Why can't horses talk? dilemma..........

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lucky7

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I have a bit of a dilemma and a decision to make.
Basically i have 2 horses, i will always have 2 as i have my own land so i need two together for company :) the plan was as soon as my current baby has been backed i would sell one then i would buy another baby to bring on and sell. I love all the groundwork involved in with a youngster and the sense of achievement, i do all groundwork/long reining etc myself then i have someone in for a week to ride away (late autumn of 3rd year), turn away till end of winter, back into work slowly for the spring do a few local shows then sell on as a 4yr old (this was the plan!) i still have horse A as i really like her. She is like a security blanket.
Now horse A, a Cob, i have a strong attachment too and i didn't want to sell her, she is so easy to do, lovely character, hacks alone/in company, nice pop in her, loads etc just a general fab allrounder, thing is she struggles with flat work, She has been ridden by a professional dressage rider who agrees it is a physical issue - maybe mouth? as she feels/look sound (a serious contact/bending/one sideness issue). The pro feels if i carry on schooling her/pushing her or working her through it she may break :( i could spend ££££ trying to find out the cause, then what? besides i had a sad experience with a mare i had previously who ended up being PTS at 7 due to underlying issues.
She is fine when out hacking/jumping etc this problem shows when schooling only, she resists and throws head about and is unsettled in the mouth. These issues started as soon as she was backed but now showing more the more i school her, we have tried everything and cannot find reason, put it down to schooling but its not that either. The dentist is scheduled to come out again for a final check.
pro has suggested i sell her as she will struggle with what i want to do with her and concentrate on the youngster, maybe to someone who just wants to hack/jump etc and no dressage, she is very very safe and not a plod, goes anywhere bold jumper etc but i don't know if she would pass a vetting? no-one can see anything wrong? so am unsure on value
Now my other horse is very nice, section D, well bred and put together, flashy, moves nicely and has the right temperament and as the pro says is probably going to be more suited to what i want to do. He is recently been backed and still very much a baby (he's 3yrs 8 months) and is going sweetly and i feel i do want to keep him and see how he gets on. Now am not out to set the world on fire (as if :P) but i would like to be able to show at county level and do novice/elementary dressage.
Likewise i could bumble along with the cob but i can't help but feel frustrated which isnt fair on neither of us.
So, option A
Sell the cob, keep the baby and concentrate on him - buy another baby to bring on.
Option B
Find a sharer, can still ride the cob, hack/hunt will know she will be safe with me, keep the youngster concentrate on him, no new baby
Option C
My mum rides and is looking for another ned, she would be well suited to mine - loan her long term and get another baby to bring on but possibly lose out on money from a sale?

My head says option A but heart says option C.......and my OH will say option A too................
I have such strong attachments to this horse and really trust her, but deep down i know she's not going to be able to do the things i want her for and its unfair to push her. BUT if i sold her i know i would regret it....................
******, why can't horses talk?!
 
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How about option D..........VET

Seriously how do you know it's mouth related? Does the trainer have X-ray vision?

My mare with KS was fine on hacking/straight lines but as soon as you asked for more in a school that's it she would tense up, resist and then bronc. There could be any number of reasons she is doing this but only a vet would be able fine out.
There is no way would I sell a horses that is not right with out getting a vet to look at it and to be honest it's rather dishonest of you to pass it on to someone else.

Vet work up then take from there.......
 
slightlyconfused said:
How about option D..........VET

Seriously how do you know it's mouth related? Does the trainer have X-ray vision?

My mare with KS was fine on hacking/straight lines but as soon as you asked for more in a school that's it she would tense up, resist and then bronc. There could be any number of reasons she is doing this but only a vet would be able fine out.
There is no way would I sell a horses that is not right with out getting a vet to look at it and to be honest it's rather dishonest of you to pass it on to someone else.

Vet work up then take from there.......
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amymay said:
I like this option.
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I had the vet out September time who couldn't see anything wrong, did a lameness work up, checked her all over, then had physio. The dentist is due out again weekend, going to have a good chat and see if he can shed any light.
 
