care, just make sure they're clean.

Water - same as feed bowls - scrub water buckets every day and provide fresh drinking water - don't just top up existing.

Forage - ALL stabled horses should have ad lib hay - if they're overweight, soak it, mix it with straw, put it in a trickle feeder net but please don't leave it all night with one slice - unless it's a micro mini/the size of a hamster!

Rugs (yes again) - if it's a native type, has grown a coat like a yak and is morbidly obese for the love of God please don't put a rain sheet on it because it's ******* raining. Learn how to rug and how the equine coat behaves. Rugging your hairy native with a rain sheet because it's snowy is counterproductive - it can't use its coat the way its morphology intended - flattening the coat means it can't raise it/trap hair/keep warm . . . either leave it naked or clip it and then rug. Learn which rugs do what, know your horse and rug accordingly.

Don't berate your horse for being a horse . . . work with/not against him/her. Be kind. Be generous. Listen. They're speaking to you . . . all the time. I'm not suggesting you tolerate rudeness or nastiness . . . but be appropriate with your response and think before you act.

And, yes, please don't let saddle cloths pull down on withers, don't do up your girth/curb chain/crank cavesson/cheek piece too tight . . . make sure the bit doesn't pinch/rub the bars/hit the roof of the horse's mouth. Tuck every strap/flap, etc. into its keeper - make sure your tack is clean - anything that rubs or flaps or pinches means either pain or distraction to your horse - and that's neither fair nor kind.

In short. Be kind. They trust us. We should do everything in our power, every single day that they are in our care, to reward that trust, and make sure they are as healthy, well adjusted and well taken care of as possible.

It's not rocket science.

P

This. With bells on.

 

[Overread]

Over all I do not get how people don't learnt things. I ended up teaching a lot of the kids at yard I was at 10 years ago. I think that some riding schools don't teach it as general as they want people to pay extra for horse management courses. I was veyr lucky to be taught by older horsey folk when I was a tweenager.

I think the other problem is repetition. The schools might teach a subject, but if they only do mucking out once and then never again then the students won't learn. Sure its not rocket science and something like mucking out is really basic; but at the end of the day if you only ever do it once or twice you won't learn. This is even more the case if students have, say, only 1 lesson a week so only one point of teaching contact to learn in.

Another factor is that sometimes someone is taught and then put to work and that work is not reviewed enough in the early stages. Thus resulting in them quickly cutting corners or making repeat mistakes which, when not chased up on, become habits that have to be unlearned before they can re-learn the proper way again.

 

[fatpiggy]

I think it could be a combination of a few things, but primarily because people want instant results these days. You wouldn't buy a helicopter having had 3 lessons but that is exactly what people do with horses and then cheerfully say that they will learn everything as they go along, no problem. Well of course we HONE our skills with experience and you can't learn about everything before you are let loose with your own horse, but you do need to have some basic knowledge before you start. I know of at least two cases personally, where someone bought a horse without any knowledge of how to even put a headcollar on and pick out the hooves, let alone tack up and feed correctly. Horses can be way too cheap to buy and any numpty can pick one up for a few hundred pounds. I never had the benefit of riding lessons, and taught myself from scratch, and then about horse care and management - entirely from books and the one magazine I was allowed to have each month. That was in the day when magazines were full of interesting articles written for adults with above average IQs, as opposed to lots of pretty pictures and not much else that we tend to see today. I watched other owners and riders really carefully, and when possible, asked questions. I was 32 before I got my horse but I felt well equipped to be a horse owner by that time. Of course we never stop learning (or we shouldn't) so you have to keep your mind open to what others have learned before us too, although I've never been a sheep who follows whatever fashion, simply because everyone else does. Today people don't seem to want to put in the time to study, learn and apply and repeat until it the results appear - far easier to buy a gadget and look impressive to your friends. It isn't just horses either. Look how many people get a dog but aren't prepared to train it, or train it to be nasty by taunting and teasing it and then they wonder why it bit their girlfriend's baby. It makes me so cross that music is rarely taught in schools these days. It teaches you self-discipline (home practice), group discipline (no wanna-be centres of attention), dedication, mixing with all age groups and social groups, being punctual, how to listen to instruction and take criticism, how to help others who aren't learning so fast etc etc etc. Everything that children today are lacking.