I agree with the two above.

Whatever results from that i think you will end with option C, as i dont think you will be able to sell her on due to attachment and what if new people try to school her and break her, or sell her on when they find that she wont school.
Could you do a twist on C and offer her to your mum at a reduced price, mum is happy as she gets lovely safe happy hacker, you and OH are happy as you get some costs back.

As for value we bought a 14.2hh Irish cob 6 YO as a safe happy hacker for my mum 2 years ago, we paid nearly £2000 minus any tack. I would say if selling her on then go for that or £2500 (then price can come down) but if you sell to mum try asking for £1000.
 
I too think Option D first, you talk of her with affection I think she deserves that much at least. If, and I hope it is the case, all comes back ok then it has to be Option C surely?
 
Did the work up include being ridden? Sometimes if the problem is only when ridden getting the vet to watch is the answer.

Was X-rays taken at all of her jaw/head/neck/withers?


Other than that maybe try thermal imaging.

I still don't think you will be able yo sell her, in this day and age no one is going to take on a horse that has that type of limitations unless they have money left over just in case something shows it's self later on.
 
Just had a chat with my mum who agrees i don't think i could or want to sell her. My mum having her could be the solution, depending on what the dentist makes of it - if he can't shed light then the vet will be getting a call. I am insured so could always go down that route.

No x rays, not ridden just lunged on a circle, trotted on straight, flexion tests etc where done. Vet couldn't see anything wrong on the surface.
Last mare had KS but different symptoms.......i do hope its nothing as sinister :/
Anyone experiences with similar?
 
I woud go with the thermal imaging - it's only around 50 pounds for a full body picture and maybe a good starting point. If you go to sell you will have to be honest and explain the horse's limitations. I would say that would put 90% of buyers off as the problem is an unknown one. It would not be like selling a slightly arthritic horse as a happy hacker.

My WB was stuffy ridden - he wouldn't track up and generally did not move like the well bred horse he is should. It turned out he had chronic sacro illiac dysfunction and I got LOU. Interestingly the cheapest diagnosis was via a communicator and an iridolgy report (100 pounds) . Sue Dyson confirmed the SI dysfunction (I needed that for my insurance) later - that cost 4,000.
 
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Re-reading your post - it may well be that there is nothing wrong with this horse at all, and it's simply her physique that makes it difficult for her to work in the way the 'pro' would normally expect. She may also find it difficult working on a surface, again due to her physique.
 
Tbh I would be having a very long chat with your vet. The issue may only show itself when being schooled but that doesn't mean she isn't in pain at other times. Have you tried her in hackamore? Obviously it is no less harsh than a bit but if the issue could be in her mouth then that might give you a bit more insight.

If you find nothing wrong, then I would go with option B or C. It sounds like you love this mare very much and I think you owe it to her to find out what's wrong.
 
There is also this, my little appy is not the most best put together horse, unless he is worked in a certain way he struggles with flat work and although he is 15.2 can't jump higher than 3ft or puts his back out......but we didn't buy him to be a show stopper we brought him because he is a one in a million personality for my brother and I can trust anyone on his back.
 
serenityjane said:
You do not mention the saddle-does it fit?
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Hi, yes i did. Had a well recommended saddle fitter out and had a throwgood saddle fitted to her, he then came out again 6 months later to re-check it . Its all fine.

I think dentist, then vet to investigate, she is insured up to 5k for vet fees, something i never had with my previous horse.

Just to add - lately she keeps getting her tongue over the bit, this is something new? she wears a flash and is ridden in a myler hanging cheek.
 
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Have you tried her in a hackamore? I'm not suggesting it as a permanent solution as it may not be suitable for you, but surely it is a fairly quick way of seeing whether the issue is in her mouth or not? You would probably see the difference within a couple of schooling sessions, if not immediately and then you would at least have some clue of what the problem is. Not a foolproof diagnostic tool but a useful one nonetheless.
 
Well I am an option D as well I can't believe you would even consider option A and try to sell a horse you think may have something wrong with it.
 
I go with option B, if the baby will do the things you want then the cob can be something you can relax on rather than having to worry about correctly bringing on the baby. I hope that makes sense but I'm on tramadol and diazepam so it may not!
 
If there's nothing physically wrong with her, maybe you're riding her wrong? Mine is fussy too if you try to ride her "front to back" or what is the norm for riding these days, pull head down and kick kick. If I forget about her head and do plenty of exercises that get her engaging her hind end and "sitting" then she uses herself nicely, carries herself nicely, with no rein contact and no fuss. Happy horse and happy rider.
 
What is her conformation like op? Have you got any side standing shots? Some horses do just find it difficult due to how they are built!
 
B/D: Keep both of them and get the vet for her asap. If you enjoy the bringing on side, why not consider working with a rescue centre to bring on youngstock prior to them being found ridden homes?
 
Has the dentist actually looked at her yet? And is it a proper EDT?

What bit are you using? I've had my cob for nearly 7 years and can be say with some certainty that he does not school properly in anything other than a mullen mouth pelham. in anything else he is tense, grabs on to the bit, fixes his mouth etc. It's just one of his little quirks. He's also tough as old boots generally but everything in his mouth has to be right.

Eta - just seen you mentioned the bit. Is it jointed? I'd ask the dentist's advice on am alternative. A lot of cobs like a thin mullen mouth.
 
Agree with this, I've just changed my chunky cob to a mullen mouth eggbut from a french link loose ring snaffle and he seems much happier now :)
 
My cob also goes best in a mullen mouth or bitless, wont tolerate jointed bits of any kind, think it is to do with a thick tongue and low palate, might be worth trying :)
 
Well bit of an update. I rode her today and noticed when i ask for right bend she was throwing her head up and really resisting, yet left bend there where no problems. On the straight she took up the contact nicely inluding on the right rein, no leaning etc......now the head thing she has never done, but she was doing this with the trainer the other day. I took her back and really checked her mouth out. Also did some carrot stretches again she found them easy on both sides? had a good feel round her poll and competley checked out her bridle made sure nothing was pinching etc,....Looked inside her mouth and really had a good through check - She seems to have a very sharp edge on her tooth to the outside and when i looked deeper i could see a 2cm cut inside her mouth where obviously this tooth has been rubbing.......poor mare. Thing is the vet did her teeth a few months back and said there wasn't any probs and rasped them. The stiffness/one sidedness has always been there but i think it was improving up until recently when obviously this tooth has been upsetting her. The dentist is due tomorrow so going to have a good chat with him. Fingers crossed. I don't think it will sort the crookedness out but will certainly help what's going on in her mouth.
Will see how she gets on with the dentist then if it makes no difference am getting the vet out to do a through check, find out whats going on.................

A few of you asked about bitting and her conformation and some other questions.
Regarding riding her a certain way - well i had a good think and TBH she seems to go nicer for me than the trainer? probably because i know her very well and what works etc where as trainer rides alot of horses few being cobs and obviously the method she knows works for others doesn't work well for my cob. Yes, she leans and is one sided but i can get her nice and light where as she is more heavy and like a barge boat for trainer.
Conformation is fairly good, she is LW cob very true to type. I did a bit of showing last year and judges liked her alot said she was put together nicely (schooling let us down!)
Bitting wise - was a loose ring lozenge snaffle but leans terribly in it, ridden in a show pelham with a low port and she went beautifully, everyday bit is a myler hanging cheek - its the only bit besides the pelham which she doesn't hang/ lean on the left.
 
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Sounds like you may have found the problem re: tooth. However horse are always naturally one sided, like we're naturally left or right handed, so it could also be that that is her difficult side aswell. It could be that you are weaker one side yourself so may find it harder to correct her. Just ideas. Could also be something not head related, e.g. could be a stomach issue, which would show up in the cecum which sits to the right, if that's sore then she'll be reluctant to bring her right hind under. Not saying any of this applies now just things to be aware of, always good to look at the whole horse. As far as schooling goes it would be worth looking for an instructor more classically minded in your area, as there is no reason why your cob can't perform just as well as any other breed at low levels with the right schooling that will focus on getting her to engage hind end, suppling exercises etc, not pulling her head in and making her look pretty which is what seems to be the norm atm
 
lucky7 said:
Well bit of an update. I rode her today and noticed when i ask for right bend she was throwing her head up and really resisting, yet left bend there where no problems.

now the head thing she has never done, but she was doing this with the trainer the other day.

I took her back and really checked her mouth out.

Looked inside her mouth and really had a good through check -

She seems to have a very sharp edge on her tooth to the outside and when i looked deeper i could see a 2cm cut inside her mouth where obviously this tooth has been rubbing.......poor mare.

Thing is the vet did her teeth a few months back and said there wasn't any probs and rasped them. The stiffness/one sidedness has always been there but i think it was improving up until recently when obviously this tooth has been upsetting her. The dentist is due tomorrow so going to have a good chat with him. Fingers crossed. I don't think it will sort the crookedness out but will certainly help what's going on in her mouth.
Will see how she gets on with the dentist then if it makes no difference am getting the vet out to do a through check, find out whats going on.................

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It sounds like when you ask for right bend the bridle would be putting pressure on the cut/sharp tooth....that would be in my view why she is doing that......also agree that horses can have a stronger and weaker side like us.

You might find she will be sore even after having her teeth done and there might be some remembered pain there as well so be prepared to work through that.

And maybe not have the trainer on her for a while, some people just don't get on with certain horses.

Ridefast also has some very good points that are worth keeping in mind.

Hope it goes okay with the EDT
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Update:

The dentist came out today and had a good chat explained everything she was doing. Low and behold he said her teeth where very sharp. The cut on the inside was due to her bit having nowhere to go when contact was applied it pinched, so he rounded off the tooth so there is adequate room for the bit to go higher in the mouth when pressure applied. He said its the norm for polo ponies and comp horses? He also suggested trying a THICKER bit as he said there would be plenty of room, a mullen mouth was suggested - something even like a happy mouth? Interesting as i have always gone for a thinner bit. I have a straight bar happy mouth knocking about so will give it a whirl see if it makes a difference. Other than the sharp edges and the tooth and bit space he said there is nothing that jumps out. He suggested having her looked at by a physio again if problem is still there. (I think it will be as one sidedness always been there)
I must say i am very disappointed as vet did rasp them a few months back and sounds as though the job was not through :(

Will let you know how she gets on over the next few weeks
 
And, of course, the flash noseband will have been making matters worse by holding her mouth shut, so that she could not avoid the pain. No wonder she has been one sided. You may find that a physio can help because she will have developed her muscles incorrectly as she has been trying to keep as comfortable as possible. IMO it is unlikely but possible that she has developed the tooth problem because of incorrect musculature. If you have used a flash because she opened her mouth, rather than to follow fashion, I think you have found the reason for that.
it would probably be better to use an EDT rather than a vet for teeth in future, although I don't personally like to have a 'bit seat'. I believe that it is better to make the bit accommodate the mouth rather than the other way round.
It will be interesting to hear of her progress over the next few weeks.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
And, of course, the flash noseband will have been making matters worse by holding her mouth shut, so that she could not avoid the pain. No wonder she has been one sided. You may find that a physio can help because she will have developed her muscles incorrectly as she has been trying to keep as comfortable as possible. IMO it is unlikely but possible that she has developed the tooth problem because of incorrect musculature. If you have used a flash because she opened her mouth, rather than to follow fashion, I think you have found the reason for that.
it would probably be better to use an EDT rather than a vet for teeth in future, although I don't personally like to have a 'bit seat'. I believe that it is better to make the bit accommodate the mouth rather than the other way round.
It will be interesting to hear of her progress over the next few weeks.
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I really hope this could be the problem, yes flash was used as opening mouth alot, also would explain why she has been getting tongue over bit, must have been uncomfortable. Yes, dentist is booked out for 6 months time, will not be using the vet for teeth again!

Will keep you posted
 
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